Oh wait.

This isn't Halo.

This is Neverwinter Nights, and this is a persistent world Roleplaying Server. It seems there is a very fashionable craze spinning around where the only way people seem to think that conflict can be resolved between two groups is murder.

Of course, things can end in a brutal killing of an enemy, in due time. However, I would remind you all that the most interesting rivalries are the ones that are not ended swiftly by killings.

Here is a very short example;

Big Bill Danielson and Winston detested eachother, but made their hatred full of subtle jabs at one another. Neither was fully prepared to murder the other, no matter how much they despised one another. Bombings happened because of this, PC's were hired on both sides to slander the other, and it was an overall amazing little rivalry.

Well...

When you skip all the foreplay, and move right on to the big show, you effectively create the most boring story known to man.

Weave interesting stories.

Killing does not equal winning.

Stop and think about what your character would do, not what you the player really wants to do, before you decide to FD someone.

Thanks!

I will trial and execute you, wcsherry... ;)

This is absolutely true. While EfU is a harsh, hardcore server; it is also a story-telling server.

Lately, I have been seeing people trying to "win it" at the cost of interesting conflicts. This usually makes for a poor story, and also encourages me to utterly ignore you!

Not that it really matters, but I agree with one reservation.

I believe this is about the recent bloodshed between Team Upper and Team Lower. It has had a large, negative effect on my main character. But I think there's more to it.

This fight has been going on FOREVER. It will keep going on, even when all the PCs involved are dead. And I don't agree with the notion that bombings are more interesting than murders. Bombings are a dime-a-dozen here. It's almost ludicrous, why don't we just start building our structures out of wood and straw so we can rebuild them faster? I can't think of a single main faction that HASN'T been bombed at least once. Some have been bombed twice.

I'm not condoning the rampant Full Damage PvPing. I don't like it either, I wish things could build up a lot more. But in this particular case, I don't know if the intensity between Upper and Lower could be any more ready for bloodshed. Although it would be nice for everyone to realize that their characters might be a little more afraid of death than the player is making them. Noone ever seems to consider peaceful solutions, sadly. These CAN and SHOULD be fun too.

Yea, well, so I believe at least.

By no means do I think bombings are any bit more interesting than murder. The bombing just sort of serves as a warning of sorts. Any sort of warning or threat is better than an instant kill.

I was just using that example as it was the first one that came to mind.

(ironically so as I ended up killing that NPC! :/)

Sherry theres a reason why people dont do intresting RP like Little Jabs. From Rp Expierience.

Like if you say beat a guy to the floor and threatean him you can damn well bet he is going to make a sending get friends and kill you pure and simple.

If you threatean a guy he will likely come back and kill you.

I have been attacked and then payed a mage to be fully buffed and kill that player.

There was this one player aparantly who was trying to subdue me who attacked me before. He trys to attack me again so I kick his ass then kill him when hes on the floor and then Im Removed from the CDL.

The point is Sherry your ramblings are easy for the immortal Dms. But us Pcs Who Hesitate often get ganked by the Pc Annd there friends and we wonder why didnt we just kill him?

PS One of the greatest funnest evilest Factions was killed because we wanted to do something rather intresting to one of our Foes rather than kill him with the rest of his group of people. (our consenquence for trying to do something intresting is him running away and ganking most of us.)

Terry Macaddies Hookswords Mealdread and tons of others probably know about this incident.

The truth is if us pcs do intresting stuff the other side just kills us with 10x Support. (or at least thats how ive expierienced it.)

Dr. Dragon,

The greatest heroes and most notorious villains make a name for themselves because they are not afraid of their enemies. They defeat them soundly, harangue them like the dogs they are, and send them packing in humility.

Or at least, to me, the most interesting heroes and villains do it. Without a rival, or enemy to conspire and work against, what fun is playing? What purpose does your PC have? PC conflict is at the very heart and soul of EFU. To kill your enemy is to end that.

Lastly,

It takes huge balls to let your enemies live, after you've thrashed them and humiliated them. Yes, you know they are going to form a posse and come looking for you. Killing is much easier. That said and done, those that go to greater lengths to provide fun for all are provided with more fun from us as a DM team. Weaving tales of revenge, hatred, bitter rivalries, and lengthy quarrels are what are interesting.

So you die. You don't lose EFU if you die. You just wrote a great story. Now write the next one, while we watch and augment it positively every step of the way.

Hope that clears it up, Dr.

Thank you for posting this Sherry. I've been operating under the assumption that the DMs reward overt conflict (attacking and murdering other PCs) more readily than story building. I've gotten XP from both things, but in the case of player conflict, it seems disturbingly easier to acquire. Of course, I can count the number of times I've recieved DM XP on my right hand, so I may be unfairly biased in this regard.

