In NWN, the spell schools aren't balanced at all, and and the feats supporting some of these schools are all but worthless. We are looking at spicing up a few of the schools, to help at least make more of the feats worthwhile. I'm posting my suggestions below. I'd like to see other suggestions, as well as any discussion on suggestions made.

I will note, this is my suggestions, not a concensus by the DM's, so nothing is set in stone on any of this. I feel more input will be helpful before we actually do impliment some of this.

Abjuration This school has no offensive spells, so these feats are really not usable as is. I had considered only adding one effect of the other for SF and GSF, but I think that both effects together still shouldn't be a balance issue. Spell Focus: +1 Max level on dispels, +1 spell effect on breaches Greater Spell Focus: +1 Max level on dispels, +1 spell effect on breaches Arcane Defense: +50% duration to Abjurations. (This isn't all protection spells, just those of the abjuration school.)

Conjuration Really, conjuration is a fairly strong school in it's own right, and doesn't need a huge boost. Default Bioware summons are too strong, so we will be modifying them to have shorter durations. (I think 5 rounds/level is what we are considering.) After making those changes, we are looking at making summoner's a viable option.) Spell Focus: +1 max summon Greater Spell Focus: +2 max summon Arcane Defense: No Change

Divination This is a tough one. Feeblemind is the only spell I can come up with that is affected by SF, GSF, and SA. Not only does that mean there is only one spell, it also means it's not a particularly useful spell for it's level. This one can use some spicing up. However, I'd like to keep to the theme of SF and GSF being more offensive in nature with SA being defensive. Spell Focus: +3 Lore Greater Spell Focus: Detect Evil as paladin? Arcane Defense: +50% duration to divinations

Enchantment Definately not in need of any help. I would argue this might be the strongest school in the game. Sleep, Hold Person, Consfusion, and Hold Monster make sure that enchanters have strong DC spells throughout their careers. Spell Focus: No change Greater Spell Focus: No change Arcane Defense: No change

Evocation Definately doesn't need a boost as it has more spells helped by the +DC than I can count. Spell Focus: No change Greater Spell Focus: No Change Arcane Defense: No change

Illusion This has color spray, phantasmal killer, shadow conjuration, and greater shadow conjuration. No need for a boost on this one. People will take it just for Phk. Spell Focus: No Change Greater Spell Focus: No Change Arcane Defense: No Change

Necromancy Although this school already has some very strong spells like fear, slay living, contagion, and others, I still like the idea of allowing it to spice up undead animation as a way to reward necromancers for concentrating on their art. Spell Focus: +1 max animated dead Greater Spel Focus: +1 max animated dead Arcane Defense: No Change

Transmutaion This spell has a few key spells worth taking focus or defense for, so I think it should be left alone. Spell Focus: No Change Greater Spell Focus: No Change Arcane Defense: No Change

They seem like good suggestions.

But I'm not keen on that Paladin Detect evil for Divination. Detect alignment as a whole or nothing at all would make more sense.

Detect evil is the one I'm least happy with as well. The reason I put it in there is that we don't have to build and balance another tool. That is the one item where the most ideas are needed though.

Make divination forcuses give bonuses to its spells, giving them a higher duration, on things like see invisiblity? true seeing, that spell that grants + to spot, things like that.

Olouth Make divination forcuses give bonuses to its spells, giving them a higher duration, on things like see invisiblity? true seeing, that spell that grants + to spot, things like that.

I'm for that. Mastery of divination gives them a magical ability to see things hidden from view, so maybe a bonus to listen/spot/search.

The spot bonus business is most logical.

I would prefer to see no changes made to these feats.

Without changes, most of them will remain useless.

Divination This is a tough one. Feeblemind is the only spell I can come up with that is affected by SF, GSF, and SA. Not only does that mean there is only one spell, it also means it's not a particularly useful spell for it's level. This one can use some spicing up. However, I'd like to keep to the theme of SF and GSF being more offensive in nature with SA being defensive. Spell Focus: +3 Lore Greater Spell Focus: Detect Evil as paladin? Arcane Defense: +50% duration to divinations

I'd suggest something better, Divination is powerful and lore / detect evil isn't much help.

