*this is a discussion formed from a DM Q&A post*

Upon reading Beggar's description of what happened to the squirrel, I believe I can say that using summond ANIMALs to spring traps that result in the death of the animal (or even severe harm) seems to be a Chaotic Evil act.

Though I'm sure there is a rationale for why it may not be chaotic, if you lure a creature into suffering, that is, for sure, an evil act and all good aligned characters (especially paladins and any followers of Illmater) should not agree with this action unless they want to get hit with an alignment shift and/or spell failure.

In contrast, summons that summon non-animals (elementals, erynes (sp??), etc), I don't think have such a moral impact. For some reason, it just doesn't seem cruel to me to summon an Earth Elemental to death as it does to see a badger to death on that same fire trap.

Thoughts of the player base? DM's should there be an alignment shift against nature followers/paladins/Illmaterians who witness and do nothing about companions who use such tactics for trap springing?

I think the difference between feelings of an earth elemental versus badger is simply because in our experience we have never seen earth elementals.

The druids on EFU seem to be very upset about earth elementals powering ******** so I would think they would be upset about needless sacrifice of these elementals for trap springing.

So you think that the Svirfneblin will feel that way as far as Earth Elementals go?

The gods will still shake their fists at you!

(Postcount + 1000! RSI is setting in now... was it worth it... no.)

Well, I started to make this a long post, but I'm going to keep it short.

From what Beggar's saying, I suppose my Ilmateri cleric should cry when he sees the poor rats, starving to death in the sewers. Or maybe he should weep for the poor burdened, suffering, and enslaved donkeys that live on the surface. Come on, that's silly. And the animals we're discussing are planar beings, they will have no recollection of suffering, and their "suffering" on the material plane is the best preventative measure for REAL suffering when someone gets a giant spike driven through their leg.

I'm gonna be frank about this one, the notion that the gods give a damn about how you use summoned animals (putting aside their use as a spell, such as using them to injure innocents or whatever) seems absurd. MAYBE Lurue and Eldath would wonder why you didn't just throw a stick or heavy rock at the trap, but there's no way to do that now is there? Hmm... new spell- Summon Stick? Or, perhaps these two deities would be a little disturbed at the grotesque scene caused by the material plane "death" of the summoned creature, but they're far too wise to be disturbed at the fact that, all things considered, NOTHING HAPPENED to the summoned creature.

Rereading my post, it has a sort of hostile tone. I don't suppose it's the tone I meant to have, but other than being an interesting OOC thought I can't see any logical reasons why the gods would care about this, thus making it a moral issue. Even Beggar's humorous post concurs with this- at the end, he points out that everything he described doesn't actually happen. So why would the gods react as if it did?

The only question remaining that might justify this as a cruel act is whether or not PCs know what happens to extraplanar beings after they are summoned and killed. I don't see why they wouldn't know about what happened, since wizards can and do travel to other planes, they see what it's like on the other side, and they potentially come in contact with the gods themselves.

One last thing. The example animals being used are squirrels and unicorns. Nobody springs traps with these kinds of creatures! Everyone uses rats! The only deities who might care about the wretched little rats are Talona, Moander, and maybe Eldath 'cause he's a rediculous deity anyways.

You're still causing innocent animals a world of needless pain for profit or because you were too lazy to look for someone to deal with that particular trap, or walk around it, though! Seems pretty evil to me, causing pain for profit and not giving a damn about it or even give it a second of thought. Or at least just mean <_<.

I can see how nature deities and druids wouldn't like it!

Who the hell cares about squirrels?

They're vermin. Rats with bushy tails. I gotta say, Beggar's post only turned me more in favor of using them as trap disarmers.

There's no real issue here unless you're a druid, and even then a Malarite might not have a problem with it.

My understanding from PnP was that any animal summoned be it a rat etc. comes from another plane and when killed goes back to it's plane unharmed, therefore if it gets killed it wakes up in it's plane thinking boy that was a weird dream. I will look into it again though but as far as i am aware you do not kill the summon when it dies it goes back unharmed, the same goes for deamons and devils.

