Heres a system I made up yesterday to use the normal game and spells to SIMULATE (rp-wise) a character that is psionic. I'm sure many will argue a lot with my placement of various spells.

Basically I'm using "sorceror" or "bard" as the psionic class, the spells of those classes refer directly to psionic abilities, and although you'll still be a "bard" or "sorceror" you can use in-game reasons to explain your abilities in a psionic way.

Anyway hope it helps for anyone wishing to make a psuedo-psionicist.

Here are some minor substitutional rules for making a psionic using character in nwn1, it's approximated by using a sorceror or bard. For some it will just be another way to PLAY a sorceror. (Bards are the psychometabolists that can heal themselves and others, singing can be seen as a telepathic morale boost)

Most are PURE sorceror or bard but some will be multiclass Sorceror/X ,Bard/X... and still others Bard/sorceror (usually psychometabolists)

Generally ALL psionic characters should have STILL SPELL as a feat. Allthough CHARISMA will be your main stat, you should still have 12 min in wisdom.

If you're a specialist in a field, you should also get SPELL FOCUS :X and GREATER SPELL FOCUS: X And you should try and keep within the spell list as a guide, picking TWO disciplines (or spell lists) is probably the best way to go.

Note: it's also possible to put the summon 1-9 spells in the PSYCHOKINETIC list if it summons animated books, tables,chests etc instead.

Here is a conversion table for Arcane spells level 1-6 (note: most bard spells are included below in the normal arcane list.) (* healing is considered (psychometabolism). ) (* sound burst, dirge are types of psionic blast (telepathy) ) (* wounding whispers is a (psychokinetic) defence field. )

Clairsentience (looking into the subtler nature of things) (generally all divinations, some abjurations, some illusions) True Strike, Identify See Invisibility, Ultravision Clair Audience/ClairVoyance, Find Traps Shadow Conj, Lesser spell Breach Greater Shadow Conj True Seeing, Shades, Greater Spell Breach Prismatic Spray (see's into the weave , breaking strands and exposing the weave directly to your plane for a moment) Premonition Power Word Kill (see's into many creatures bodies, finds weakness and exploits them terminally) (shadow conjuration etc is achieved through 'seeing' into the weave and manipulating it psionically for the desired end) (Spell breaching is SEEING the way to unlock, bypass protection spells on a target by influencing how it's connected to the target)

Metacreativity (forming astral ectoplasm into real objects, substances) (Generally all conjurations, some evocations, some Transmute) Ice Dagger, Persistant Blade, Grease, Summon I Stone Bones, Summon II , Web, Acid Arrow Acid Breath, Flame arrow, Stinking Cloud, Summon III, Keen Edge (creates a monofiliment edge on the weapon) Evards Tentacles, Summon IV Cloudkill, Acid Sheath, Summon V Acid Fog, Summon VI Mordenkainen's Sword, Summon VII Summon VIII Summon IX, Black Blade (metacreative summons are ectoplasmic constructs from the astral plane)

Psychokinesis (control of matter and conversion of energies) (generally evocations, some necromancy, some transmutations, some abjura) Shield, Mage Armor, Horizkaul's Boom, Burning Hands, Magic missile Iron Horn (Telekinetic wave) , Flame Weapon, Combust, Knock, Electric Loop Lightning Bolt, Scintilating Sphere, Fireball, Gust of Wind (telekinetic push) Ice Storm, Missile storm, Wall of Fire, Minor Globe, Elemental Shield Ball Lightning, Interposing Hand, Cone of Cold, FireBrand, Animate Dead* (telekinetic control of bones) Globe of Invulnerability, Chain Lightning, Forceful Hand Grasping Hand, Del. Blast Fireball, Great Thunderclap, Control Undead* (telekinetic) Clenched Fist, Incendiary Cloud Crushing Hand, Meteor Swarm (Flame effects are called Pyrokinesis, Cold is Cryokinesis, Lightning is Electrokinesis, Others are Telekinesis)