Still, from what a few other players have shared with me OOCly, it seems violence agianst other PCs pays off in terms of XP and DM attention, if you can stay alive for any length of time. Admittedly, none of the PvP events I have OOC knowledge of giving DM XP resulted in perma-death, so perhaps this is exactly in line with what Sherry has been saying about story building.

The only other support I can offer for my reasons for believing the DMs reward overt conflict is that the entire server seems geared towards a) picking a side and b) duking it out until you're fugued. The rivalry between Upper and Lower, the Watch and the Spellguard, Paladins and the RP killer that is DE, and the monotheistic insanity of having 200 religions with codes of behavior to enforce and preprogrammed enemies. I am not saying that I wish to see these things done away with entirely, as I think these all have the potential to make INTERESTING conflict, but handing out do or die missions and stacking the XP and goodies on the ones who come out on top is definately sending the wrong message.

Of course, maybe the DM team doesn't reward the players who manage to defeat a bunch of other PCs and my views on this topic are hopelessly skewed. The point is, I believe the DM team would reward me if I did exactly that, despite the fact that I wouldn't as murdering PCs for little to no reason (omg ur a kobold, omg ur a banite, omg ur ghey, etc.) isn't fun for me. If I believe this, then am I alone in this assumption?

It's just my DMing playstyle, but I reward characters I find interesting as people over characters who have a long resumee of accomplishments. Going along with what sherry is saying, a character who can promote the conflict in an interesting rivalry instead of skipping the creamy filling is infinitely more interesting to me than the average min-maxed half-orc psychotic who can brag about how he murdered eight people in one swing of the axe with one hand tied behind his back.

I'd also like to note that if you win a conflict outright, consider giving your enemy a chance, especially if you have a significant level difference over them. Yes, it may sound crazy but it'll be more interesting in the long-run. I recall an instance I had with a previous character of mine who jumped Terry's character, Agent Sennik. I stole a key of his which gave him a wild goose chase to get it back. This defined their relationship, which spiraled into a complicated mess that kept me logging on for hours just to see what would happen next. It was the best character rivalry I've ever had. In the end, Agent Sennik won but hey, the journey was definitely worth it. (Sure, I could've killed him so he'd keep hush but where's the fun in that?)

Before there are any misconceptions here, the conflict that is currently going on between Upper and Lower is awesome. It adds a lot to the server, and I'm glad things are moving that way. There are lots of great PC's on both sides of the hostilities, and I'm sure the players will all handle themselves fine.

Just to address PvP and killing drawing attention, you're right on that. If anything is going to draw a DM to the area or situation present, it will be a killing. I don't really want to list the PC's here that have gotten loads of attention and praise for how they reacted with their foes.

You would be wrong, yeah. I mean, of course, the inevitable happens, and yes we expect deaths. We would like to see a beautifully composed crescendo though, ideally. One that begins with harsh words and a good old fashioned beat down, slowly moving along to threats of death, perhaps the harming of loved ones, and then BAM. It's over because someone refused to co-operate.

If you defeat your opponents in a way that is fun for everyone involved, then of course we should reward you! Think longterm here, at any rate. Your PC might be getting attention because yes, he's involved in some butcher-fest madness. That doesn't mean we like it, and it doesn't mean we'll be particularly inclined to follow your new creation around when that one dies.

Phew. Getting tired. Hopefully that answered everything.

Well, for instance -- I think the two path can be taken for any kind of goal you might give your characters, it just require more creativity.

For example, a fictional character might have as some goals:

I oppose the council as I see a multitude of leaders as an extremely bad thing, a single leader will be required. As I see the multitude of religions also are a bad thing, also will try to achieve a monotheistic state for the city.

A) Kill all councilors and people of other faiths.

or

B) Find propaganda and organize events in order to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of the Council and the necessity for a single leader. Start war against two faith by spreading lies to demonstrate their ineffectiveness and recruit people to my own more monotheistic one.

Option B, although taking a substantial more amount of time and perhaps sparkled with bits and pieces of option A is more desirable.

Alas Option A will get more direct attention and might be noticed faster but it is generally bad press.

I'm glad wcsherry brought this up. I totally agree with him.

It can be very easy to get caught up in the competitiveness of the game, but those players who really stand out for me transcend this competitiveness, and put themselves in situations which are designed to maximize the enjoyment for all parties involved, rather than for hollow self-gratification, or the minimization of the risks of character death.

Killing other characters frivolously and without any prior rivalry falls into the latter category. If you do this, that's fine. Nobody is going to stop you, but it isn't going to reflect well on what other people think about you or your character, and it certainly isn't going to get you more DM attention.