I always thought summoned creatures were not "real".

A companion is something different.

I'll wait for Mikhail research.

How is summoning an animal to use as a meat shield morally superior to summoning one to spring a trap?

If one is wrong, both are wrong.

Animal abuse.

Absurd. Summons aren't real alived or live beings.

They are like "flesh" illusions.

Exception for companions that in NWN, are live beings and stay in another "plane" waitnig be called.

[]s tooh

Personally, Summons are summons unless they are from this plane. Druids companions stay on -this- plane and therefore we all love them.

On a side note, I don't think Eldath gives a rats ass about rats, My eldath cleric has killed hundreds.

Madskillsmike You're still causing innocent animals a world of needless pain for profit or because you were too lazy to look for someone to deal with that particular trap, or walk around it, though! Seems pretty evil to me, causing pain for profit and not giving a damn about it or even give it a second of thought. Or at least just mean <_<.

I can see how nature deities and druids wouldn't like it!

That's the thing- the animals aren't ACTUALLY being harmed. Technically, they aren't even animals! As Tooh says, they're more like illusions or mirror images of their true beings as planar creatures. They come to no harm when they are summoned.

Really, why do people summon these creatures? To put them in HARM'S WAY. They summon a dire rat and say "Go kill the Elder Behemoth Spider!" Under the same logic that using them for tripping the traps, using summons in potentially "deadly" (though they can't really die) situations is just as morally wrong.

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About Druid companions

Druid companions aren't summoned, theoretically. In NWN they are "summoned", but that's because they didn't want to go through the effort of scripting the animals to spawn at some random safe spot on the map and then come charging in towards their master. Using animal companions would definately be a cruel thing to do.

This is not to be mistaken with the spell Summon Monster, which all caster classes have. It is this spell and the monsters that appear because of it that is (or was) what we were discussing.

If summons aren't real, then explain to me how in HotU, The Valsharess summoned Mephistopheles who is very real by the fact that he sends you to Cania and then destroys half of the surface.

Summons have to be real in some form. Plus also, NWN doesn't do the unsummoning animation when a summon dies - you see it lying dead!

Because the way she summoned him was not through a Summon Monster spell. Not to mention the campaign is attrocious and should not be taken as a base for DnD rules.

There's... a tiny difference between the Summon Monster spell and actually summoning a demon, mister. A tiny, tiny, but significant difference. I'd venture summoning a real demon like that is a huge ritual that takes days to prepare, tons of gold in items, lots of study, yadda yadda. It's not the same as reading a scroll of Summon Monster VI!

To all of my knowledge of magic on Faerun summoning something from another plane brings it to you with full conciousness of what is happening. Summoning is basically removing the summoned being from its plane. Now it cannot be truely wounded or killed, but it knows everything that happened and remembers it on its trip back to whatever plane. To summon the same creature again it will have to regain its energy (which is being sapped while its on the Material Plane). There are many examples for many different planes. Demons being summoned recall everything, animals and beings from the Astral Plane remember everything, shadows from the plane of shadows.

But I see nothing evil in this because its not truely harming the animal. But it also depends on how your character looks at things. To some causing a rat pain to save your party from being impaled by spikes or burned by flame traps is an evil thing, but to others its all for the greater good!

p00d33m I always thought summoned creatures were not "real".

A companion is something different.

I'll wait for Mikhail research.

Thanks for the support so here is what i have found out from several source books Mainly the Players Handbook and the Rules Compendium.

The summon monster spells (summon undead, summon elementals etc.) Come under the conjuration school. Now there are several subcategories under this the two most important and confused would be Calling and Summoning.

The summon monster spells are summoning and dependent on the type of creature what kind of act it is (so summoning a chaotic evil creature is both chaotic and evil, summoning lawful good is both lawful and a good act etc.). When you cast it it brings the creature or object to a place you designate , when the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object isn't sent back unless the spells description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it's killed or if it's hit points drop to 0 or lower. It isn't really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. Summoned creatures can't use any summoning abilities of their own nor can they use anything that will sacrifice XP if the creature casts a spell when the summon spell ends any spell it has cast goes with it.