Telepathy (control of minds) (generally all enchantment spells, large amount of illusions, some abjura) Charm person, Sleep, Scare, Protection From Evil, Color Spray Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility, Tasha's Laughter, Cloud of Bewilderment Clarity, Invisibility Sphere, Magic Circle Against Align Charm Monster, Confusion, Fear, Improved Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Lesser Mind Blank, Mind Fog LegendLore (a wide range E.s.p to gain information on the items) Power Word Stun (Psionic blast) Mass Blindness/Deafness, Mass Charm, Mind Blank Weird, Dominate Monster

Psychometabolist (changing the nature of self and others) (Mostly transmutations, some illusions, some abjura, some necromancy, some conj) Ray of Enfeeblement, Iron Guts, Expedious Retreat, Endure Elements Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom, Fox's Cunning, Ghoul touch, Resist elements, Ghostly Visage Haste, Slow, Prot From elements, Displacement Contagion , Remove Blindness Deafness, Stoneskin, Polymorph Self Energy Buffer, Lesser Spell Mantle (changes the metabolists body to absorb spells) Tenser's Transformation, Mass Haste, Greater Stoneskin, Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone, Ethereal Visage Spell Mantle, Shadow Shield Greater Sanctuary Shapechange, Greater Spell Mantle (Visage spells, Greater Sanc and displacement are all forms of etherealness) (ghoul touch, contagion are seen as being able to create TOXINs in another's blood stream on touch)

Psychoportation (transfer of matter and energy from one place to another) (Mostly Necromancy , Large amount of Abjurations, Some evocation) Negative energy ray, Magic Weapon (tranports energy to a weapon empowering it) Lesser Dispel, Death Armor, (Darkness, Continual Light): (transports light to or from a location) Dispel Magic, Negative energy Burst, Vampiric Touch Bestow Curse, Remove Curse, Enervation, Greater Magic Weapon Dismissal, Lesser Planar Binding Undeath to Death*, Planar Binding, Greater Dispelling, Circle Of Death Banishment, Protection from Spells (active magic teleportation field around various people) Blackstaff, Greater Planar Binding, Sunburst, Horrid Wilting, Create Undead* (teleports undead from another plane) Gate, Disjunction, Energy Drain, Time Stop (dispelling is achieved through shifting the magic itself to another plane) (Necromantic energy effects are in effect moving negative energy to and from a place) (bestow curse/remove curse is porting minute fragments of a targets brain away and back again) (Blackstaff, Magic weapon, Greater magic weapon are planar transportation of energy into items empowering them) *: These spells are pretty much wizard themed/specialists spells only and should not be generally used by a psionic character

(v1.1 moved timestop from psychometabolist to psychoport where it belongs :) )

I've considered applying for a pseudo-psionic character, though I was thinking about a mind blade. That's all pretty interesting and I like the idea. I'm assuming that the DMs would require an app for something like this...

Great idea, chaos.

I actually also applied to be a psionic of sorts, with a similar idea as far as engine bending.

However, I wanted to be telepathic too :)

Meow-mix!

Thats the hard one of course.. outside of what the spells can grant you ability wise. It's up to the d.m to (and the other player) to reveal their thoughts to the d.m so the d.m can filter them to you.

So it requires complicit players and d.m's.

You'd have to have other characters KNOW that you were telepathic (or were using an e.sp spell).. give them a CHECK they roll to see if you can read their mind, and give you the information that you would garner.

It's interesting certainly, but some players wouldnt be up for it, and you'd probably need a d.m around to adjudicate. So it can be hard.. but it probably might be rewarding in the right circumstances. Some players/npcs could be psionically DEAD as well.

You might notice I put prot from evil in the telepathy powers, somebody with that on cant be read at all by whatever alignment it's hedges maybe think of it as "thought shield". Clarity is the "mental barrier" , Lesser Mind Blank is "Intellect fortress" , Mind Blank is itself :)

The problem with trying to claim you are psionic using abilities is that dispel and counterspell works normal, showing that it is magic.