I'm really glad someone made this post. As a sidenote, people who show mercy are much more likely to get it. If you don't give me the impression that you're going to heal, buff, and FD me, I can't stress how much more likely I'll be to spare your character.

While I sympathize with Dr.Dragon, I lean towards Sherry's viewpoint. While I was never in an incident of pure faction hatred (Which is why I need to join a DM faction <.<) in which I was forced to pick option A, or B, I feel that letting your opponent live is far better play off than the other options. I have been given Kudo's for randomly attacking Dr.Dragon's hobgoblin and letting him live, while I never actually was provoked, I was a CE monk and was pissed off that I was gimped, but I never had an reason for killing him.

It's the sorta thing one would expect from situations like this, people die, but let them die in such an awesome manner that they won't have hard feelings, torture them, throw them against walls, knock there brains out before killing them!

I personally agree with Dr D (Holy shit there's a first time for everything)

Before my elongated hiatus. I found that anything short of instant FDs resulted in a small group coming and finding you and handing you a one way trip to the fugue. I personally avoid PvP like the plague on this server as I just don't find it fun, but it NEVER ends well. I have let people live twice. And both times my PC has been pwned by revenge groups when they were by themselves and none of his friend were online. It was one of the things that contributed to my lul in playing .

Although, maybe I just caught the bad side of the coin.

Well it's pretty much all been said but I'll throw my two cents in.

Personally, I prefer the idea of always giving a person a second chance. Whether they just 'messed with the wrong person". Or thats just how their character is when they get to Sancutary, a good beating can give a PC a good chance to develop their character. Something I also like to try and remember is that all PCs are someone's character. Some people don't care if their PCs are killed. Others do. It does mean a lot more if your PC dies doing something, not just because someone in a bad mood ran across them.

As for XP, I'm certain the DMs would give much more for an elaborate play of RP than just slashing a PC to death. As far as villians go, better your victims live to spread tale of your infamy, than die at your hand. (NPCS can be good for that)

All that being said, people will get what they give. If your PC is merciless, no mercy will be given to them.

Ok, I've re-iterrated everyone's elses statements enough.

In all honesty, though it's probably more because I'm just no fan of PvP, I find it dreadfully simple to kill a long-time opponent one on one in an alley. Sooner, though, again, this is just my style of play, I'd get someone else to do it or involve as many other people in it as I can.

What this does, is that it not only opens up the characters' story, but it involves other people in what you're doing, resulting in things not being over when you've won. Allies could chicken out, as could opponents, anything that takes the possibly final end of a long rope of RP to a different character, so they can tie it on to a new one, and keep the story going. Real plots don't fall out of the blue. They're usually set in motion by the DMs. What a player can do is keep this ball rolling by never really ending a story - get other people involved, to carry it on, or take up new branches, or whatever. Don't let it end. The longer a plot keeps going, the thicker it gets, which is what I like.

I agree with the letting people live bit. Theres been so many people it would be perfectly IC to just kill them, but I've let 90% of them live, and some of them have become allies, some enemies, but both ways, its fun as hell on either side, because of the interactions.

However. Sometimes the only IC to do is to do a quick /c subdual full. as IC circumstance dictates. But I do think it is better to have a good reason before doing so. (not that i'm saying i've never had an itchy FD finger, but I'm usually able to resist it, as most of us do)

But the stories - unless people know you just FD'd the person, are usually way more interesting if the enemy lives.

But sometimes a secret murder can also change a character. The guilt the stress of hiding it and makin sure no one finds out. It's really a two sided knife.

But I guess the main point of this is - Don't be lame, Do what will makes things more interesting and fun for yourself AND others!

I mean the only person that I myself have actually killed (FD), I've sent them a tell asking it they minded, and if they minded the method I selected to do it. This keeps it cool and fun for everyone. but not everyone has to do this heh.

I need to make a point here as well. And this is no fault of efU but roleplaying in general. The act of FDing someone is an enforced negative act that you can enact on another PC. This thread is asking people to look for alternatives to FD as an enforced negative activity. But the problem is, there are no others besides the afformentioned FD.

Stern beatings can be shrugged off as people rarely RP their Uninjured/Barely Injured/Near Death etc states, Broken fingers and mutilations can be negated by the flick of a wand or the downing of a relatively cheap draft. Slander and lies can be cast off after a brief post in the Public notices section. Friends can be ressurected, Money can be re-earned, people go through loot so fast that theft makes a veritably miniscule dink in a players plans and character. There are few other options beside killing a player. And as I said, thats not EfU#s fault.

That's just D&D for you.

I concur with wcsherry's position.

There are few other options beside killing a player. And as I said, thats not EfU#s fault.