SF : +3 lore, +2 spot/listen/ GSF: +2 spot/listen +1 dodge AC or something

I'm against changes like skill bonuses, and duration extensions for these feats. There's other feats for these effects.

That aside, I like the abjuration/conjuration/necromancy ideas, the latter two work very nicely to provide flavor in City of Arabel.

Perhaps Abjuration defense can make one harder to dispel instead? I know an arena server had implemented this without a hak, no idea how exactly though.

Definitly make it Detect Alignment and not Detect Evil: providing you come up with a 3rd level or 2nd level spell to block the effect. PnP has both the detection ability and a way to fool it into giving wrong results with the 3rd (or 2nd) level spell Misdirection.

Detect alignment would be more accurate yes. However to rescript nw_xp2 for detect alignment is to add a definate in the code which I seem unable to place recognized in the main on trial testing. Wants a "specific" command. But detect alignment would be the most accurate. Then again, did they even ask for suggestions on rewrites? :D Could always subset GetAlignment for PC alignment but then again, I spent long enough testing that. Id prefer to be a player. Maybe someone else could figure the reinforments on main_?

How about a toggle from the emote menu that changes a cantrip to something like detect magic. This would work as a spell cast on someone and call back defenses for example. Like when dispel dispells buffs, it lists them. Like that, except you only get the list. The better diviner you are, the more accurate/number of buffs are called to you.

We'll say in the example, daze is changed. When daze is cast with toggle off, it works as daze, when the toggle is on, the script calls a different line and it works as a detect magic instead.

you might use protection from alignment to block detect alignment for example:

detect evil used by a good person would be blocked by protection from good, while detect good used by an evil person would be blocked by protection from evil.

(Edited for a more complete feedback)

Abjuration: Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus should make it easier to dispel magic or strip effects through breaches, if it's not the case already. Arcane Defense should probably make your own spells harder to be dispelled, if that is possible. I don't think it makes sense to just raise duration, as Arcane Defense is really about saving throws, in that case, I think making it harder for you to be dispelled would fit better.

Conjuration: Spell Focus giving max summon looks nice. But I see no benefit for taking Arcane Defense. Maybe it should improve Dismissal or dispelling summons, but even then, it doesn't sound worth of it.

Divination: Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus: If detect alignment/scryign is implemented, those should give a bonuses to whichever DC is necessary for a success. Arcane Defense should give you a bonuses to roll any saving you need for those as well.

Illusion : I agree that there are enough Spell Focus for it and such. But it would be nice if Illusion could be more flexible as it is in pnp. I mean creating real illusions instead of just having offensive spells that fit the category, or more variety to the spell selection in Shadow Conjuration-type of spells. Of course, I'm just day-dreaming, but it would be fun if Illusionists could have a larger variety of vfx-only cantrips.

Thrawn Divination This is a tough one. Feeblemind is the only spell I can come up with that is affected by SF, GSF, and SA. Not only does that mean there is only one spell, it also means it's not a particularly useful spell for it's level. This one can use some spicing up. However, I'd like to keep to the theme of SF and GSF being more offensive in nature with SA being defensive. Spell Focus: +3 Lore Greater Spell Focus: Detect Evil as paladin? Arcane Defense: +50% duration to divinations

I'd go with something like this, personally:

Spell Focus: +2 Spot Greater Spell Focus: +3 Spot Arcance Defense: +50% duration to divinations

I edited my original reply. However I think some numbers should be proposed. Abjuration - Improves dispel, breach and mantle. Focus: +2 to the dispel check, +1 to number of spells removed with breachs, +2 number of spell levels to be soaked with mantle. Greater Focus: +4 to dispel check, +2 to number of spells removed with breachs, +4 number of spell levels to be soaked with mantle. Epic Focus: +6 to dispel check, +3 to number of spells removed with breachs, +6 number of spell levels to be soaked with mantle. Arcane Defense: Make your spells harder to be dispelled by 2.

Divination: It would depend on how detect alignment/scrying is implemented if they will. I suggest using the underused spell Clairaudience and Clairvoyance.