Psionic abilities should also to my knowledge be both "still" and "silent", requiring only concentration. You'll still be either uttering that arcane pig latin or waving your hands in a funny manner, can't take both away.

Psionics is a very interesting aspect of D&D, it's unfortunate that the engine doesn't support it... but it's just too different from the existing classes to be simulated by any of them.

From what I hear. Its kinda good that the engine does'nt support psionic. Since its so popular we'd have 500 or so psionics. I'm not sure but are'nt they supposed to be rare or is it the same rarity as a sorcerer?

Well it is a FAKED system after all.. it requires a little imagination on the part of the players.

I dont think STILL or SILENT metamagic feats stop the animations and sounds playing anyway do they?

You can also be counterspelled true but thats between the players , I havent seen many CREATURES try and counterspell players I must say.

Anyway it's there as an option, if you want to play a bard or sorceror and SAY that their abilities are "psionic" then thats fine, the engine will still classify you as a sorceror or bard.

I made it as a play option nothing more , I never said it was perfect :)

I guess it's a matter of opinion in the end whether some class like sorcerer would simulate psionics well enough, but if you'd need to begin sending tells to people saying "actually, I'm not a sorcerer, I'm a psion... just believe me, ok?", I think that's a sign of some pretty sad imitation. It'd be disruptive and just plain ridiculous to have to explain to new people who's a sorcerer and who's a "psion". (Putting it in your description doesn't change anything, anyone can do it.)

Besides, do we need psionics? No, no we don't. The supported classes are just enough for anyone's roleplaying needs.

Anthee Besides, do we need psionics? No, no we don't. The supported classes are just enough for anyone's roleplaying needs.

Otherwise I'd also say that we don't need Psionics (Or want them, in my case. To hell with them!)

Quick note on metamagics, last time I tested it, Still doesn't prevent movement animations but Silent Does prevent the sounds bieng played.

Psionics won't be happening on EFU, but feel free to discuss it at will.

Metro_Pack Psionics won't be happening on EFU, but feel free to discuss it at will.

On a somewhat related note, will NWN2 have support for any sort of psionics system?

I'm sure I read somewhere from ferret that it wont be in NWN2 at all.

Given that the underdark is supposed to be a psionic heavy area, deep duerra of the duergar, Mindflayers (the masters of psionics), dont know how beholders rate psionically. Drow I think are meant to have some abilities there also (but maybe that was 2nd edition)

I'm a bit suprised theres so much animosity toward a "faked" system, if you TELL people that you're psionic and that you do these things with your mind, arent they METAGAMING calling you a sorceror? I wonder what people would say if your character just denied that they were a wizard, never roleplayed "playing" an instrument and yet still had those abilities.

Anyway it's no biggy, was just a virtual imagination layer option.

chaosprism I'm sure I read somewhere from ferret that it wont be in NWN2 at all.

Given that the underdark is supposed to be a psionic heavy area, deep duerra of the duergar, Mindflayers (the masters of psionics), dont know how beholders rate psionically. Drow I think are meant to have some abilities there also (but maybe that was 2nd edition)

I'm a bit suprised theres so much animosity toward a "faked" system, if you TELL people that you're psionic and that you do these things with your mind, arent they METAGAMING calling you a sorceror? I wonder what people would say if your character just denied that they were a wizard, never roleplayed "playing" an instrument and yet still had those abilities.

Anyway it's no biggy, was just a virtual imagination layer option.

Or is it you who's metagaming we can't see your actual classes :P

To clarify any confusion--

No character has any psionic abilities unless they apply for them and are accepted through the regular application process. Your character can pretend that their bard/sorcerer/wizard spells are "psionic abilities," but they aren't, and that will be clear in various circumstances (dispelling, for example, or when encountering a proper psionicist, or even when people see you waving your hands around or chanting to cast them).

Thats fair enough of course.. it's only a system to fake it, I'd expect an application to even be able to attempt to fake it because you'd need strong reasons for your character to be that way in the first place, the idea here was simply a way to do it in NWN where there is NO OFFICIAL SUPPORT for it at all.