Please, let's stick to killing characters. It's a far better option than killing players!

On the topic though, I've found that while things like beatings, theft, lies, slander, threats and so on are generally ineffective as a deterrent, I heartily encourage players to do them nonetheless. Why? Because it's stylish. Because it's something your character would do. Because it makes for a more interesting story. Because it's the stereotypical thing to do. Are you shooting yourself in the foot? Most likely. But it's far more fun to cripple oneself for the sake of the story than to FD a character for the sake of winning.

Winning does not always mean fun!

The guy you let live is coming after you with a revenge group? Awesome. The spotlight's on you! Give them a good show.

You seriously have not lived until you've earned your own 10-man hunting squad after your blood. It is some amazing fun.

wcsherry You seriously have not lived until you've earned your own 10-man hunting squad after your blood. It is some amazing fun.

IRL, of course.

MasterAvenger Please, let's stick to killing characters. It's a far better option than killing players!

Liar.

OMG DOUBLE OFF-TOPIC POST

I started reading this topic, hoping this was some kind of announcement for a Halo 3 type event... I was greatly disappointed, when I found out people already did this kind of thing, and I wasn't invited.

In all seriousness, though.

I am in concurance with the rest of the group.

Well, as someone who has played 2 slander and blackmail type characters, I have to say this server Isn't exactly well suited for them. You tend to slander, do well for a small bit, then a gigantic adventuring party tracks you down and pwnz you, lead by the person you slandered. :lol:

I find that people often say things that make them look good, then do another, however.

I suggest sticking this thread of wisdom. It would be savored for all time as something -we- want to see within the server.

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, since your vaguely, seemingly angry post is not direct, so I'll answer as if it is dirercted at me. My history is filled with all kinds of PvP that was probably not fun for the other party; it has also involved deaths that I was left feeling sour about. That doesn't mean we can't come together and discuss how things should be, in an ideal gameworld where we all treat eachother as fairly, and with the ideals of the greatest amount of entertainment for everyone assured.

For those of you who follow up on your stated agreements with wcsherry, expect some excellent rewards from myself, and probably the DM team as a whole. We love to see people who conduct themselves with taste and style, rather than resorting to FD as a first course of action. Its easy to FD someone, but it takes real balls to let them crawl away alive.

And for those 'winners' out there, expect nothing! I will be giving you a wide berth.

My vague, seemingly angry, post, was saying that while everyone is agreeing with the original post, it is rather pointless for everyone to jump on the bandwagon if they are not performing the same things IG. Every time a DM makes a thread which says that something should happen, everyone jumps on the bandwagon, proclaiming that they do this, yet months later, the post is buried in dust and primarily ignored. If you felt insulted by my post, I'm sorry, I had no intentions of making anyone feel bad!

Finally, it feels good to be a loser.

9lives Finally, it feels good to be a loser.

Probably the thing that kept up my interest in Zeezin was losing a PvP that the other player let me walk away from. I haven't even seen him on the server since the event, but he paved the way for some cool stuff to happen to me.

One of the first things to happen to me on this server was my fighter getting in a punchup, and the beaten party telling her he would get revenge by killing her at first opportunity.

To me something like that seems like fair grounds for full damage, if encountered in future, for a character of that alignment, if they took the threat seriously.

In contrast insults or differences of view have led to mere brawls which I'd consider entirely appropriate level of violence for such. I didn't, nor I think did the others in those occurences intend, or expect, FD outcome.

Dealing out death for a nonpersonal robbery also seems a bit heavy. They did not take your life, only items, why not do the same back?

I disagree with Cluckyx in that no other options exist ; they are more cumbersome and may require a DM, but more is possible. To start with, if you rob them they're effectively weakened and unable to come after you until they build up whatever consumables they feel they need. If you get an inkling they bear a grudge against you for letting them live, mug them again and clean them out again. Wizards could have their spellbooks torn up (if a DM is willing to delete spells from the characters known list), archers can have a hand cut off or an eye gouged out (if a DM is willing to make two handed weapons unequippable for them, or inflict a permanent ranged AB penalty). From what the DMs have stated in this thread, they want other options than a FD and will probably be willing to help with crippling, disabling, or what have you. Imprisonment would be a great option as well.

People have stated that to let someone go after a mugging is to risk having a mob descend when people look at the player list and see your allies aren't on. This sounds amazingly lame, yet might be avoidable by using disguises and sticking to out of the way places for awhile. You could also keep tabs on that person by paying for information about what they're up to, and who they're spending time with.

I'm not saying I would always do these things as they're highly situational, and I'm not saying anyone else should do them, they're just a few alternatives that might or might not be helpful to consider.

Thanks for clarifying.