Conjuration: Apparently, there are offensive spells in that school, like stinking cloud already.

(I agree with Sinister, that skill bonuses and increased duration wouldn't be the best option.)

Just for reference:

Clairaudience/Clairvoyance Divination [Scrying] Level: Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: Magical sensor Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Clairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. You don't need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known?a place familiar to you or an obvious one. Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn't move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10- foot radius around the center of the spell's effect. Clairaudience/clairvoyance functions only on the plane of existence you are currently occupying. Arcane Focus: A small horn (for hearing) or a glass eye (for seeing).

Perhaps Abjuration defense can make one harder to dispel instead? I know an arena server had implemented this without a hak, no idea how exactly though.

DC = 11 + spell caster's level

You could check if spell caster has Arcane Defense feat, and if so, add +2 to DC.

:wink:

Something I thought about, lightly at best, what if illusionists who summoned something, lets say a wolf, didn't summon one, but summoned 1 + 1 for spell focus + 1 for Greater.

The thing is, the three that appear in this case, only one is real, the others are "illusions" which attack for no damage and have 1 HP. Think mirror image but not on the PC, since thats obvious which is real and which isnt.

No idea if it's feasible, but it'd be interesting.

If mixed with conjuration, you could have say:

1 Wolf (summon) + 1 (SF conjuration) + 1 (GSF conj) + 1 (sf Ill - fake) + 1 (gs ill - fake), though this may lead to summon armies if everyone does it...

Okay another variant of the idea,

use a toggle for the spell in the craft menu or something that sets the summon from one script to another, so summon 3 could be (toggle off) a summoned monster, normal. Or with the toggle (on), a quite powerful looking monster, that's totally fake.

Somethnig as the pnp illusion spells, that since im lacking my PHB, can't think of the names right now.

No idea, but I thought I'd post it anyway.

I think that's a good suggestion. I'm not sure about balancing, but concentrating on the suggestion itself, I'd say instead of making illusionary wolves to actually attack, it should make illusionary wolves with a very low DC fear aura to give the impression that a huge number of wolves is more daunting than one.

As it is now, a generalist wizard can get greater spell focus in divination, conjuration and necromancy if he so desires, reaping the extra benefits of all three schools. I'm all for keeping the spell focus benefits myself, but the greater spell focus feat should only be allowed to be taken by wizards who have chosen to be specialists in that school, hence giving up all access to the opposite school.

Abjurers, for example, have given up all access to the school of conjuration. That's a big sacrifice, which should entitle them to a potent bonus to their Abjuration magic - one that generalists shouldn't be able to get.

The DMs would have to enforce this by taking a look at magic user characters every now and then, making sure only specialists of a school have taken greater focus in it.

The catch about this would be clerics though, as clerics can take spell focus but not specialize. I'm no scripting guru myself, but there would perhaps be a way to make such bonuses only apply to wizards and sorcerers?

There is no way to know which school someone picked through scripting, AFAIK.

Hence why they use Focus feat to check.

Jhagar Stradholme

The DMs would have to enforce this by taking a look at magic user characters every now and then, making sure only specialists of a school have taken greater focus in it.

The catch about this would be clerics though, as clerics can take spell focus but not specialize. I'm no scripting guru myself, but there would perhaps be a way to make such bonuses only apply to wizards and sorcerers?

It's pretty much unenforcable without a DM manually looking through everyones feat-lists, and i would be too apathetic and hopefully too busy doing more productive things to care.

I'm putting in spell focus and greater spell focus for abjuration currently.

Spell Focus: Abjuration +1 maximum level to dispel spells (allowing caster level 6 for lesser dispel, 11 for dispel, and 16 for greater dispell). +1 spells dispelled for spell breaches (making it 3 for lesser spell breach and 5 for greater spell breach) +1 spell resistance hit for targets of spell breaches (making it 4 for lesser spell breach and 6 for greater spell breach)

Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration +2 maximum level to dispel spells (allowing caster level 6 for lesser dispel, 11 for dispel, and 16 for greater dispell). +2 spells dispelled for spell breaches (making it 4 for lesser spell breach and 6 for greater spell breach) +2 spell resistance hit for targets of spell breaches (making it 6 for lesser spell breach and 7 for greater spell breach)

Arcane Defense: Abjuration When targeted by lesser or greater spell breach, you have one less spell dispelled, and spell resistance lowered by one less. I'm still working on making you count as one level higher for the effects of dispell magic.

