Ealier today when a player tried bluff check on me It came to my attention that . . . There is no sence motive check! This makes me ask, what instead can be used for sence motive? Some one told me Wisdom . . . that seems alittle unballanced in favour of the person pulling the bluff.

Any one got an idea as to what could be use in this skill's place?

Well. Disregarding entirely that there is no way for skill checks to be enforced without a DM present, if two players decide they want to use an opposed skill roll to decide something between themselves, the best way would probably be for one person to decide on a DC for the other person to beat.

Although that can be troublesome, too.

I just roll a wisdom check and if my check beats his roll, then I don't believe the bluff. As sometimes people can be less gullible at certain times.

This removes the need of a messy and subjective DC check creation.

Don't Roll for RP.

Roll only if a DM asks you too.

I guess you can roll if you want to decide how you react to something, though it is irrelevant to anything they roll.

Don't roll for PC roleplaying. If anything, roll to display how high your skill is, if it's something like Perform. Otherwise, just roleplay it out.

Oh, it's getting so hard to understand players today. Why do I even bother. Ho hum. :(

What did you do to my Lovethesuit and Its boundless optimism!!!

Also, don't expect anything by showing your enormously high rolls. One skill that I've noticed is notoriously flaunted is Appraise. Appraise is not an "RP skill" anyways, it's more knowledge-based like Lore than anything else, hence it uses Intelligence and not Charisma.

The only time it might be remotely appropriate for use with PCs is if the Appraising character wants to buy something, but OOCly has no idea what a fair cost would be. In this case, it's best to make the PC merchant aware that your character would know, but you are clueless!

Also, the other side of this should be restated. If you have no skill at bluffing and 10 or less charisma, it's not very nice of you and borderline metagaming to make up a very nice and elaborate lie that gets you out of trouble without making any emotes that would tip off the other PCs that you're lying! It's a very hard thing to discipline yourself into doing, but it's no less important to keep in mind.

Good examples, in my opinion. Let's assume the emoter is being asked if he stole a big sack of gold from the party (which he did!)...

If you have 8 Charisma and no bluff skill... [speaks softly, rubbing his hands back and forth like a twitch] Ehh, no, no! Of course not, I'm not that sort of guy!

If you have 14 charisma and no bluff skill... [frustration crosses his face, but he speaks calmly to explain] Look, I don't have anything. I just want to do my job and get payed.

If you have low charisma, high bluff skill... [sneers, jabbing a finger at the ground and using an accusing tone] Come now! I did my part, and so did you all. I haven't taken anything from you, that's how it is! I'd be one dumb sonuvagun if I did, I mean look how badly we messed up those gnolls.

High charisma, high bluff... [grins reassuringly, holding up his hands defensively] I'm sorry, you must be mistaken. I'm awful sorry you feel that way, but I didn't take anything. To make it up to you though, why don't you take my turn when we arrange loot picking order?

10+character Level+1/2Wisdom+1/2 Bluff Modifier ((Or any variations thereof, like 1/2Charisma instead of wisdom.))

Also, don't expect anything by showing your enormously high rolls. One skill that I've noticed is notoriously flaunted is Appraise. Appraise is not an "RP skill" anyways, it's more knowledge-based like Lore than anything else, hence it uses Intelligence and not Charisma.

The only time it might be remotely appropriate for use with PCs is if the Appraising character wants to buy something, but OOCly has no idea what a fair cost would be. In this case, it's best to make the PC merchant aware that your character would know, but you are clueless!

Sounds like someone got rickrolled too many times trying to haggle fat merchants IMO.

I'm going to go and agree wholeheartedly with Ebok here. I've had people come up to me on the street with the lamest crap lines trying to hustle money from me and I just tell them to buzz off, roll or no roll. I've also had people try and intimidate me with using their skill and saying something lame as well like "you'd better, or else..." LAME. no way i'm going to pay attention to that.

Alternatively, i've had some PC's be a jerk and I know they are bad asses and well, depending on the PC i'm playing i've either had to step up, or wiggle my way out of things. Either way, it's RP'ing.