Look. There will be constant reminders of this advice** all around. You'll notice that the people who are here to win will have nothing, and will probably get few perks, while the people that are here to show everyone a good time, will be bathed in attention and loot.

And Wiggyboy. You'll get all the Wiggyboy you want. If that doesn't seal the deal, I don't know what will.

Edited for clarity**

God, I love Wiggyboy.

Thankfully, there's a lot to go around.

(lolfat).

The ladies call him Wigglyboy for a reason.

That's unfair. In all the Wiggyboy quests I've done, there's only been one where I died more than four times, and dropped from nearly level 7, to level 3. It could have happened with any DM or quest. (Try being a Spellguard sorcerer and leading a mob of sellswords to assault a heavily armed fortress, filled with beholders, Drow, and all manner of things foul... with anti-invis wards, numerous crossbowmen on walls... explosives and artillery...)

Er... actually, come to think of it, there's only been one Wiggyboy quest that I can recall doing...

More on topic, I never win PvP, regardless of whether I'm the aggressor or the victim, uhm, so please don't kill me! While in the midst of executing a hobgoblin in chains with two other people, I was still knocked down to half health. :?

Cutting off appendages can be rather cool, as long as you don't go overboard. If someone makes a handsome gallant knight, they might not want to play a horribly mutilated cripple, with no arms, one leg, a missing eye, no nose, and burn marks across the entirety of their body with the cruely given nickname, Gorgeous George.

Also, I get the feeling there are more people with psychopathic tendencies than I think there should be. Every fourth person I meet seems to have the makings of a serial killer. I think this comes from the lack of any real consequences in the real world, coupled with the fact you're not actually killing anyone, just their character. Just try to keep in mind that it's normal for humans and I guess (Gnomes, Elves, whatever) to have an in-built sense of morality, and empathy. In other words, you would likely almost always have a feeling of guilt/remorse, when/after committing murder in cold blood

At the end it boils down to it who is the other player behind the character you are PvPing with and how he/she reacts on the PvP both ICly and OOCly. That's all what counts. If he is good player and appreciates the situ and sees you also did everything to make it fun and it also makes ense ICly it will be all right. If not, retribution party will be on his way which has both IC or OOC reasons.

You can see that the mathematical chance to get the revenge on your neck is much higher than not. But it could be a restraining force for everyone to not PvP carelessly.

Nickless Also, I get the feeling there are more people with psychopathic tendencies than I think there should be. Every fourth person I meet seems to have the makings of a serial killer. I think this comes from the lack of any real consequences in the real world, coupled with the fact you're not actually killing anyone, just their character. Just try to keep in mind that it's normal for humans and I guess (Gnomes, Elves, whatever) to have an in-built sense of morality, and empathy. In other words, you would likely almost always have a feeling of guilt/remorse, when/after committing murder in cold blood

While I agree with you if we're talking about real life, you have to remember that in this Campaign Setting, Evil is not an arbitrarily-defined set of behaviors, but an actual driving force of reality. People who are inclined to do/be evil in the Forgotten Realms would not suffer from great remorse from performing acts that we may think as utterly despicable in our daily lives.

Mystic_warden At the end it boils down to it who is the other player behind the character you are PvPing with and how he/she reacts on the PvP both ICly and OOCly. That's all what counts. If he is good player and appreciates the situ and sees you also did everything to make it fun and it also makes ense ICly it will be all right. If not, retribution party will be on his way which has both IC or OOC reasons.

You can see that the mathematical chance to get the revenge on your neck is much higher than not. But it could be a restraining force for everyone to not PvP carelessly.

Your post reveals another facet of the PVP-geared mentality. When you kill someone, it's -absolutely- warranted, from an IC standpoint, for their friends/allies/mentors/followers to come gunning for you with a ten-man ganksquad. Why? Because you -killed- someone. You removed any chance of them ever interacting with that person again, and they want to pay back in kind. I think a lot of the revenge-ism that goes on in EfU would be toned down (and not at all in detriment of the story-telling) if people would resort less to killing, and more to alternative solutions. If you don't kill someone, their friends are much less likely to come looking for you so they can kill you. They might come to try and teach you a lesson, instead. And that's the sort of build-up we're looking for.

Which doesn't mean you still can't feel guilty or sick with yourself because you did what you had to do. You just murdered a man in cold blood, true, he was a well intentioned Lower extremist and would have caused problems for the entire town in the long run, but you were still responsible for snuffing out a life with your own hand.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that I'd like there to be more feelings of guilt, and insecurity after murder. An example would probably be the eponymous hero in Macbeth.

Evil and good are only absolute for members of the Upper and Lower planes, I see good and evil in Faerun to mostly represent whether or not a character is able to overcome their morality, or is a slave to them.

