In lieu of this: https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/32/32293/join-the-red-team-kill-the-blue-team/index.html?amp;start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Personally, I love PvP. Probably because I'm finally getting the hang of it. But, like everyone else (if not more so) I very much dislike FDing people without a specific purpose.

So let's think of some other alternatives, and I would REALLY be interested in DM feedback about the ideas.

What about maiming the person? Removing a limb?

Please, discuss and add to my very short list.

Extracting an oath.

Converting them to your side.

Holding something valuable hostage.

Holding them Down and saying CONVERT OR DIE! (if your a cleric.)

If your not a cleric bring them to a cleric of your faith to say CONVERT OR DIE!

Or make them pay you a fee or you will kill them.

(some of this stuff has been done to me without me being beat once.)

Torturing them to find out valuable information is a very good one, too. This allows you to set up elaborate vengeance plots that are far more interesting than just killing.

A few of my past choices:

Make them your eternal slave, signing away their soul in blood, Remove a hand, Remove a finger! Repeat as necessary, with as many characters as possible, Make them swear on their mama that they won't come after you, Send them packin' naked into town, then make their lives a living hell by making a hilariously cruel treasure-hunt for their lost loot, Extract valuable information, which you can use to blackmail them, Terrorize them for half an hour, so they'll understand perfectly who they're messing with, Kidnap them and extract ransom from their friends/allies, Take them to the Illithid for enthrallment, Shoot a crossbow next to their feet repeatedly, screaming, "DANCE, GOBLIN, DANCE!" Drag their ass through the streets of your favorite part of Sanctuary, screaming obscenities Kill them, but return their corpse and belongings to their allies, ensuring they will be raised. This last one is very extreme, and I generally take it to mean "Back off. Back the fuck off." It's the last step before FD.

I thought about making a thread like this one myself, but I'll tell you why I didn't - people shouldn't have to look for a thread like this to come up these ideas. These should come as a natural progression of IC actions and their consequences. Of course, many players simply resort to FD'ing their enemies as soon as they can. But, what players should understand in my opinion, is that even in the FR, where death isn't necessarily permanent, killing someone is an extremely radical act, expressing the complete impossibility of any reconciliation/cooperation/coercion.

So, instead of suggesting actual 'ideas', here is my suggestion:

When you subdue an enemy of your character, have your character ask themselves this question: Why is this person my enemy? Why are they dangerous to my plans/goals/ideals?

When you come up the answer, you'll know what to do. If your enemy is dangerous because of their skill at arms, take away their sword, or maybe even their sword-hand, forcing them to live a life of shame and uselessness. If your enemy is a known political figure, who's tried to thwart your plans at every opportunity, extract secrets from them, then use them for blackmail and coercion. If your enemy is a bard who has been paid by an unknown party to slander your name, remove their tongue. If your enemy is the leader of a rival gang, burn their face so that they'll be so disfigured and horrible, no one will ever follow their orders again. If your enemy is a rival merchant, hold them hostage until his allies/retainers give you access to his bank account. The possibilities are as endless as the situations that may lead you to these encounters.

And in some cases, the character won't submit to any of these. If you try to blackmail them, they'll respond by being tough. If you try to torture them, they'll refuse to talk. If you kidnap them, they'll try to escape. If you cut their hand off, they'll hire a ganksquad to come gunning for you.

Is that a negative thing? Absolutely not. Meaningful roleplay, meaningful conflict and a meaningful rivalry have arisen from your decision to let them live.

Also, as a final rule of thumb: Always make sure the other player understands what's at stake. If someone comes to spy on your big bad evil meeting, insta-FD'ing them isn't cool. Kicking or chasing them out, explaining that the next time they go in, it's their death, THEN killing them when they return, is.

I hope this is good insight to players wondering what are the alternatives to FD killing someone else.

- K.

There should be a list of useful and stat-affecting tools to take advantage of when deciding to spare the life of some unappreciative fool:

Hot iron to one eye: permanent -5 to spot and search checks. Lob off finger(s): permanent effect to dex (-1 or -2) and -5 to disarm traps. (crucial punishment for the rogues)

Taking off limbs would be great, but if it cannot be shown IG mechanically then I rather not even do it. Yet:

Break leg: -10 to dex, -8 to reflex throws, and reduced speed for six months IG time. Break arm: -5 to dex, penalty to spell-casting for six months IG time.

