I have been the moderator for the goblin town subforum for a very long time. If you'd like to be added, shoot me a PM or catch me on IRC. If you'd like to take over as moderator and have a main PC goblin who has any influence/leadership and you intend to play seriously, please catch a DM and it's all yours!

PEACE

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Adding a bit: This is something that irks me, and always has (despite the fact that it kept me alive so long)...

Goblins are goblins. They are evil little creatures. "Good" goblins don't really exist. So why do people play such things? Even more importantly, why do normal race PC characters shirk from initiating PvP with these little monsters? It is absolutely absurd that PCs condone their existence INSIDE the city when if they had been in the Underdark, they would have killed them without a second thought just because they were in the way, or heck, would go out of their way to kill them. I'm not saying that you should instantly FD any goblin you see, but you should at least NOT want to protect them and not want them near you. Also, keep in mind, you don't necessarily want to FD them all the time. In fact, it's almost more logical to scare them away so that other goblins will shake in their boots when they hear about Sanctuary and consider going there.

To summarize and supplement:

"[Goblins are basically ALWAYS evil and]...overall, its not evil to kill goblins on sight?" -Oroborous

"This is correct. Killing evil monsters is fine regardless of circumstance." -metropakt in reply

Some characters who have grown up in Sanctuary may not have such "topside" Forgotten Realms views of goblins as they have always had them around.

Others may know that goblins are most often used by more powerful beings to complete tasks or act as foot soldiers, and plan on using them similarly.

Those are two reasons I can think of characters not instantly wanting to kill goblins.

Garem

"[Goblins are basically ALWAYS evil and]...overall, its not evil to kill goblins on sight?" -Oroborous

"This is correct. Killing evil monsters is fine regardless of circumstance." -metropakt in reply

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I'm sure I'm going to sound like an anal self-important troll, but this summary is confusing.

I don't disagree with the likely intended meaning, but it frustrates general understanding of the rules for a DM, someone who should bring clarity with situational application of the rules in advisory opinions, to make such an overinclusive statement.

It's too broad to be correct and it's driving me nutty that statements like the one quoted above are being thrown around willy nilly by DMs, and now by players.

I'm not trying to burn anyone. Maybe similarly overinclusive statements do more good than harm. I don't know. Maybe it's just not important enough for anyone to waste their time refining.

It still strikes me as a falsehood, however unintentional or practical.

S

Garem,

Could you please post a link to the actual thread where you pulled those quotes from? Thanks.

This rule has been made painfully clear since we introduced non-application monster races. If it baffles you, you are welcome to not play them.

The statement by Metropakt is incorrect.

It's incorrect because it's an absolute statement that denies the possibility, at all, ever, of situations where it's wrong to kill a monstrous PC.

So no, the rule has not been made painfully clear if metropakt's quoted statement is the rule in its entirity because there are circumstances within reasonable contemplation where killing a monstrous PC would contradict another server rule(s). It's painfully full of holes and possiblities for contradiction.

"Regardless of circumstance" is over inclusive. The statement is a falsehood.

S

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/32/32806/naturally-evil/index.html

It's understandable to be against or frustrated with this. For one, it makes playing goblins near-unbearably difficult to play. Second, it's not the norm in game. Most people are totally apathetic towards goblins in the city, and there are certainly IC reasons why sometimes this is okay. "Because they used to be slaves too..." doesn't really justify anything, because yea, so were a lot of really OTHER nasty things. You can pity something and still want to kill it, you don't have to be best friends.

Topside or not, goblins are marauding little pests. They act the same towards humans in the Underdark as they do topside. Sure, the dangers of the Underdark has put them closer together, but that doesn't matter. And anyways, my main point is about character consistancy, not what I think all PCs should think and feel towards monster races.

I think the best way I've seen someone handle it is Canzah (mgh, a pure Lower player? Surprise, surprise...) when he was around a few nasty little kobold PCs. He looked at the kobolds with total disgust, treated them with total disrespect, but needed their help to find the goblins he wanted to kill. He rejected all blessings from their god/cleric and making absolutely certain his back was covered at all times, metaphorically speaking. Except for when he got in a fistfight with a dog and got OWNED. Like, dead on the ground Canzah against injured Worg. Sorry Canzah, can't let you live that one down.

This is more like what it should be. Instead of treating goblins like stray dogs, treat them like RABID stray dogs, since that's pretty much what they are. Evil, hateful, nasty little creatures that are smart enough to cause some serious trouble.

GFWD's points on when you might not want to kill them are good. But just because you don't kill it, doesn't mean you should tolerate its presence- that's the point I'm trying to make.

Summary of it all: -Remember, these things are EVIL and NASTY. Unless you've got a specific reason, you should probably regard them like you do with a goblin in the wild if not more severe since they are in your home. -Yea, so refer to point one.

By the way, when I say "goblin", it's pretty well interchangeable with "kobold" or any other monster race. There are exceptions, like Shadow Tribe kobolds. But even with that exception, most people should really dislike them.

socialmisfit The statement by Metropakt is incorrect.

It's incorrect because it's an absolute statement that denies the possibility, at all, ever, of situations where it's wrong to kill a monstrous PC.

So no, the rule has not been made painfully clear if metropakt's quoted statement is the rule in its entirity because there are circumstances within reasonable contemplation where killing a monstrous PC would contradict another server rule(s).

