There seems to be a new trend of making new dungeons with combat in transitions. I am thinking Red Skulls, the new Clowns add on and Duergar Mine.

I have to say I think this is not a good thing.

It is just so easy for people to be killed due to game bug mechanics. The tanks walk in, panic walk out, and the mage who just walked though is dead before the screen loads or before that can restitute the camera to see their character. Or someone walks in invisible and then has an auto attack when they transition, breaking it.

In the Duergur quest, for example, we had about twenty odd dwarfs cramming a transition. This is impossible to deal with, because once you walk in, you cannot even retreat, as you are pushed behind the transition "wall" and they block forward progress. The transition is just an open gate, not even a ladder. It breaks suspension of disbelief, because for real you would just say, "Oh look, a room full of duergar, lets fight them in the doorway".

I suggest that the server has a policy of mobs away from transitions. It makes the server hard and random in a bad way, not a good way. No one likes to die without a fighting chance, and the transiton breaks the suspension of disbelief, since it is purely a game mechanic, not an ingame thing. Even a ladder is pretty painful, because if the mage was climbing down after the tank, he would know to go back up, because the tank is on the same ladder.

The duergar quest has problems with this, many many problems. At times I've caught them breaking invisibility as if they had true seeing.

I agree.

Yep Im with Scrappa here. Its not fun to be jumped right after you exits a transition.

Yep this happened to Mitsy on the day it was changed right as she hit nine, that was quite nasty. Transition get jammed in the door, die horribly. I told sherry those duergar were too close to the transitions too : /

I've done all of them as a PC and never had a problem. I get the feeling this is more an issue of people being outside their comfort zone, and that not knowing exactly where the monsters are going to be scares people into panics which cause death. These things -aren't- on the transition unless someone freaks out and drags them all back there into your face. And...

Well.

Adventuring is scary.

Sometimes you die.

I really have no intention of changing the Clowns one at all, ever. That's definitely intended to be crazy, hard, and full of bombardment. Red Skull quest was made so that the ghosts were so slow that this shouldn't even really be a problem. Duergar I haven't looked at, so maybe I'll move a few spawns. In the meantime, stop being so sissy everyone, and crush monsters when you go past a transition.

Thanks for the constructive criticism.

I have observed the duergar quest many times, and never noticed monsters spawning ON the transition, which leads me to believe that it's possible due to people bringing them there.

It may seem like they are on the transition in heavy lag, as sometimes things on PC end are slowed down (like loading, getting visuals on PCs, etc).

I'll make a point of closely observing the spawn points on future instances of this quest, though.

My suggestion for the duergar transitions is have the transition, and a door before you get to the spawns so that they don't see you and bolt over to the transition and potentially making you get stuck.

They aren't actually on the transition, but they are close enough to it that by the time most people load in, they are already swarmed by with no way to transition back, or move.

At least that was my experience both times I did it.

I agree that player actions often cause that transition problem, but it's NOT always the case.

You can't get more than one person through a transition because it only fires once per person and if you get multiple people through you end up behind the next area's transition and when you try to walk forward you end up transitioning OUT of the area you are trying to help with.

Also yes, people will run in, get pushed back by a mob (because their other teammates haven't arrived yet through the transition), and are forced to retreat. When their teammates do finally show up, the monsters are there and kill them before the screen loads.

Then there is the issue of being attacked behind a transition, the auto attack/de-invis issue, and god forbid if you DIE behind a transition - you can't get to your pack!

Seriously, it's a known fact that transition scripts don't always fire under normal conditions, and god forbid if lag occurs, then they're nearly entirely useless (goblin fortress quest ladders anyone??).

The red skull quest also suffers from the additional problem that the areas you transition into are incredibly small also. So if a group of 6 people did this quest, you'd get everyone jammed up at every point.

While I agree that the Red Skull quest is likely more realistic by having all the layers and such, mechanically it doesn't always work.