Of course, I'm just throwing out figures here, additional stuff can be added or removed. Go figure.

Of course, DM approved and assisted.

Strip them of all they own and donate it to charity

Make them march out into the Underdark without any supplies and abandon them there.

Perform an exorcism of sorts

Hurt them, heal them, hurt them more, rinse repeat

Humiliate them by making them crawl on all fours and make animal noises

Make them eat goblin dung

Defile them (this would require DM supervision to stay within server rules of conduct)

Convert or die is done to death.

Try threatening to harm loved ones, or promise to disgrace them.

Living in shame is often far worse than death.

Beat them down, chuckle, and walk away.

Umm.... Seduce them?

Agree beforehand that you wish to duel them "to the pain."

Castration is good. So is getting their signature on a piece of slander against one of their friends.

Please don't actually RP anything that graphic. It doesn't really disgust me, but there is a line that can be drawn, as it does weird other people out.

Another fun suggestion, if the other person is of approximately the same physique as you and wears distinctive armor or clothing, is to steal their stuff, leave them tied up in a back alley, and then go commit a bunch of high-profile crimes. Get away with it, and you have set them up for all sorts of trouble without actually having to kill them. Of course, the trial could go poorly for them if they get caught.

Blackmail them with incriminating photographs/paintings/holograms/magical illusions, as the setting permits?

Hold them hostage "OOC log off/ IG locked somewhere" and get a message to his friends asking for ransom.

OOC log is hardly any fun for the hostage...

Staring Death OOC log is hardly any fun for the hostage...

Agreed. Try and find someone to help you keep them held hostage or maybe find a jail cell somewhere?

A beastly necromancer could kill them and raise them again into their cruel regime, claiming to now hold a part of their soul!

Remove some of their teeth and make nice jewellery, or keep them in a box, one for each of your tormented victims! Being confronted again by the same person wearing your ears or fingers as a necklace should put the willies up you

I do enjoy the 'I will destroy everything you love and hold dear' approach..but this also relies heavily upon the other party to not just turn round and say 'I DON'T LOVE ANYTHING, THEREFORE I WIN'.

When your victim seems very un-willing to 'play along' as it were (be it IC or OOC) FDing can sometimes seem the only thing that will get through to them.

I guess people care more about their XP and loot than losing an eye or a finger which won't have a detrimental mechanical effect on them? Who knows!

Edit: This post isn't based on anything I've seen or been involved in on EfU, just what I've picked up from playing and DMing PWs elsewhere!

I think the other important point to make is that, once any of these non-FD options is carried out, it is important for the affected character to have it affect their character.

Think about how these actions would change your character and play up these changes. Maybe you cannot lead a posse down to Lower because you now have a fear of going to Lower. Maybe you were a bad-ass, but now you are scared to enter combat and have to slowly build up your courage over time. You could be so traumatized that you experience memory loss for a time, then one day suddenly remember who did the horrible things to you.

I think too many people bounce back from non-FD encounters, and rezzed FD encounters too quickly, losing a great opportunity to role play some changes in their character.

Okay, there's some really good stuff put up. Kiaring and I started talking about it and after a bit of heated discussion have come to the conclusion that our opinion is awesome, so I'm going to put it up and more, ad nauseum.

Under normal PvP situations, defined as conflict against another PC including violent and non-violent methods, characters ought to refrain from permenantly killing (Full Damage mode) another character until a sufficient relationship has been established between the two characters; not just the characters' factions but the characters themselves. Building a relationship does not necessarily mean that the characters must directly interact, although this method is typically preferable.

There are obvious exceptions: drow, goblins, or any other race that your character might attack on sight due for their own reasons.

Additionally, we both agreed that all of the suggested methods are fantastic ideas, but it should be stressed that you should make your method of non-Full Damage PVP interactions end in a way that is particularly suited to drive the story. If someone is horribly slandering your name or your faction's name verbally and through posters, it would not make sense to cut off their left arm if they write with their right arm and still have a tongue to dictate. Kia's post had other such ideas. Make the "punishment" of losing interesting!