Calling spells are different and are not related to any summon monster spell a calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. It grants a one time ability for it to return to it's plane of origin, although the spell might limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures that are called actually die when they are killed - they don't disappear and reform as do those brought by a summoning spell. The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can not be dispelled.

On reading the spell description for any summoning spell it states that the creature summoned fights your enemies and can be directed by you to perform any task that it's capable of performing and attacking specific enemies etc.

Now this creates an interesting argument if i summon a lawful good creature i do a lawful good act if i use it to disarm a trap (some people would argue that is chaotic and evil) i have just gained law and good points and lost them for what i did they cancel each other out. Also since the creature can not be killed is it evil to use it in this way, certainly the creatures don't object and at the higher levels some of the ones you summon are intelligent and capable of objection (the spell specifies though they obey your commands so technically you can be forcing them to do something they don't what to do and they can't object. Of course if you follow this argument it goes against the very spells nature as your enslaving it and as such it's an evil act... oh look i have gone cross-eyed).

Also as has been mentioned if you summon the creature your are going to put it into harms way if it fights for you is this less evil than summoning it to set of a trap and will the god be more or less annoyed (to be honest if it's going to be annoyed for one purpose it will be annoyed for both that then raises the question of why they have the ability to summon in the first place).

In any system where you have multiple people working on multiple projects you will find contradictions so i say this comes down to interpretation, personally as a DM in Pen and Paper i would take a step back and say okay this is a game if apply to much logic i am going to get a very sore head so in this situation i would say that the gods probably won't be happy but do not care enough to do anything about it.

On a side note one of my characters has been trying to get lawful good points i am taking mage levels and summoning Lawful Good creatures every five minutes and await my alignment shift :P

Is it more evil to summon an animal to spring a trap or talk a 6-int half orc barbarian into stepping on it?

Underbard Is it more evil to summon an animal to spring a trap or talk a 6-int half orc barbarian into stepping on it?

I think the question is: what is clever ? Does he has nice items? 8)

So I think Mikhail ended the discussion.

Summoned creatures aren't "real" nor get harmed.

The gods, or the arcane powers that you have, offer you the possibility of a clever and easy way out from any situation you might found.

Good gods, why am I playing a FIGHTER!!!???

I want to see clerics of Tr0m summon devils on deadly acid traps.

Oh, and I want to see a CG conjurer summon imps, and force them to give food to poor starving orphan children.

That's against to the character alignment, not to the summon itself.

As Mik's research.

Nevertheless demons and imps can "think" for themselves they can argue about it or even fight you back for forcing them to do something is against their alignment and/or nature.

A rat is a rat. A summoned rat it isn't even a real rat.

But I'm against the idea of Rangers/Druids taming wild animals and release them over traps, differently from summoned creatures.

To illustrate:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0138.html

I'm gonna be frank about this one, the notion that the gods give a damn about how you use summoned animals (putting aside their use as a spell, such as using them to injure innocents or whatever) seems absurd.

Garem, I think your point is scewed. The nature Gods would indeed care about how you use their animals. A LG deva summoned to help a LG cleric would step on that Deadly Electric trap for you, because as a boon to Her God she came to aid you, but it hurts her no less when she gets zapped. Harm on the material plane is no less harm on another, even though the summons goes back to "normal" after it is severely injured/killed on the material plane. The fact that the end result is changed does has no effect on whether you -used- that creature just to take damage. Fighting along side it like a team mate in a battle is a completely different thing. Remember, that some of the things that are summonable are highly intelligent beings. Also remember, that use of your spells and summons needs to adhere to both your deities dogma and your alignment. If it doesn't, shifts and or spell failure will occur--because why would a God give you spells if you aren't being a good example.