It is all character dependent, Nickless. Just stick to your concept and everything will be fine.

I dont see any trouble in be evil or good, maybe is more dificult "think and act" like one, but all done must be ever done by the character and not impute to the person who plays it. we must have this in mind.

When my character has subdualed/beat-down other characters before, I certainly did not have the expectation that the conflict was "won" and that the other player could no longer fairly work against me. My character may have stated that IC ("Don't ever attack me again, or I'll kill you next time"), but I really have no issue with people coming back again to try to FD my character or even getting his friends to help.

So although I'd encourage people not to FD the first time, I don't really accept the argument that people who respond to a beatdown by getting help or continuing the conflict are in some way disrespecting the "courtesy" of only being beaten-down. Obviously people should roleplay their characters well and in many situations that will mean IC terror or caution, but I'd rather not interject some kind of OOC-based sportsmanship rule about beaten-down PCs not being allowed to respond to the one who defeated them the first time.

Having a large group of characters hunting you can be an exciting, fun experience and one that I do not think should be avoided for OOC reasons. Defeating such a large group, or running away from it, are all perfectly legitimate and possible things to do on this server.

I think there's a distinction between 'getting help' and 'rounding up a ganksquad the second you're out of their sight'. The prior assumes a good level of roleplay on your part, as well as your character's internal decision to indeed go looking for revenge against a foe who has proved themselves superior at least once. It also assumes that you've realized your foe's intention wasn't to kill you, so he isn't -that- serious. Finding people to instantly go after him (which is what the latter means, to me) is failing to realize that he's the one who offered you alternatives other than killing people in the first place.

By all means, stay true to your concepts and play IC all the time. It's not 'sportsmanship', though, to get a little distance and perspective before going for revenge. Trying to approach your foe in a non-aggressive manner may even (and often will) further your goals more than simply ganking them on sight.

- K

I've been loathe to post this, and especially right after my own character was executed, but I will anyway, and hope that people understand I am not doing this out of malice or hatred for what happened. This post implicitely implies a double-standard, which is both subtle and glaringly obvious. The double standard, and flaw in reasoning, is "Team Law," or the law enforcers.

Indulge me, as I give an example. A group of people do something which gets Team Law's attention. It may be subduing people, and not even taking anything. This will earn the group to attempt to catch you, and bring you in for justice. If you resist, and beat them down, subduing them and either taking or not taking, that adds more to your crime list, even though you are doing exactly what this post is saying-- trying to make conflict without FD. The logical responce to this is for team law to continue to pursue you. This is not a problem, and I am not complaining about it. Eventually, the criminals are captured and arrested, and usually executed, the first time the Watch gets a criminal.

That's all fine. But when you look at it, the criminals tried to lengthen the conflict, and didn't kill the law enforcers when they could have. Yet the first time the law wins, the criminals are FDed. Multiple DMs have said that they do not like, and will not give rewards to people who do this. Yet, this only seems to happen if it is two independant parties attacking each other. There is also a double standad going in the strain of threads here-- some people say act your character, and the original post was about lengthening conflict. But they are not always compatable. If acting your character is killing all threats when you win, does that earn the ire (used loosely, of course) of the DMs?

When a "criminal" is wealthy and strong enough to consistantly fight off attacks, like Aleczumberzail, then I see how continuing the fighting is desireable. Yet for most, a single fight will use up all supplies, leaving the hunted helples unless they quest more to get money. Still, I am not complaining, or saying that this is bad. I am not being hostile. I am merely pointing out what I consider to be double standards. I know that dying will earn you brownie points with the DMs for future characters. But at the same time, the law enforcers get perks for FDing the first time they win.

What is my point with all of this? Not much, really. I would just like for this to be recognized. I do not want anything to be done about it, specifically. I only want, especially DMs, to recognize there is a double standard, and to understand that that is why most want to end conflict early. The server used to be low magic, with L8 being the highest. Everything has been accelerated recently. Recently, there have been two L11's gracing the server, which has never been seen before except by a character about to be ended. Loot is getting amazingly high, for everyone, not one party in particular. Do the people who have this not deserve it? I dunno. I am positive they are amazing characters, and from my interactions that has proven true. And so, interactions between characters has sped up. Conflicts start, and end, in different ways than they have before, and usually more quickly. All I want is for this to be recognized, and I would speak with anyone in IRC if they wish, and they can PM my account (TRB) instead of getting into a flame war over the forums about it.

Not trying to be cheeky or rude but the truth is if your associated with a group that are known to kill people or calling ic for people to be killed your more likely to be killed yourself even if you never personally killed anyone. The same holds true if you make a character that breaks the law its not double standard because you Ic broke a law which states that a punishment for which can be death and clearly states so.