Garem Under normal PvP situations, defined as conflict against another PC including violent and non-violent methods, characters ought to refrain from permenantly killing (Full Damage mode) another character until a sufficient relationship has been established between the two characters; not just the characters' factions but the characters themselves. Building a relationship does not necessarily mean that the characters must directly interact, although this method is typically preferable.

That's pretty brilliant and is exactly how I feel about PvP.

Cake_Or_Death A beastly necromancer could kill them and raise them again into their cruel regime, claiming to now hold a part of their soul!

Remove some of their teeth and make nice jewellery, or keep them in a box, one for each of your tormented victims! Being confronted again by the same person wearing your ears or fingers as a necklace should put the willies up you

I do enjoy the 'I will destroy everything you love and hold dear' approach..but this also relies heavily upon the other party to not just turn round and say 'I DON'T LOVE ANYTHING, THEREFORE I WIN'.

When your victim seems very un-willing to 'play along' as it were (be it IC or OOC) FDing can sometimes seem the only thing that will get through to them.

I guess people care more about their XP and loot than losing an eye or a finger which won't have a detrimental mechanical effect on them? Who knows!

Edit: This post isn't based on anything I've seen or been involved in on EfU, just what I've picked up from playing and DMing PWs elsewhere!

But unfortunately the very same thing happens on EfU at 95% of the time. Especially the "I don't love anything, I don't care about anything, you can cut my fingers off or torture me I will never break" type of crap. Respect to those few players who handle their characters like a normal being who can be threatened or intimidated. This thread is for them. The others actually don't deserve such sophistication just a quick trip to the Fugue.

Without reciprocity the whole thing is moot.

Mystic_warden But unfortunately the very same thing happens on EfU at 95% of the time. Especially the "I don't love anything, I don't care about anything, you can cut my fingers off or torture me I will never break" type of crap. Respect to those few players who handle their characters like a normal being who can be threatened or intimidated. This thread is for them. The others actually don't deserve such sophistication just a quick trip to the Fugue.

Without reciprocity the whole thing is moot.

First: It doesn't happen on EfU 95% of the time. If given the chance to cooperate or die, I'd say a good deal of the characters will choose cooperation.

Furthermore, you assume that the "I'll never break mentality" is necessarily a bad thing. It's not! These people exist in real life, too. Sure, they're few and far between, but you have to understand that the Underdark is a harsh setting. Most people in Sanctuary/environs don't have a family. They don't have many friends (and those that do understand that, due to the nature of the Underdark, they could lose those friends at any moment) and they're used to pain, suffering and coercion. No one is against characters who refuse to cooperate under strenuous circumstances - but, remember, that leaves the player who's trying to coerce you in a tight situation - as they're practically forced to kill you. A Paladin would not succumb to an evil Cleric's torture, if they held true to their faith. A druid will never be swayed by the evil Spellguard's attempts to change his nature. Some characters will refuse to cooperate because that is who they are. These reactions are also part of the story-telling that is EfU. You shouldn't begrudge the people who make these choices - rather, you should make sure that everyone has the chance to choose between living on your enemy's terms, and dying on your own terms.

Kiaring

Furthermore, you assume that the "I'll never break mentality" is necessarily a bad thing. It's not!

Everyone breaks under torture sooner or later. It is just the question of time and the expertise of the torturer. The thing is to find what breaks that person. As you wrote: "A druid will never be swayed by the evil Spellguard's attempts to change his nature." True, but that druid can be put into obedience by threatening to destroy the area he tried so hard to protect. If a half-orc barbarian laughs and sings his tribe's war songs as someone skins him alive -okay. But the very same half-orc might beg for stop if someone threatens to crush his holy totem animal statue. And so on, those are just rough examples.

In the end it leads to character conceptualisation, including emotional ties, quirks and such into the character. Without those the character might be unbreakable and all-enduring like a Terminator but has the emotional value and humanity of the said machine as well.

I think with this topic we caught a symptome and not the reason. The real reason is the missing parts in the character concepts. An inadequately thought out character, which does not include those things makes it hard for the other players and characters to make up any other confrontation than full destruction.