There are plenty of summoning themes which are more appropriate for "trap springing". Again these guidlines apply ot priests/druids and rangers of nature Gods, or Gods who do indeed care for the life you are summoning from their plane of existence. Malar, if you read the dogma fully, does care for animal life. (ie, don't hunt the pregnant / young / females needed for breeding and to propgate the species.)

And tooh, summons are not illusions, they are actual creatures from other planes of existance. The spell gives them a short term workers visa, they work for a bit, and then they go home.

In the end it's the PCs actions that matter, in relation to the summons. If a PC were to summon an animal, jus to dismember it and have fun in a pool of blood until it went back to it's home at the end of the spell, that PC would still have commited a horrible act. He -did- dismember that animal and bathe in it's blood. The act itself is what the CE alignment shift will come from in that particular instance.

But Beggar, if I may, Mik's research over game manuals shows the opposite. They are "unreal" at least to the character plane.

Although I MUST agree that in the end it's all resumed by RPing the situation, that ends all this discussion.

And off course clerics/druids/rangers (good ones) wouldn't sent their companions nor the animals they can summon over a deadly trap to make their way out, at least not with out a good RP.

It really doesn't show the opposite at all. I'm not contradicting a statement that they are not material plane creatures. They are, however, -creatures-. The fact that they are not from your suburb doens't mean you get free liscence to do whatever you want to them and suffer no moral consequence.

They live, and can be killed on their own plane of existance. They get hurt injured and say things like "yelp" and "holy crap that hurt" when they get hit by a sword or other injurious thingie while on work visa to the material plane. They are very real creatures, just not of the material plane. I will also add, that the Gods do not reside on teh material plane. The summons that come from a deity come from their plane of existance, and are considered "on loan", or "servant like" creatures. What you do with them is in fact subject to scrutiny.

Understand too that this is not official EfU policy yet, and only representative of my opinion on the matter. This is how I always have run it in my campains.

The Beggar The nature Gods would indeed care about how you use their animals. A LG deva summoned to help a LG cleric would step on that Deadly Electric trap for you, because as a boon to Her God she came to aid you, but it hurts her no less when she gets zapped. Harm on the material plane is no less harm on another, even though the summons goes back to "normal" after it is severely injured/killed on the material plane. The fact that the end result is changed does has no effect on whether you -used- that creature just to take damage. Fighting along side it like a team mate in a battle is a completely different thing.

Why is that different though if the animal fights beside you it's at risk of as much harm as stepping on a trap it suffers pain and can be harmed until it returns to it's original plane surely if it suffers in one case and is deemed to be wrong then summoning any animal and putting them in harms way would be just as bad. So the question then comes why do they have access to spells that allow them to summon any animals they shouldn't unless it's to mop floors or deal with dreary tasks and there are plenty of spells that take care of that.

Also this creates major problems for the server as to play a druid or ranger your going to have to take ranks in Disable Device or make sure that you take a rogue with you on every single quest which isn't always possible. And what happens if the rogue cannot disable the trap?

The summons from reading the spell description can not argue against what you tell them to do even in the case of Highly Intelligent so either they are willing to step on the trap to stop you getting hurt or are forced to do it against their will which would mean the spell would have the Evil descriptor as you are forcing them into a form of slavery (and indeed summon monster doesn't have the evil descriptor unless you summon an evil animal if you summon a good animal it gets the good descriptor) if the creature willingly steps on the trap knowing it's going to be hurt in doing so does that make the act more noble in the eyes of the gods or less is it an abuse or is it not.

Also as gods of Nature this creates an even greater problem as would the nature god not be upset if you suffered by stepping on trap or having one of you fellow party memebers do it after all Humans, elves, dwarfs are all still animals under the nature dietys eyes as such this creates a flaw in my eyes at least.

I think the main question to answer are:

Is the summon monster/natures ally spell a type of slavery and if so why is it not automatically an evil spell?(and if this is the case why is summoning a lawful good creature a lawful good act etc. instead of it just being evil all round?)

If all of them perform the actions willingly and it's not slavery, Why is it wrong to have them hurt stepping on a trap and yet okay to have them hurt maimed or dismembered while fighting alongside you?