Simple fact is if you don't want team law killing you either via full damage or a trial then don't be part of something that will get the law after you.

Of course it's different for law enforcement. I think that's obvious?

The only way I figured of giving a chance to "unaware" criminals is by giving a warning before proceeding to Arrest. "You are under arrest, please comply." etc.

Disguises are fair game too, we try our best to respect that and make sure to only work with the descriptive information we have on hand.

So if the criminal wants to have a chance at escaping, he can and it wont be a total landslide in my favor. I'll still try to arrest you to the best of my capacity then, but you have a better chance of getting away.

The second time around or with people that know they are 'wanted', there is no warning and it's up to the trial to decide...

We cant stretch it more than that without appearing corrupted or negligent. :(

I think it's working 'ok' so far since we have a large amount of open warrants and free criminals out there...but I'm also open to feedback to improve and I am very responsive to suggestions from the wanted posse having played eb0l or criminals often myself.

Metro: I think what activity.series is trying to say is, yes it is obvious that it has to work that way, but then people need to be more understanding when criminals FD immediately instead of drawing things out.

From all of these posts it appears that:

Team bad is being asked to draw out conflict. Team good/non-official is being asked to draw out conflict. Team Law/official FDs immediately by the nature of their position.

It makes it difficult for team bad to draw things out as it puts them in a greater risk of losing a character sooner rather than later.

It has to work that way or the Watch wouldn't make sense, but I can see how it can make team bad feel frustrated.

Vanfolkenfanel: it is easy to say if you don't want the consequences don't play those characters, but if the people who play bad guys on this server are giving the server a warning that it is becoming less fun, maybe people need to listen. How interesting would it be if everyone took your advice and just stopped playing characters that cross the Watch?

It's not about winning or losing. FDing solely because you're afraid of being caught by the fuzz means you should not be playing a criminal on EFU, ever.

There are ways to gurantee no one tells the fuz but those things are easy to find and Foig.

Even though I hate to give IC examples on threads like this, let me give this one, because I feel it'll serve to illustrate the point:

Lysik was captured and tried. During the process of the trial, the possibility of him not being stoned came up several times. The prosecution had to work towards that consistently, and I believe things went the way they did not so much because there was overwhelming evidence, but because,

The day before the re-trial, a member of the prosecution was caught and killed by known associates of the accused. I'm not saying this is what made the execution possible, but you understand how it's a two-way street?

Finally, I'll point out, in regards to what happened in the in-between yesterday, for example: The members of "Team Law" were likely responding to an action which was taken by your character and her associates, TRB. You killed someone - someone who wouldn't cooperate or divulge the information you wanted. But how hard did you try? Was it really necessary to kill? Letting a law enforcer take the walk of shame back to town in nothing but their birthday suit (as you were able to ascertain not two days ago) causes much more damage to them, their careers than killing them. Killing people in these situations enshrines them as martyrs, who died for something and now must be avenged. Sending people back in the buff shows their superiors that they are incompetent, and perhaps cowardly enough to beg for mercy.

What I mean to say is, sure, Team Law gets to execute people. But there are a -number- of ways the execution process can be influenced by any character on the server. Elect puppet councilors. Present contradictory evidence. Bring a character with high social skills in to act as a barrister. Kidnap a law enforcer and propose a prisoner trade. Force a downed law enforcer to go into the trial and bail someone out, on pain of never getting her law enforcement gear back, and thus looking like a dumbass to her superiors. Do whatever you can. Killing people will always backfire into people trying to kill you back. In a trial, independent of who the characters involved are, there is always oversight by a third party (the councilors) who aren't biased one way or another (if they are, good job for the side that was able to tip them in their direction, too bad for those who weren't) and thus aren't necessarily beholden to this or that party's interests. When you subdue someone in the middle of nowhere, your intentions are all that will guide the story of that character. Make sure you pick something that won't end up with a firestorm on your ass. If you do, make sure you can take the heat. If you can't, don't complain. Losing characters because you made someone who's stronger than you mad enough to kill you is part of this server.

- K

[EDIT:] Spelling and clarification.

Also its very rare that the law enforces themselves ever just straight out FD'S a person usually they are taken to trial first but at the end of the day if they have enough evidence to hang you they will hang you.

After having discussed situations which have been portrayed in this thread with TRB, I'd like to make an addendum to my previous post:

In that specific example picture there, I thought TRB and his character had choices, but speaking with him and understanding the rationale for his actions, I can see how one would be inclined to think that no matter what the course they chose, it would end in FD for them.

