C'mon guys. I know they aren't meant to be primary damage dealers or anything like that, but gimme a break.

It's like most of their coolest spells are completely crummy in comparison to the staples. Magic Weapon and PfE for example are obviously always going to get first pick of Scare and Grease. (Grease, of course, being completely and utterly broken - in EfU it doesn't knock down opponents... ever, because of what must be a Bioware bug involved in area of effect spells not firing their effects every round like they should). Sound Burst suffers from being lackluster where it could really shine. Like some sort of bastardized compromise between a fireball and colorspray - which actually sounds pretty bitchin' - it doesn't do anything half the time, and occupies a spell slot which is already in sore need for other things which will obviously be far better. (Invisibility, Ghostly Visage, and any of the stat-buffing spells, are a more popular choice, I'm sure. And for good reason.) I'm not proposing anything drastic, but some sort of improvement to it would be infinitely well-recieved, I'm sure. An extra +1 damage every one (or two) levels - or an extra round of stunning enemies who fail their will save (which is comparitively rare -it's level 2, and what self-respecting bard would reasonably ever take a Spell Focus in Evocation?

The other sorely upsetting spell of course has to be Wounding Whispers - which is an absolutely cool spell which suffers from some honestly terrible setbacks. It's an elemental shield spell. For bards. Very cool - until you take into account it's a third level spell - Bards can only get it at Level 7, and usually only have one spell per day at that level, short of having ridiculous Charisma scores or very hard to come by equipment. Not to mention that Bards tend to enjoy a decently high AC and absurdly low HP - the spell is deliciously flavorful but is - as a result of these issues, effectively useless to any type of bard character except the sort of build that puts itself in close-combat - and would instead favor other spells that are actually useful to them - Haste, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon - far more useful. A length improvement - or the ability to target creatures other than the Caster with it, would make this spell an actually reasonable one to take, rather than something to just be scoffed at, or sulked over, for what "could have been".

Yeah, I'm only suggesting this because I happen to be silly enough to have a bard character with both Sound Burst and Wounding Whispers (and also some other uselessly dumb crap, too) but it's something I've seen for a good long while and always made me sad.

It'd just be nice for bards to be able to branch out and fit more than the two archetypes that the vanilla NWN spell limitations impose on them. Sure they're meant to be support characters, but as it is, they're poorly suited for any other type of support than what's expected of the typical "here, have bard song, magic weapon, protection from evil, mage armor, possibly some stat buffs, keen edge, and haste" bards that are practically required. Anything else is extremely less effective (which is almost intolerable on this server -- and I think I can find a post where Howland freely admits that -- and therefore impractical for use!)

Naturally I expect this to be shot down utterly, by everybody who feels like touting the fact that Bards are pretty okay, already. I'm not saying they aren't. I am saying however that what should be one of the coolest classes in the D&D game system is not living up to its full potential because a skewed balance in spell power, usefulness, and variety makes the cool choices less useful.

Cheers.

100% in support. Bard only spells are quite broken.

I agree with the time in Wounding Whispers.

Don't take sucky spells?

Sound bursts duration sucks, the only reason anyone will use it is to stun a running person or stop a mess of low willed creatures from over-running you.

Having quested a little with this one bard Orison, from when he was relatively unknown at level 4 who knew how to play his class, to a complete powerhouse at level 10, I can say there were times when his spells were indispensable. We breezed through some early quests because he was the only one with magic weapon, a little later he made liberal use of ghostly visage while fighting at the front. We found not one but two rings of +1 level 4 bard spell, which when he reached level 9 or 10 were absolutely incredible with improved invisibility. In addition bards get legend lore earlier than everyone else, which is pretty much required for some things. He also had keen edge and a scythe which I saw one hit kill another PC. My guess is picking your bard spells is a lot like feats, there's a lot that don't do anything for you and some that are very helpful.

Bards are already incredibly excellent on EFU. On top of everything else, bard song + spells + medium BAB/HP, they are also privy to tons and tons of great ambient loot to help them out. I don't think we need to really change anything here.

Well, true, but.... Look at the spells mages pick: always the same. (MW, PfE, insulation, blur, invisibility, strength...) Clerics are just a little better because they can survive with fighting and healing skills.

Bottom line is all spellcasters tend to OOCly pick the most usefull spells in the EfU harsh environnement.

Bards are very, very, VERY powerful. Infact I would put them nearly, if not, at the top of the list for useful classes to have with you on a quest. Most of the reasons have been pointed out but really they can not only cast spells and have bardsong, but they have many many useful skills to pick from.

On a side note, sure mages pick those spells because they are extremely useful to have. Not all mages use them though, or -only- use them. Thats the beauty of being a wizard, you can pick your spells from a wide variety.

Every class has it's strengths and weakness it's up to the player to play them how they wish. If you choose to focus on the weak aspects for RP thats your choice but with some creative thinkging all those spells like 'sound burst' can be awesomely effective.

Not everyone picks the same spells, letsplayforfun. People that want to be as efficient as possible and do not pay attention to their character might only pick the same spells, but that does not mean we have not had some colorful mages in the past that refuse to prattle with filthy transmutations/conjurations/evocations/what-have-you.

wcsherry Not everyone picks the same spells, letsplayforfun. People that want to be as efficient as possible and do not pay attention to their character might only pick the same spells...

It doesn't sound like this is especially endorsed -- so the question is, Why do you want to punish the characters who do take less efficient spells? Why NOT encourage players who choose roleplay over questing power - and allow them to have both, without compromising their character's identities?