If i worship a nature deity and one of my other adventurers wishes to step on the trap knowing full well of the possibility of it hurting/killing him do i have to stop him even if this means beating him into unconsciousness and therefore causing harm as my deity would not wish him to come to harm in the first place?

The problem is this all comes down to interpretation like i said before The beggar as a DM will see things one way i myself as a DM in many fauren games look at it another. i think in the end this is going to have to be debated by the dm team and player base until a common agreement has been made other wise it's just going to go back and forward.

Evil people do it (They are evil)

Good people don't. (Goodey goods are what they are)

Neutral people throw themselves on the trap. (They have no reason to live anyways)

We're all happy. (Until Malar shows up)

It's the same as calling one of your mates over to help fight beside you and calling one of your mates over to jump onto a trap and be brutally slaughtered.

1. Summoning creatures who feel pain, simply to have them sacrafice themselves on a trap, all to get the sexy loot on the other side, is pretty sick.

2. There is no similarity between summoning them simply to rid yourself of a pesky trap, and summoning them because you value their assistance in battle.

3. I can't see how this is hard to understand, in fairness, these creatures may be summoned, and never sustain lasting physical effects as a result of injury, but they still feel bleed when you stab them, and still feel pain when you hurt them.

SkillFocusPWN nails it.

Halfbrood nails it.

Said very simply gentlemen, well put and very concise.

Also this creates major problems for the server as to play a druid or ranger your going to have to take ranks in Disable Device or make sure that you take a rogue with you on every single quest which isn't always possible. And what happens if the rogue cannot disable the trap?

Take a rogue. Or find some other way of getting around the trap. If your actions IG do not jive with your alignment, there will be shifts. If you are recieving divine spells and use them outside the dogmatic views of your deity, there will be spellfailure. The arguement above is one that in my opinions sounds like "I need my summons as one of those classes because wihtout it, I may miss out on sweet loot." Absolutely you may miss out on sweet loot. You do not have to get every piece of sweet loot. There are no scripted quests which absolutely force you to get nailed by traps to complete the quest. When we as DMs lay down traps, there will always be a way around them if you see them.

A summoned being is considered an ally, what you do with that ally will affect your RP and your character especially those who have to adhere to a divine dogma.

If you are a sadistic mage who enjoys watching things take damage so you gan get the ruby on the deadly electric trap on the floor, then summon away. If you are a LG cleric and summon that Diva to get smoked so your greed can be satisfied, you are taking a big alignment hit. That's RP. That's the way you set up your character, so you should play it. It boils down to RP. Just do it.

There are no scripted quests which absolutely force you to get nailed by traps to complete the quest. When we as DMs lay down traps, there will always be a way around them if you see them.

@ The: There is always a way around traps on scripted quests, I beg to differ.

The duergar fort quest requires you to set off a trap in order to get into their mines.

The sewer town defense quest requires you to go over that nasty confusion trap to get into the boss's area.

Then we'll look into those trap placements

The traps in the red skull temple to complete the quest they block the entire corridor i know as i did it not long after a reset as such to go through if you don't have ranks in disable device you have to set them off to get by.

You also didn't answer my questions:

I think the main question to answer are:

Is the summon monster/natures ally spell a type of slavery and if so why is it not automatically an evil spell?(and if this is the case why is summoning a lawful good creature a lawful good act etc. instead of it just being evil all round?)

If all of them perform the actions willingly and it's not slavery, Why is it wrong to have them hurt stepping on a trap and yet okay to have them hurt maimed or dismembered while fighting alongside you?

If i worship a nature deity and one of my other adventurers wishes to step on the trap knowing full well of the possibility of it hurting/killing him do i have to stop him even if this means beating him into unconsciousness and therefore causing harm as my deity would not wish him to come to harm in the first place?

((I really don't think what has previously been said requires expounding but for Mikhail, I'll try to explain these concepts in a slightly different manner))

Mikhail The Heretic Is the summon monster/natures ally spell a type of slavery and if so why is it not automatically an evil spell?(and if this is the case why is summoning a lawful good creature a lawful good act etc. instead of it just being evil all round?)

