Ok, that was a joke topic to get your attention.

This suggestion is in the same line with my UMD suggestion, on rogues.

You don't see a lot of pure rogues anymore, and with good reason. I was thinking....maybe the DM team could do something to rogues like was done to rangers/barbarians. Something to discourage massive multi-classing rogues.

Like, level four rogue, weapon finesse for free.

I don't really know what kind of stuff it would be, but something to give the pure rogue more options in feats would be ideal, but more flavorful things would be just as wonderful!

Maybe something similar to Trackless Step for rangers... like "Urban Step" at level 7, where they get a +4 bonus to hide and move silently in crowded/city areas

The rogue class is just fine and dandy if you know to play it right >.>

It's not that the rogue class is underpowered. It's that you can get all the benefits of being a rogue, with 1-3 levels in it, and then be on your merry way back to being whatever other class you want.

There's not -much- incentive to stick with a straight rogue. Just look at all the powerhouse characters of the past few months. You'll find a lot of them had 1-2 levels of rogue, and likely a high UMD.

Mutliclassing is a choice either of rp or powerbuild or both.

People have fun with one or the other or both.

I approve of the "Urban Step" suggestion. Something like this for higher lvl rogues!

I find pure rogue is fine as it is.

Mort I find pure rogue is fine as it is.

I don't know if we're looking for a mechanical solution, but I know I wouldn't personally mind seeing more pure classes.

Multi-classes are a pretty massive part of DnD 3.0! I am fine with people multi-classing, and I really get a kick out of unusual pairings (such as the Druid/Bard I once saw...).

Rogues are generally fine pure-classed, and have several advantages over the Fighter/Rogue and other common combos.

Blatant power classing is generally not alright, however!

If a 4d6 sneak attack isn't enough incentive to play a pure rogue, nothing is.

PlayerCharacter If a 4d6 sneak attack isn't enough incentive to play a pure rogue, nothing is.

Exactly my point :!:

But I do in some chars take one or maybe three lvl of rogue, but not for just UDM you are forgetting Disarm Trap, etc ...

People should stop thinking about mechanics and start to compose your characters giving reasons for a pure class or multi-classing.

There is the incentive to staying pure rogue already, It's called crippling strike, sure it's at level 10, but if you get a pure rogue to level 10 and take that feat, you will become insane.

Pure rogues can kick ass. You just need to spend money on wands and potions. Also rogues have alot of skills rogues Pwn.

You don't see a lot of pure rogues anymore, and with good reason

I see a lot of pure rogues, or rogue heavy builds. The nature of any environment is that it will select for those builds that are able to survive, but honestly pure rogues are very, very capable in the underdark. No need to boost them at all.

Dr Dragon Pure rogues can kick ass. You just need to spend money on wands and potions. Also rogues have alot of skills rogues Pwn.

Dr. D's got the dealio on this shizzat, sir. He's quite correct-o-mundo, dude.

Well, for one thing, rogues aren't meant to be powerhouses in combat. That's what fighters are for. Rogues' skills lie elsewhere.

I think it's possible you don't see many pure rogues because there isn't a whole lot of necessity for them. Many of the quests feature undead or constructs, two things a rogue's major combat advantage doesn't affect. Sure there are traps on some quests but most are easily spotted and avoided by even a PC with 1 or 2 ranks in search. I don't know if I've ever seen a door with a pickable lock in EFU, or a chest for that matter.

RPing a rogue can be fun and being able to get around without being seen, and thus see and hear things you're not meant to, can lead to some great plot opportunities. I've thought about trying to start a thieves guild before but the trouble is, without DM help, there really isn't much to heist.

So maybe it isn't mechanics changes that are needed but more content that utilizes the skills rogues already have.

Agreed

I know there is a quest designed for rogues -

But you can do it only once.

More rogue quests please.

I wasn't really suggesting they be made more combat badassery.

Simply a way to give pure rogues more flaire, style, and options than someone who cross-classed enough to get the DC's they need.

There are many quests already where you would be hard pressed to look useful as a pure rogue..clowns for example.

For example, the changes made to rangers did not make them combat badasses, but gave them a niche and a feel that made them FEEL like badasses. And that's all that matters really. I just felt with my pure rogue, that I don't really play much anymore, rogues didn't have much of a place in the game to feel badass.

As was posted already, you have to look high and low to even find a door that doesn't require a 'specific key', which IMO is pretty lame.

I think I've thrown enough oil on the fire, since it's pretty obvious my opinion on them seem to be in the minority, carry on.

You could give pure rogues some kind of bonus like barbarians have, like +1 to some rogue skills at level 7 or 8 rogue. Or a 1/day rogues cunning item that they start with or can find that says only pure rogues.

I think rogues are good as is, and when you think about it, being a tacked-on class makes sense for the flavor of rogues. They are supposed to be adaptable and come in any form, it makes sense that they would multiclass. I don't think rogue is anyone's idea of a permanent occupation. Even master thieves who make their sole living off their dirty work would be likely to eventually retire and take up some hobby that doesn't necessarily relate to their previous lifestyle.