I'm not really sure what to suggest as a fix right at this moment, as I am torn between keeping the realism of the maps and terrain for the quest or changing them because of mechanics issues with transitions.

I'm just pointing out a few issues that I've encountered over my playing time.

It doesn't really matter if it's the PCs fault, the point is that if there are a bunch of Duergar storming you, you wouldn't get stuck in the little bit behind the door where you can't click on it to flee.

It's completely immersion breaking that you're actually stuck in an open doorway that you can easily retreat through, but can't due to mechanics.

It's also immersion breaking that the NPCs don't follow you!

That's mainly why I agree with scrappayeti on having few if any transitions inside a QA. The NPCs don't follow you, and you can't go through a door you otherwise would be able to.

The alternative to transitions would be massive areas laid out geographically correct. Obviously, this isn't going to happen (and in some cases it isn't even possible anyway -- the only way to represent several levels is through transitioning).

The alternative to transitions would be massive areas laid out geographically correct. Obviously, this isn't going to happen (and in some cases it isn't even possible anyway -- the only way to represent several levels is through transitioning).

I am not saying there should never be transitions. Nor am I against overwhelming odds. Nor do I object to player deaths. Its just the three should not be in the same place at the same time.

The classic fights in Sewerchosen and Gnolls are good examples of excellent dungeon design. There is a transition, then a corridor with a corner for the players to set up in, then a large area filled with baddies. Yes, if the players are determined to run, they can fill up a transition, but it becomes the exception not the rule.

I realised after I typed the origonal message that Sherry made all the quests I mentioned. This was not meant to be an attack on you Sherry, sorry dude!

I tend to think that its more of a problem with PC's bringing the spawns to transition but if the duergar one is close enough to attract on load, perhaps moving them back a little would be good. Everything is seems kosher.

Oh, game tip: Kill the spawns, no more problems. :wink:

Well, there's the kobold quest where you need to retrieve a rat.

Although not a 'transition' as in you have a loading time, but a transition where you are actually transported elsewhere on the map, only to find out kobolds directly ambushing you was a bit, unexpected.

I say no transitions at all. Make the server one enormous area with every "Area" in it.

I agree with the people who said the duergar transition should be tweaked.

I was attacked by some of them immediatley on loading in, and was the first one to load; two or three seconds later was completely surrounded by over ten of them, and other party members transitioning in were killed almost instantly.

A bit more space so the PCs could see them coming and the party had time to fully transition would be a good thing.

I was with kaelle on that quest today and it cost 3 of our team of 7 to die because they got pushed BEHIND the transition and had no way of moving forward to get out.

Additionally, there is a cleric in there, who by defualt, casts Hammer of the Gods so not only are you stunned, but you're also trapped behind the transition and surrounded.

I understand that yes this is a duergar fort, but, there was no way our group could have possibly defeated all of those, let alone prevent them from getting us after transition.

There should be at least a delay on when the dwarves move on you....say 15 seconds? To allow us to properly load our screens. If they are openly attacked, however, then fine they all can move on the attackers position, but this gives us time to react and at least not get attacked while we're still loading the flippin' area.

Needless to say the players who died, were very unhappy.

Is anyone ever happy when they die? I'm know I'm usually grouchy, regardless of how or why it happened.

When you get pushed behind a transition and you think you have no way out, it is because you need to learn a little NWN 101. You will need to navigate your cursor onto the transition (which can be difficult.) Honestly this isn't even an issue unless everyone freaks out, panics, and flees.

Staring Death Although not a 'transition' as in you have a loading time, but a transition where you are actually transported elsewhere on the map, only to find out kobolds directly ambushing you was a bit, unexpected.

No, this is wrong. It takes you up a flight of stairs, into a room where kobolds have set up an ambush. So the complaint here seems to be the ambush is actually that, an ambush! Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh you guys know how to make a builder go caaarazay.

Edit:

Duergar quest mods are inbound, whenever I get back to my comp.

I routinely purposely get myself killed. It keeps people from thinking all those other times I died were on accident.