I still disagree with you. To me, the FR is a setting where it's not wholly uncommon for people to prefer death if the alternative is surrendering something an enemy of theirs will profit from. I'll agree that every character should have something that they hold dear - a weakness of some sort. But you can't expect every PVP encounter to lead to a confrontation regarding these weaknesses. Sometimes the torturer isn't aware of what they should be saying/doing in order to break their foe. A Paladin who wouldn't divulge information under extreme duress may break if a child is threatened before her eyes. But if no such thing is done, we can't fault the Paladin for sticking it to the end and preferring death to betrayal of her duties. The burden of 'breaking' rests with the torturer, not the torturee. For some characters, the mere mention of death will be enough. For others, not so much.

It also cannot be compared to real life. For most people, they do not know what awaits them after death. In FR, if you are good, you know pretty much exactly what awaits you- a paradise of your God (in most cases.) I do not believe death should be feared as much when the alternative (in some cases) is going to a better place, for certain.

And with Dragons and Goblins and whatnot, I don't doubt the death-rate is somewhat higher.

But, I don't really see this as too big a problem. While I have been killed for subduing people, I've also seen and had a lot of incredibly imaginitive things done to me and others which made the server seem really fun. It depends on the character entirely, but most aren't trigger-happy I find.

Actually Dragons dont have a high Death Rate. Humans have a greater death rate then them.

Make snuggles.

I'd like to bumb this thread, and ask everyone reads it.

I've just had a character that I was very fond of killed for a reason that was nothing short of rediculous.

I know I'm all "grrr" about it at the moment, but it would have been so much more entertaining to roleplay the conflict between these certain characters instead of just going straight out and killing.

This is a storytelling server, guys. How many stories do you know where the main chracters die in the first chapter? It'd make a pretty crappy story.

Actually itd make an awsome story. First chapter its the main char he dies. Then the main chars friend is hunting for his killer and he becomes the main character. Thatd make a pretty awsome STORY!

Dr Dragon Actually itd make an awsome story. First chapter its the main char he dies. Then the main chars friend is hunting for his killer and he becomes the main character. Thatd make a pretty awsome STORY!

Something that I think needs to be brought up more in EFU, is Morality.

(What!? Evil SG bastard bringing up morality!?)

Too many people glorify vigilantism. I know on a personal level i've been attempting to crack down on such rampant vigilantism, but I think if the vibe catches on, it will assist in drawing back the PvP aspect of the server.

People love killing each other.

"OH SHIT! THAT GUY KILLED TED! LETS KILL HIM!".

Sure. We've all been there. The angry mob is awesome RP.

But where's the morals?

"If you kill a killer, you become a killer".

The joy of being a law enforcer is the hypocrasy. I've hired vigilantes, but have yet to kill a PC. My character still holds himself in a better light than that which he fights.

Even good guys I've seen, get uppity with the Vigilantism, wanting to find someone and just run them through. Sure. We're all hard-as-nails-badasses in Underdark, but who says Killing is badass?

Frankly, regardless of how you do it, killing someone is evil.

Luke Skywalker never killed Vader. He remained CG for wins.

Anakin? He killed out of revenge, and fell to teh dark sied.

Sure, CG people would be more of the "Beat the tar out of the criminal until he gives up his evil ways". But "WOLOLOLOL WTF KILL THAT MAN!" is evil. Regardless of the cause.

There is no justification for murder, in the FR world of black-and-white.

Killing an evil creature, sure. Go for it.

Killing a human? Your hands get stained, Macbeth style. Even in "Self Defense". You could subdue them, drag them to jail, etc.

If the DMs put harsher, yet 100% realistic penalties on murder, I believe the PvP train will slow back a bit.

That CG Priest of Tymora will be alot less quick to splatter the Beshaban's brains on the wall, and more likely work to have them vilified, and ran out of town.

I'm not saying PvP is bad. Hell no. Even those of us who suck at it, love PvP.

I just think the notion of "KILL THAT GUY! HE KILLED TED!" From a large number of good guys? Well. They shouldn't be so good anymore.

"...no justification for murder..."

That depends entirely on the circumstances and the definition of murder. Let's assume you mean the term loosely. If you're a paladin of Tr0m and you see a priest of Bale about to sacrifice a child, you don't BEAT HIM down. You kill him. He is a Balite, you are Tr0M! The Balite is objectively evil. There is no question about it. You are also a paladin, your duty is that of a warrior, to protect and defend. You're not interested in converting the Balite, showing him his evil ways. Even if you WERE a cleric, this is an ENEMY priest who spreads darkness, hate, evil, and other nasty things across the shiny and happy lands of the Underdark. You would be justified in killing him too, and it would be an act of GOOD or NEUTRALITY, but certainly not an evil act. You're killing something evil.