"Regardless of circumstance" is over inclusive. The statement is a falsehood.

S

No it's not! The rules don't apply in the situation of instigating PvP against monster races. Monsters trying to instigate PvP with PCs, as your question in the DM forum asked, should be treated like a normal PvP situation.

To summarize, there is not a single wrong situation where you cannot kill a monster PC just because he is a PC as opposed to being a regular NPC goblin. But that doesn't mean that rules such as... Grabbing a DM in populated areas or at least making an attempt in non-populated areas... Any form of mechanics abuses/metagaming... ... are just dismissed. No, it's pretty much normal PvP except for the fact that it's entirely impossible to grief a monsterous PC. "Because it's a monster" is always a justifiable reason to attack the monster PC. Always.

Yes, it sucks. I played a very prominent goblin PC for several months. I fought for my life once a week or so. It makes a hard game much, much harder. There is no mechanics nor RP benefit for playing a goblin other than the challenge and the fun of being a dirty and wicked scumbag that can talk- even the rules are slated against you. That's just how it is, I'm afraid. You're more than welcome to lobby why you think goblins should be given some leeway, but it's been discussed ad nauseum already by DMs and players and the current system is what came out of it.

I'll try and clear it up.

"Killing evil monsters is fine regardless of circumstance, assuming the scenario in question will not, in any way, conflict with the already established, carefully outlined rules concerning PvP.

The DM team reserves its right to treat any matter of PvP, whether it be between monstrous races or not, on a case by case basis, and interfere accordingly."

Ebok I believe the believe the issue pointed out is this:

Grieving low level goblins because you can, considering efu economy means they -will- have as much or more gold and stuff then a single quest, Shouldn't be accepted. The above quote implies you need -zero- reason at all to engage and kill a goblin, so... Does that make Grieving Low level goblins allowed? Assuming you don't camp their spawn point or break some other rule. (which happens to be the Crone for newly created)

I'm not saying I don't enjoy the rush of fleeing a group of adventurers trying to maul you. But Walking out, Getting shot, Dieing. Isn't fun for anyone. I don't care who you are.

Basically, Yes- adventurers can kill a goblin because of their race, That is a valid reason to create conflict. Its a good reason to kill them. OOCly, we have to have some type of respect for the other player, no matter how things develop ICly. And the Blanket statement above seems to denote that someone playing a Goblin isn't mandating the same level of enjoyment in their conflicts as someone playing another race. Its not- Don't play one if you don't like it. Of course you're going to get killed as a goblin~ Just keep in mind as the attacker that there is another Player there that is putting time into the goblin for some fun. At least TRY to make it fun to die.

EDIT:: Wow allot of other posts went up real quick. <_< I don't mean to sound repetitive. And ti does't matter how many time you kill me, I will ALWAYS have a goblin to run around with. They are one of my favorite things to emote being.

Goblins are evil. It's fine to kill them.

Garem,

I did and do agree with much of what you're saying, and with much of GFWD's and Ebok's refinements. Ilovethesuit just repeated the same logical error in the original quote I'm taking issue with.

I'm not frustrated one bit by a policy that states the rationale for killing a monstrous PC by a non-monstrous PC just because they are a monstrous PC is generally acceptable. I'm 100% fine with it. But what I have just said and what snoteye has quoted is totally different than what you quoted metropakt as saying.

I take issue with the inadequacy of the rule statement in that quote that you introduced. It's confusing because it's logically untrue. It further bothers me that a false statement is allowed without correction (edit: I wrote this before snoteye's post), and even supported after someone reasonably takes issue with it.

My opinion as to what to do about the quoted rule statement, which certainly is arguable, is that overinclusive statements are confusing, and the one you've quoted shouldn't be taken as the rule in total, and they should be refrained from in the future as much as possible for the benefit of all.

S

Well, this is how I read it. It lacks ambiguity.

"This (being, goblins are evil) is correct. Killing evil monsters (goblins, even PC goblins) is fine (requires no further justification) regardless of circumstance."

If you read it otherwise, I can say with strong certainty that this is what he meant.

Ebok:

Grieving low level goblins because you can, considering efu economy means they -will- have as much or more gold and stuff then a single quest, Shouldn't be accepted.

As the rules stand now, you cannot grief a goblin. To grief, you must kill someone without reason, and typically there is a sizable level difference. In this case, the latter is a null point, the only important thing is the reason. Because they are a monster is a good enough reason, there is no further need to argue or question why.

As for making it fun- yes, that's always appreciated! But just like any other PvP situation on EfU, the victor isn't required to do anything. It's just nice of them, and they should because it ought to be more fun for them too.

Goblins are evil. It's fine to kill them.

Now that's not entirely correct. It's not really about evil. I mean, that's certainly part of it. But half the town council is EVIL, and you can't just kill them like you do a goblin PC. It's about being a monster.

Garem,

Now analyze "regardless of circumstance".

I believe Snoteye covered this sufficiently.

OK, I'm not going to read any of this, but, if you can't deal with playing monster PC's and the consequences that come along with them, don't!

I don't want to believe that there's more than 1 person who could possibly be baffled by this, but the thread in DM Q&A was a morality question, thus I believe I can fix the issue for those that have trouble following along with one word:

"This is correct. Killing evil monsters is >morally< fine regardless of circumstance."