In addition to these changes, the spell breach spell was changed was adjusted to no longer dispel the spell resistance spell.

Sounds good. My Abjurer is going to have some fun...

Some ideas for divination from the spellguard applicants' brainstorm (some of the ideas previously mentioned in this thread are included):

Skill bonuses: exploitable, especially if they are tied to Spell focus which is but 1 feat required to take them. If they are tied to either Greater spell focus or Arcane defense, though, it might be a more viable solution. However, I would personally like to see the spell foci tied to the spell efficiency while the arcane defense should be linked to their duration and eventually bonus skill points.

Even though there are objections to making the feats extend the duration, there is one thing to consider: even with the Extend spell feat, a mid-level diviner would be having difficulties to maintain his efficiency as a diviner and still be able to be moderately useful with other spells. I would imagine that a diviner with greater spell focus should be quite able to walk around seeing all things invisible and hidden, in-between the rests, without wasting all his spell slots on divinations. Sure, maybe not in PnP, but we cannot emulate the plethora of other perks the diviners get in PnP so we have to build on what the NWN engine offers (that is, if there are not plans to introduce something new and extra).

If possible, clairaudience/clairvoyance could be scripted to catch the whispers in the area, maybe by computing the distance required to catch the whisper differently while the spell is cast?

The detect alignment is rather moot, since all the taints and purities of soul are rather metaphysical and divine in nature - I am not sure if that could be discovered through standard arcane magic, although I know the PnP rules might say otherwise.

I propose the following, maybe something of it could be added, if not all:

Spell focus: Divination Extending the duration of all extensible divinations by 50%, including Power Word: Stun (as-in the Extend spell feat) Increasing the numerical effect of Identify, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Feeblemind Clairaudience/Clairvoyance allows to hear whispers Feeblemind stuns the target for 1d4 rounds

Greater spell focus: Divination Extending the duration of all extensible divinations by 100% (i. e. another 50% to the SF), including Power Word: Stun (as-in the Extend spell feat) Feeblemind would affect the target's WIS in the same manner as it does the INT, the SF's increase in effect included (e. g. target's WIS and INT are drained by 1d10 points) Find traps would also disarm the traps as it standardly does, not just find them Feeblemind stuns the target for 1d4+1 rounds

Arcane defense: Divination Extending the duration of all extensible divinations by 50%, including Power Word: Stun (as-in the Extend spell feat) Bonus feat: Alertness ? Bonus feat: Skill focus: Search

Meaning, a full-specialized diviner with the Extend spell feat would get a 200% increase in the spell duration, which would make the See invisibility and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance very useful and motivate the diviners to get all the three required feats (is it possible to code a synergy bonus if one does have all 3?). Also, the potentially exploitable perks (improved Find Traps and Alertness as a bonus feat) would be made more difficult to gain since they require 2 feats to be taken before.

Opinions, please. :wink:

A diviner with the ability to detect alignments, hear whispers, disarm traps while also getting the two mundane detection feats would be over the top - everyone would loathe diviners and all rogues/spies would want to multiclass as them. I'm all for a considerable increase of spell durations though, to enhance the diviners arcane means of detection perhaps even up to 300% (although that might be unbalancing when you get access to power word: stun), as well as the numerical effects you suggested.

A high level diviner of Savras the All-Seeing might perhaps, once in a while, be given a vision by the DMs regarding future threats to the city and such?

I have to insist that we're not going to be giving skill bonuses and probably not extension durations for spell focus feats.

Instead of emulating existing feats, I have some other ideas that we can hopefully have in.

i took SF conjuration thinking the additional summons were already implemented. are they going to be soon? if not, id like to consult with a dm to go back and re pick my lvl 6 feat.

I am curious as to the status of these feats. Are some of them implimented yet? Or is this whole idea on hold?

SF Abjuration: -Gives 1 max level to dispel magic spells. -Gives 1 extra effect removal to breach spells.