No, neither Summon Monster nor Summon Natures Ally is inherently any form of slavery. Thusly, it is not automatically evil and thereby can still be good (or maybe a respectable neutral). Think of it this way, due to the nature of the spell- The summons show up when you appeal to them (by casting the spell) and generally want to help you, by their choice or the deity that rules over which ever plane is being accessed. These summons came here to help you accomplish something. There is no danger of them being killed, nor recalling any of the damage felt, but once they show up, they must do what you tell them to. However, your alignment is not based on what they remember, its based on how you act. Knowing full well that you will be sending this summon to an unnecessary death for the purpose of greed and loot and xp is just mean. MEAN. Watching that little critter that came here to help you- walk forward and get stabbed to death via a trap is cruel. You know its going to suffer like that, you planned for it! Thats why you may suffer alignment changes. Animal cruelty... or in fact any acts of cruelty is inherently and obviously evil.

Simply: Summons are tools that think, feel and exist. You as the caster can use them for any purpose. If you use them to survive then it is neither good nor evil. If you use them to save someone or to help save something their "realm" represents then its likely good. If you use them to get mangled on a trap right as they start to enter the realm... cruel (evil).

Just respect your summons.

Mikhail The Heretic If all of them perform the actions willingly and it's not slavery, Why is it wrong to have them hurt stepping on a trap and yet okay to have them hurt maimed or dismembered while fighting alongside you?

If you are Evil, there is no difference. If you are good- then there is a massive difference between animal cruelty for personal greed, and calling on the help of a summon in order to survive a combat.

Example-ish: If you had a friend that was in dire need of help, would you risk fighting for them? Most likely, Getting hurt helping them is a hurt your willing to take. Conversely, If you had a friend that wanted you to rob a bank for them while they watched TV, you likely would look at them like they were nuts. One of those has your friend respecting you in return and understanding that this is no trivial thing they are asking... and the other? Well. You likely wont be answering their number again.

A summon cannot say no. You however can decide how you are going to treat it.

Mikhail The Heretic If i worship a nature deity and one of my other adventurers wishes to step on the trap knowing full well of the possibility of it hurting/killing him do i have to stop him even if this means beating him into unconsciousness and therefore causing harm as my deity would not wish him to come to harm in the first place?

You do not have to stop him. If he is your friend you prolly should find some other course of action, pain isn't any fun. Not to witness nor to experience. How you treat summons that your deity send for your aid is entirely seperate from this example. You should not have to beat a player down to keep them from hurting themselves... just grab them and hold on tight- they shouldn't IC'ly want to hurt themselves that badly anyway. mechanically if they are going to, there isn't anything you can do to stop them... thankfully we're on an Rp server and these things can generally work themselves out IG.

Again, Just respect your summons.

Ebok A summon cannot say no. You however can decide how you are going to treat it.

If it can't say no and has to do your bidding it is a slave if that is the case in my eyes and opinion the spell should have the evil descriptor (and therefore not able to summon good creatures) as your forcing it and it has no choice.

As for the friend, if summoning a monster and having it step on the trap is frowned upon i feel the druid Nature worhsipper would have to interfere and stop him but if this breaks out into violence you have just caused what you tried to stop. Physical suffering is caused by you trying to stop physical suffering.

As i said earlier this is going to have to be resolved as a whole by the dm team and player base with some kind of final decision being made.

Summoning is not evil. Nor is it inherently slavery.

Sorry you are having issues finding out how to come to terms with that.

Guys,

Let's end this. Please!

Just RP the TRAP-SUMMON situation.

Just do it according to your class, deity and alignment.

If get a summoned creature killed will save the chaotic evil rogue buttocks from been pierced by nasty spikes, or if the neutral good druid realizes that his life and his party mates relies on the poor rat death's (real, unreal, from another plane or not) to make their way out from where they are be it.

Just RP it.

:P

I think it's about time we bury this thread and move on