Now let's assume you mean randomly killing someone, based only on a small matter and without having established a relationship with your characters (such as very serious arguing, threats; law enforcer-criminal relationship; etc.). Murder is a very, very evil situation. You can be good, they can be evil. If your character does not kill him without specific and justified cause (justification varies greatly, hence the Lawful and Chaotic side of the scale!) like the previous story, then you are committing murder in the more defined sense of the term. And that is evil.

That all aside, you should NOW apply the RP factor. Don't kill people in the first encounter. That's silly. Take your time. Enjoy the verbal conflict, or beating each other up. Talk with your "opponent" OOCly if you think it would help, at worst you'll get to know them a bit and both of you will be able to keep it all in good sportsmanship.

Garem "...no justification for murder..."

That depends entirely on the circumstances and the definition of murder. Let's assume you mean the term loosely. If you're a paladin of Tr0m and you see a priest of Bale about to sacrifice a child, you don't BEAT HIM down. You kill him. He is a Balite, you are Tr0M! The Balite is objectively evil. There is no question about it. You are also a paladin, your duty is that of a warrior, to protect and defend. You're not interested in converting the Balite, showing him his evil ways. Even if you WERE a cleric, this is an ENEMY priest who spreads darkness, hate, evil, and other nasty things across the shiny and happy lands of the Underdark. You would be justified in killing him too, and it would be an act of GOOD or NEUTRALITY, but certainly not an evil act. You're killing something evil.

Smiting is very different from murder, Yes. Paladins live to destroy the most evil of evils.

I meant moreso to DrD's notion of Revenge-Killing being a good story. It is, to some extent, but should always end with the killer becoming hunted for killing.

Less conflict, more contention I say.

Edit - Rather, less player conflict. PvDM/E conflict is always welcome. Players should be pushing agendas, not slaughtering each other. If everyone's dead, who's going to be the villain or the hero?

Having somewhat of a hunted crowd right now, I can say that you can most definitely make a name for yourself faster, and keep it for longer if you do not kill people. Certainly, beating them down, robbing, or kidnapping them runs a far higher risk of retaliation, it can also make for a far funner experience.

Things like muggings, extortion and kidnapping are far harder to pull off than murder, which is unfortunate, however style goes a long way on EfU.

Secutor Less conflict, more contention I say.

Edit - Rather, less player conflict. PvDM/E conflict is always welcome. Players should be pushing agendas, not slaughtering each other. If everyone's dead, who's going to be the villain or the hero?

Hmm, do you mean less PvP combat or less player conflict overall?

For the first, I agree, as do most people in this discussion.

As for the latter, I don't entirely agree. Although I think sometimes we create conflict that isn't meaningful, i.e. being totally unopen to an Uppersman and a Lowersman getting along, being totally absorbed into the prejudice and hate with little reason other than "I am an X so I hate Y's". Have reasons! Pre-creation reasons are alright so don't get me wrong, but if you're CN Lowersman, you ought to be actively doing things that are causing tension with the Watch/Team Lawful IG and IC. Hate the Watch because they arrested you for a silly crime that a PC Watchie actually saw you doing, caught you doing, beat you needlessly for, etc.. Works the exact same way with Uppersmen too. If you're an Uppersman, when you see some poor guy getting the shit kicked out of him by a drow, react as an Uppersman would if that's the persona you want to play. Intervene, establish order. Make Lower mad by dragging up the attacker (or both guys) to the Watch. Whatever. But do it IG.

Short version of that: Make your enemies IG. You don't have to start out liking everyone, no, not at all. But the story is much more interesting and your character can develop in a much more interesting way if you play out the story, not just write it ahead of time.

Again, I do say, there can and should certainly be exceptions. Playing an Ubel, for instance.

Bringing it back to the original idea:

Less conflict isn't good, I don't think. More conflict would be great if we could allow more "room" for the conflict to bloom from mild distaste to utter hatred. You can't do that if you just start out hating this person or that group already.

Well, that's all my opinion about it at least.