I do see a lot of rogue/fighters on the server, but again this makes sense. In this setting in particular, it's easy to imagine Lower breeding plenty of thug-type characters who fight dirty and are skilled at all the less savory activities cities have to offer.

For RP purposes, I have to admit I really like rogues because you can mold their skillset to fit basically any occupation you would want to have. Explaining off the sneak attack ability is often the hardest part, but you don't even have to do that. Since the extra damage is random, you can pass it off as just being naturally a good aim and sometimes getting lucky.

I don't think there's any dire need to change the current role of the class on the server.

The classes are unbalanced anyway. A class in itself isn't too powerful or too weak: this depends on each situation (quest, pvp, surprised or prepared).

I do wonder about clerics though: fighting, healing, casting, turning, brewing, crafting.

New show starts next week on G4 channel,

Pimp my Class

"First off, let's get something straight. It's Rogue..." Neverwinter Nights Rogue Character Guide, By Ross Glenn.

Let us known about the fundamental "mechanics" of NWN(1) engine:

1) All classes are weak, like in game of "rock, paper and scissors".

2) There is NO balance, and will never have.

3) The ambient content does all context.

In EFU, what make the winners or the survivors is "Time, Tatic, and Team".

About items, I see common, specifc and personal, +1/+2/+3 class skills (perform, taunt, open lock, ...), +1/+2 AC or AB, rare "1 use per day" (summon, spell, ...), rare "feat bonus" (dodge, haste, ...) and some "DooMs" gift item (but I never see one).

Maybe a "grenade like" with blind/deaf area effect can help rogues to survive;

Maybe more traps/chests with "the better drop" will help to make rogues more usefull;

But who I must kill to get a bow "AK-47", with seek laser guided +5/ arrows and enhanced 2-19/x4 full grip? How I apply for it ?

[]s tooh

I would just be happy with less locked doors that are completely immune to open locks.

When I'm playing my uber super secret rogue, who likes to go where he's not wanted.....it gets tiring seeing every locked door worth getting past in the city, being key-specific. It's not very realistic, and personally, I think it detracts a lot from stealthy sleuth type characters. I would just be happy with some absurd DC, that, while very very difficult, would be POSSIBLE with the right tools, and character.

In PNP rogues are the only ones that can disable magical traps, and the only ones that can disable magically locked doors (Erm, well I think, I might be wrong on that).

Every time you make another key-specific door, a rogue dies.

Just get your sneaky rogue to go and steal a key, then?

Madskillsmike Just get your sneaky rogue to go and steal a key, then?

So...what was the point of taking 10+ points in open locks again?

I guess I'll just be a half-orc fighter and mug people for keys and be just as stealthy at breaking into places!

Vlaid I would just be happy with less locked doors that are completely immune to open locks.

Put a DC 40 or 45 on every non-plot lock in Sanctuary. Nobody is going to get past that without tools and items.

Madskillsmike Just get your sneaky rogue to go and steal a key, then?

I don't think the DMs are interested in overseeing every burglary attempt every rogue wants to make. But if I just had to hazard a guess, I'd bet that the DMs would let you into a locked area if you had a good reason to be there and you made all your rolls.

I'd bet that the DMs would let you into a locked area if you had a good reason to

If that's the case, that's news to me and I will put my complaints on the key-specific locks to bed.

Yup if you want to sneak a look at a faction area get a dm so the NPC's get a chance to react to you sneaking around in there if they spot or here you.

Or just more locked chests or doors for optional ways/short cuts in QA's, with a DC high enough so that not every crappy rogue multiclass or even someone with like 2 ranks cross-class in open lock + 2 for dex bonus can beat it.

While I agree that rogues are already incredibly useful because of dealing a good amount of the party's damage done in total with their sneak attacks, most people simply seem to fail to see that and dismiss me as "useless" and just send me away. I had that quite a few times so far on my pure rogue character(s; but on those who are only 3 feet tall especially).

Sure, it's their loss, but eventually mine as well.

There are three quests i can think of where a rogue has optional trapped and locked boxes to open

There are five i can think of where traps make having a rogue very desirable to have along

There are two locales I can think of where pickable doors abound

IC, I will take one along anytime in case traps were laid.

Yup if you want to sneak a look at a faction area get a dm so the NPC's get a chance to react to you sneaking around in there if they spot or here you.

Absolutely. I have done this more than a few times for people in the past and continue to do this for people. Do not get constrained by "I don't have the key, therefore I can't do anything". We as DMs have said on numerous occasions that players with interesting ideas or a desire to do something "outside" the NWN mechanics box can come to us. This is still in effect.

The point being most locks and traps can be disarmed by a simple rogue muti-class, is what Linelle was saying. Two or three levels of rogue is often enough to reep the rewards of the quests. I agree maybe having some harder stuff to disarm or pick could give a bonus to pure rogues on quests.