Whether or not this asymmetry between the 'Law' and the 'Crime' sides of EfU is intended, is something best left for DMs to rule and discuss upon. I'm not taking a side either way, but, for what it's worth, my opinion is that in this particular event, TRB as a player had the choice to let someone live or kill them, but face the exact same consequences in the aftermath.

I could be wrong or not, here. I can't speak for the other players involved.

- K.

~Sigh~ Woe be the days gone when exile was a meaningful sentence. Still Activity.Series is not wrong about there being a double standard. Executions come very easy of late. However, that is how it how it has progressed ICly and there is nothing wrong with it. As long as people choose the battle grounds of the individual verse the state one cannot expect much more. Team law cannot bend- or they could, but because of the current system, they do not have enough room to do so.

Example: If lower had just killed every watchman, every agent, and everyone in between- then it would have been a failed story. Death would be rampant, mean little to the players of that character, and the whole reason to fight would be to win, rather then create something that could be cherished. However there is only one way it could've ended.

Though, it would be nice to schedual executions so people that aren't online at the time could at least have the opportunity to react to that public sending. Whether that be through cheers, escapes, or protests. I think we lose something when they are caught and killed within the same hour. At least, from the stories prospective.

I think that if you commit capital crimes, then you should be on constant lookout because Team Law -are- going to be after you. It just makes sense ICly, and to the setting, that if someone commits capital crimes, there's a good chance they'll be executed.

Let's steer well clear of using specific examples involving people's current PCs, as it tends to convolute the topic easily.

There are heaps of options available to evade the law; disguises, fleeing arrest attempts, beating the law down- and, crucially, not allowing your crimes to ever be known by the law in the first place. Other options exist, too.

As PCs in law enforcement are merely doing their ICly-ordained jobs when it comes to bringing in criminals and executing them, no double standard really exists!

Its tougher to play a successful criminal than a successful law-abiding citizen, which makes sense.

Kiaring's post above is excellent, BTW.

Mostly repeating whats been said but I'll add my bit of nouse to it.

From my personal experience, leaving your enemies to lick their wounds and wander off to cry is far more rewarding than going "Haha your mine!" *FD*

Some people who just play to win will obviously round up a gank squad to kill you but thats the underdark for you, you don't see creatures roaming the underdark by themselves do you?

Now if the guy you just beat to a pulp is here for the roleplay experience then they could take this a few ways :-

"Wow if I took that beating then I'd steer clear from that guy" or "I could do with that guys help with what I've got planned, better get on his good side"

Now I'll raise my hands and say I've done the whole "FD the first person that even looks at you oddly". I've also done the "let the whelp live" and found that the 2nd option was not only more rewarding, but also more fun. I had shown my superiority and I also got involved in a variety of plots the characters were involved in which I could of ended with a click of a button.

I generally agree with the other DMs who posted in this thread, but at the request of a player I just want to mention that much of what has been said here is suggestion, not rule. Our PvP policy is posted in the Information for New Players forum, and if your character has a "good and justifiable IC reason" for killing another character, you may do so. We are a full PvP server, and there are many, many incidents in which FD PvP is appropriate.

I do not personally buy the argument that people should FD out of concern for avoiding retalation, and I also prefer that people work to prolong meaningful conflict, but there will certainly be some situations in which a straight-up FD is what your character is going to do and should do.

Yes, all very true, these are just suggestions for having fun on EFU.

I wrote this up because some of my fondest memories of EFU PvP were between my silly goblin and Denethen's hateful halfling watchman that brutalized me on a daily basis. Whenever we saw eachother, we exchanged hateful words, and there was a dust-up.

Having a nemesis is sweet.

Ya Sherry I remember my first char had been Pwned by Your goblin when I tried to aid a Dwarf in beating you to the floor. You basically kicked my ass and was all "Very Unwise To Attack me." So I thank you sherry for not sacrificing and eating me. Also I once got involved in something more big then I thought. I subdued some random chick in a inn room at the crone. Then her friend jumps in to look like the savior but it turned out they where both evil Cultists and that is how I accidently joined an evil cult.

Also Sherry I never had a gank squad after you I just had the "Ok hes on my list of people not to mess with."

wcsherry I wrote this up because some of my fondest memories of EFU PvP were between my silly goblin and Denethen's hateful halfling watchman that brutalized me on a daily basis. Whenever we saw eachother, we exchanged hateful words, and there was a dust-up.

Having a nemesis is sweet.

Whip halfling face off!

Bump.

I know this is thread necromancy, but I believe this could help a bit in the moment we're having here. This is by no means, directed at anyone, nor did any specific situation warrant it.

WTF?

I just spent 20 minutes of my 45 minute break from work reading something 5 or so months old...

And no one in mIRC told me it was old when I was talking about it!

But yes, it's all good stuff. Kiaring made some good points.