Hmmm, okay, thanks

Also the whole "Give me my money or I cut you" line is very . . . lame. The whole point of the intimidation check is that you know how to intimidate people, it's your mind not your blade.

I think the rolls are to show that you have invested Ranks in the skill.

After all, the 6 charisma half orc trying to bully you into submission without any intimidation points shouldn't be successful.

The double-sided coin of that is that a smart person will just give the half-orc what he wants. It really doesn't matter that much to someone with average courage whether he says "I know fifteen hundred different ways to fillet your spleen" or "Ug want shiny. You give shiny." If he's three feet taller than you, has a greataxe, and has you backed up into a corner, you're most likely going to give him what he wants.

However, it's also true that the person the orc just stole from is a lot more likely to try and take revenge upon him if he wasn't terrified. If he just went along with it to keep his life, he will undoubtedly try and get back at the orc. Now, if the victim sees the orc as some kind of vengeful demon vigilante/torturer, it's a lot less likely that he'll be messed with.

Aye?

hmmm, I don't think I agree. No matter the intimidation skill level, let's talk straight facts. Some 23 strength, huge half orc is going to make an impression over an elf with 12 strength and 8 intimidation. I'm not really sure how relevant the intimidation skill is with PC's because at the end of the day, if someone can cut your head off for real, you're gonna be more likely to do what they say, then if they aren't...

I've always thought it is more of how you deal with NPC's and when doing things on a DM quest, etc.

I agree that RP should take precedence.

However, with bluff, sometime the situation is just too close to call:- if you pick up on a bluff about something significant where there will be consequences its easy to be accused of meta-gaming having read a forum or had an overdose of OOC tells. I'd often prefer to take a roll against wisdom and have the opportunity to be completely suckered in.

There is a danger that since players are (often) smarter than their characters (and better informed) the bluffer, liar and charlatan gets too tough a time. If you must RP, suspend your disbelief a bit more - the ensuing story is usually much more entertaining.

hmmm, yeah, with bluff it is harder to call. I'll buy that. I always try and give my PC's a decent Intelligence score so I don't have to play dumb...

Hard though when people are trying to get you to do something that you really don't want to do, I would think it would at least be an apposed check in that case... Have to think about this a bit more perhaps.

Ebok, your new avatar is far too cutesy.

I just want to second what Garem said.

Sense motive checks don't exist in EfU.

Lansert Ealier today when a player tried bluff check on me It came to my attention that . . . There is no sence motive check! This makes me ask, what instead can be used for sence motive? Some one told me Wisdom . . . that seems alittle unballanced in favour of the person pulling the bluff.

Any one got an idea as to what could be use in this skill's place?

To make it short, players are free, in interactions with other players, to use whatever DC they see fit. Here's my Bluffing Scale-O-Matic, which should be used in terms of relative position, ie how close to these two extremes does your particular bluff fit:

Lover telling you that, no, those pants make your thighs look sexy: DC 0.

Mindflayer telling you that those pants would make you look even sexier down in the tunnels, where he will share a bubbly martini and dirty, flirtatious looks with you: DC 50.

Personally, I just feel it out as I go. If I'm undecided about which direction my character might sway, I might ask for a roll just to help me along. In fact, I find it somewhat courteous to take someone's "social stats" into consideration, if it's not forced upon you with rollplay - on the other hand, it's also annoying for someone to pull a Godfather intimidate on you when their character has -1 in the skill...

I do seem to remember looking at a chart for DMs somewhere that suggested DCs of 15, 20, 25, depending on wether a "generic" task was simple, average or difficult. I'd instead substitute "how sympathetic the liar is to your character - symapthetic, indifferent, whatajerk." Then, the chart for bluff states,

The target wants to believe you. -5 The bluff is believable and doesn’t affect the target much. +0 The bluff is a little hard to believe or puts the target at some risk. +5 The bluff is hard to believe or puts the target at significant risk. +10 The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider. +20

So if you really wanted to patch together some guidelines, there you go.

Edit: But yeah, as has been stated numerable times above, you're in no way required to react to another player's roll, just play your character out as you think is most appropriate.