It's not an issue of bards being too powerful already. If a player wants their bard to be powerful, they'll take haste and keen edge anyway. But why NOT let Wounding Whispers be a feasible choice for the people who want to be true to their concept? (like me! ME ME ME ME ME! )

Add'l clarification: I'm not saying bards are underpowered. I am FULLY AWARE that they are extremely powerful. Stop going on about it. It's irrelevant. Making Wounding Whispers a spell actually worth taking won't make bards WICKED IMBAL. It wouldn't actually improve the class at all in any mechanically meaningful way.

Then why not buff the "underpowered" spells that almost every other casting class has to contend with, too? The other advantages of the bard class more than make up for a couple of poor spells.

core Then why not buff the "underpowered" spells that almost every other casting class has to contend with, too? The other advantages of the bard class more than make up for a couple of poor spells.

I'd whole-heartedly endorse it.

<3 increased diversity in viable spell choices.

I'm sorry guys but I've to agree with the DM team.

Bards are powerful, it's true they have bunch of useless spells, but having a bard in your party make things easy.

I play Perin Rainkill, a halfing, his songs can boost him and his party mates pretty well.

And I'm sorry but they are not meant to be fighters, knights or front line men, by definition they are the survivors, those that in the end lives to tell the tales.

And once again agreed, pretty much skill full chars.

If bards possible spells (in EFU you have to work hard to get into lvl 7) are bugged it's a completely different and another problem then.

I don't think this thread has anything to do with making a power class stronger. I like the idea of making the spells that aren't worth taking at all... at least worth considering.

I would not be as in favor of taking spells that suck and make them overwhelming. However I doubt a few minor changes to crappy spells would really break anything.

I' build gaming systems IRL, And if there is one thing I've learned over the years, its that the more things players want to be able to do, the more variety you'll get as they pick and choose. Things get dull quick when the strongest always look the same.

So go ahead and try out a few things. Just don't go and give someone a 1st level nuke. >_>

Wounding whispers is practically a mages death armor, lasting only one round per level and if your bard has decent ac, there is no reason to take this. The only other reason why you would want to take this for the 11 damage it deals out at lvl 7 when it actually works, is that you have high HP and low ac, and I ask you, "Why did you design a bard in which they were MEANT to get hit, and even then, at level 7 on?" And Wounding whispers doesn't even work when your opponent is using ranged weapons, completely nullifying why you would get it.

Yes, I am aware spells like sound burst, color spray, and even burning hands (Not joking) Have been used to sheer awesome effect ( I was on the back end of a Sound Burst one, Fig's last day :cry: ). But I won't object to make the more Viable, and actually putting them on the list of spells to consider.

All of these spells are good in the right hands.

The long list of those just doesn't include Kotenku's.

But, in all seriousness, the spells aren't underpowered. They're just very rarely useful, or useful only in specific situations, and that's what makes them wonderful, especially when you come to the situation in which they're useful.

I respectfully disagree with the last two posts. Having one situation in a million occur in which one particular spell might be more/as useful as the half-dozen generic bard spells that most people choose from does not make them not underpowered. It just makes them marginally less pathetic options.

Just dropped by to see how EfU is doing these days, noticing this post. Sitting here in the Computer-room because my college teached bailed on us because there was a 5% attendance, I figured Id give my stance on this... being....

Bards are definitely not underpowered in the way of combat. In fact, I'd argue they are amongst the strongest for their ability to use both Arcane scrolls/wands as well as Divine* items making them very low-cost henchmen if played with some wit.

Surely some spells are 'underpowered' - but if everyone would aim to have the best stats, the best spells and the best equipment, EfU would want to consider moving to the Arena. It's the diversity used by EfU's playerbase and the uncommon combination of spells and equipment which makes it a living world. Enhancing spells so that they become 'less useless' (although I can't think of any spell a Bard can cast to be useless) will only narrow the potential for people to make (mechanically!) interesting characters.

'Sides. EfU has had a hand full of incredibly strong Bards. And wounding whisper is freaking ~awesome~. *UMD

Again I feel inclined to draw attention to what I feel is the subject here. Bards -aren't- underpowered. We should be able to agree upon that. But the vast majority of bards played to be somewhat mechanically effective draw on a relatively limited repertoire of spells. I believe the matter is how to make some of the lesser-drawn upon spells more effective, so that players of the class will be more inclined to use certain spells outside of the narrow context in which they can potentially be useful.

Well, why is dificult understand that:

1. Efu is not a "I live alone in dark" story ? (And you will die if try.)

2. The classes in NWN are like "paper, rock and scissors" ? ( And dices matter too. )

3. Any stuff, spell, feat and skill "in game" is useful but not always ? (And why you will carry a 35.5 lbs rock around ?)

4. About 16 years and up to 1.69 revision, made a game mechanics and intelligence lesser bugged but not optimal. (And know about how AI works isn't exploit it, but use an internal conditional error is. That's a long "flame" theme.)

5. In about 16 years and petabytes at forums, the balance was not done, but is better then original. (And it will never be done or we are all only playing dices and not using brains)

6. Every DM team at every server have "flame" reasons about all w**** (why, when, which, what ...) and how improve the balance to. (And every team make mistakes and learn "in job")

7. Original spell's duration, effect, bonus and damage are balanced for use in NWN+SOU+HOU in single-player and for those npcs, areas and maps. ( And then a smith of 1667 hit dmg can be done.)

[]s tooh