Random_White_Guy

Frankly, regardless of how you do it, killing someone is evil.

Luke Skywalker never killed Vader. He remained CG for wins.

Anakin? He killed out of revenge, and fell to teh dark sied.

Sure, CG people would be more of the "Beat the tar out of the criminal until he gives up his evil ways". But "WOLOLOLOL WTF KILL THAT MAN!" is evil. Regardless of the cause.

There is no justification for murder, in the FR world of black-and-white.

Killing an evil creature, sure. Go for it.

Killing a human? Your hands get stained, Macbeth style. Even in "Self Defense". You could subdue them, drag them to jail, etc.

If the DMs put harsher, yet 100% realistic penalties on murder, I believe the PvP train will slow back a bit.

CG says

Chaotic Good, “Rebel”: A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. A ranger who waylays the evil baron's tax collectors is chaotic good.

A GC follows their own morality, a band of rebels fighting and killing soldiers of a oppressive regime or slaying a mobster that terrorizes people is not an evil act. Killing someone = evil is more of a societal wrong in the Underdark if it is considered to be, especially in such a dangerous environment.

In EfU... Boondock Saints = CG imo.

MisterPAIN

In EfU... Boondock Saints = CG imo.

Afraid we'll have to agree to disagree then. While they were "On a mission from god", The Duke was already thrown in prison for various murders. The qualms of not killing women and children are common amongst LE people. They had morals, just horribly skewed.

Clandetinus I'd like to bumb this thread, and ask everyone reads it.

I've just had a character that I was very fond of killed for a reason that was nothing short of rediculous.

I know I'm all "grrr" about it at the moment, but it would have been so much more entertaining to roleplay the conflict between these certain characters instead of just going straight out and killing.

This is a storytelling server, guys. How many stories do you know where the main chracters die in the first chapter? It'd make a pretty crappy story.

Im sorry you feel that way bro but the thing is the characters persona was of an arrogant nature which I had observed with different characters ...such as the time the blade was stuck to a back...it was only a matter of time before he ran into some trouble.

Lowers for instance I remember not so long ago as a lvl 3 wizard and had a ranger with him we got creamed by a team of six goblins ...no rhyme or reason ...just "things ..happen in lowers". The lead up to the initial confrontation was deep seeded as the halfling showed up with another pc who took direct aim with a bow at a friend of Falkirs ...for which he began to take a defensive stance ...which was followed by the "you try anything mate and Ill Kill you in 2 seconds .etc..etc".

Now when you take the monks life into account of how he deals with such threats and then the aftermath result later in which was subtle ...away from any witnesses..and was a struggle to the death ...blaze of glory material dude ...i just didnt want to over dramatise the whole thing ...I know loss sucks etc..been there plenty myself bro.

Erm not trying to cause a fuss or anything but it seems odd that on the one hand the Dm team say in the forums that they prefer Pvp to be non lethal to encourage rp. Yet at the same time we have a dm controlled Npc calling for death matches (or what pretty much are ones)

Those, however, are completely voulenteered.

The DMs from time to time do massive death-causing events (Such as escape quests, or overtly difficult DM quests, with high chance of perma but also high chance for extreme loot or glory), and folks who choose to partake are aware of such, so it is outside this discussion.

This may be an over-simplification, but I think common sense sort of dictates these situations.

I've been on both sides, and my last char was eliminated in a very unsatisfying way. I have also been guilty of ending other players chars in unsatisfying ways.

I think it's best to remember that there is another person on the other side of things. Of course there are situations you don't want to let a particularly deadly opponent live, but if a DM is present, and you could just as easily haul that char in for trial, why slay them as they lay helpless before you?

While there are some great suggestions in this thread, please don't use this to whine or complain about a FD that may have happened to you in the coming days. (Not a dig at Pup!)

There are simply some situations in game that warrant a FD, and crossing paths with the wrong people and refusing to budge from whatever it was that got you in trouble in the first place can definitely earn you a ticket to fugue-town.

Lots of great ideas in here, keep them up!

8)

There is a happy medium between an over-abundance of FD PvP (jumping to FD too soon), and too little (never FD'ing even when it's been well earned, avoiding PvP, and so on).

Both are bad.

Moderation is good!

Bash some of their teeth out, and make a necklace of them!