GSF Abjuration: -Gives 1 max level (for total of +2) to dispel magic spells. -Gives 1 extra effect removal (for total of +2) to breach spells.

SF/GSF Divination are tied to scrying I believe.

SF/GSF Conjuration, Encahantment, Evocation, Transmutation, Necromancy, and Illusion currently have no additional effects if I recall correctly.

We still want to add to Conjuration (additional summons) and Necromancy (enhanced animate dead).

SF Divination increases scrying duration by 150%. GSF Divination increases scrying duration by 200%.

Sounds good. I would love to see those extra conjure summons. Give us a news flash when they are done. :D

Arkov See Invisibility isn't a scrying spell.

Just out of curiosity, which divination spells are considered scrying spells? I figured See Invisibility, Find Traps, True Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Premonition could all be classified as such.

The WotC website didn't offer any specific listing. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_scryingsubschool&alpha=S

Schattenjäger

Just out of curiosity, which divination spells are considered scrying spells? I figured See Invisibility, Find Traps, True Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Premonition could all be classified as such.

When cast normally, none of the above. Scrying involves divination to see things elsewhere. You'd be at one place, but would be spying on somewhere completely different.

Is there any chance at seeing See Invis/C&C etc. increased durations if one has taken the appropriate Spell Foci to make the feat selection more powerful, and perhaps more balanced in terms of the other Spell Foci?

Edit: Possibly add an extra point of INT reduction when casting Feeblemind for each spell focus taken in Divination?

Not likely to increase spell durations, at least any time soon.

Feeblemind is already very powerful, and doesn't really need the boosted int penalties. If you are using that spell, it's already getting the full benefit of spell focus. It's spells that don't get the bonus that I'd look at.

On the topic of scrying, is there any chance that this could be left as a 'find out in game' sort of ideal? Now just knowing that scrying is implemented seems like a pretty big spoiler, it'd be nice is it was left a mystery.

-And as a side note, I believe the see invis spell is still broken.

Conjuration doesn't seem that lame to me. I think that allowing Focus feats to boost the quantity of creatures summoned could potentially become a serious balance issue. Perhaps instead of trying to 'fix' the summoner concept through the focus feats, a way could be found to allow the summoner to cast additional summoning spells without unsummoning the previous creature? Additionally, this whole 'conjuration foci' deal, involing components to enhance/alter your summons, could add alot of spice to the summoning path as well. I haven't explored it much, but the idea is darn cool ^^ The multiple summoneds idea might even be worked into the conjuration foci system, even.

Or perhaps the focus feats could confer enhancements to summoned creatures? Ability adjustments maybe? Hm.

ExileStrife On the topic of scrying, is there any chance that this could be left as a 'find out in game' sort of ideal? Now just knowing that scrying is implemented seems like a pretty big spoiler, it'd be nice is it was left a mystery.

-And as a side note, I believe the see invis spell is still broken.

I hate fining out game rules/mechanics in game. I need to plan.

On summons, even if I can get it working, I'm hesitant to activate multiple summons at the moment. With the current power of summons, and with the proposed change, I see it as a definite balance issue. Something will be figured out to make summoners more viable however.

On scrying, it isn't something that people can just do. It requires having the proper equipment. If you have access to the equipment, then you can worry about mechanics.

ADDED by Arkov: And you will know if you have access to the equipment. It will be obvious.

So what exactly is the current situation with the GSF feats? At the least, what's up with Conjuration?

To the best of my knowledge SF/GSF: Conjuration has not yet been changed.

And Spell Focus: Divinition does not add to extra duration of See Invisibility.

I have Spell Focus: Divinition, but none in Illusion, yet my Invisibility, Ghostly Visage & See Invisibility remain to have the same duration. Just a head's-up.

Coldburn And Spell Focus: Divinition does not add to extra duration of See Invisibility.

I have Spell Focus: Divinition, but none in Illusion, yet my Invisibility, Ghostly Visage & See Invisibility remain to have the same duration. Just a head's-up.

Arkov Yes, we never planned on changing those, as far as I'm aware.

Damn it. :x