On a side note: I think using Bard or sorceror as a faked Psionic class is probably more balanced than any OFFICIAL support of psionics would be anyway that would have a psionic point system etc but thats outside what i'm trying to outline here.

Or is it you who's metagaming we can't see your actual classes?

A normal fighter could well call himself a paladin of X with no levels in paladin at all, he may simply believe he is one even without support of a deity of that sort. I've definitely seen on another server a fighter who played a "fallen paladin" quite well, not the evil blackguardy sort, the one that's turned his back on his order and the laws he saw as doing more harm then good.

chaosprism if you TELL people that you're psionic and that you do these things with your mind, arent they METAGAMING calling you a sorceror?

No, I really don't think I'd be metagaming as much as suspecting that this guy is just trying to feel special. And as said, if that suspicion needs to be dispelled by telling other people what you're "really" supposed to be, then we have a problem with plausibility. If we can't agree on that, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on how far one's imagination can be stretched without the whole thing looking awkward and silly.

Thats all a matter of interpretation isnt it, and in the end you'd have to get anything "unusual" past the d.m's via an application anyway.

Beyond that it's up to the players and d.m's to support it in game, I've seen a tailed tiefling on here, thats unusual enough as it is.

The whole place can start to look like the 'freakshow' streets of SIGIL rather than the underdark if you have too many visually unusual looking people around, however the underdark IS an unusual place, it's not the surface world at all.

As for people wanting to be "special", i'm sure theres a lot of people wanting to do so, some do it visually and some will be "special" just because of how they roleplay their character. Is one any more valid than another? I'd say if you can make it believable and enjoyable for everyone rather than just an outlet for your ego then you're doing the community a favour. You're improving the immersion and quality of the setting, which responds to the efforts of those within it. The NPC's can be the unwashed masses of normal slave escapee's but i'm sure most players dont want to play something there's already 100's of. Though i'm sure some players will enjoy the challenge of playing the average joe too.

If there was'nt allready 100 npc and 100's of players it would take the specialness out of it for those players who do get approved for neat things :)

There are a few things to be said.

First off, being special is not something one must feel awkward about.

On the other hand, being special could well fit within the game mechanics. If I encounter someone who claims to be a Psionic, I'll call him a nutter. If he starts casting spells that I can counter/ dispell, I'll do just that, to prove that he is not a Psionic. There's a whole bunch of stuff you can do that the game mechanics allow, and do not require constant OOCing like "Hey, I am actually a Psionic you know, so roleplay along".

Same type of example, if a Druid changes into a batshape, and starts OOCing around like "// Hey guys, I am actually flying 30 feet high, you can't attack me, and add a +10 to my hide and move silently skill because I'm so far away!! Really!!" I'd just call him a nutter. There's ever so much things I can, and will tolerate.

In short, as summarizing as I always am, don't cross the line the game mechanics drew.

If you want to play a psionicist, you'd need some a seriously good application, and probably a history of great characters for it to be successful. There are a few provisions in nwn for it, even though they don't work as well as they really should.

If you want to play a sorcerer/bard, that's fine, just don't claim you have telepathic powers (unless you're a ghostwise halfling, natch). No one will be forced to play along with it, and people will probably just look at you funny.

chaosprism I'm sure I read somewhere from ferret that it wont be in NWN2 at all.

Given that the underdark is supposed to be a psionic heavy area, deep duerra of the duergar, Mindflayers (the masters of psionics), dont know how beholders rate psionically. Drow I think are meant to have some abilities there also (but maybe that was 2nd edition)

I'm a bit suprised theres so much animosity toward a "faked" system, if you TELL people that you're psionic and that you do these things with your mind, arent they METAGAMING calling you a sorceror? I wonder what people would say if your character just denied that they were a wizard, never roleplayed "playing" an instrument and yet still had those abilities.

Anyway it's no biggy, was just a virtual imagination layer option.

First, nobody will be playing an Illithid or a deep duerra.

There is no metagaming involved in saying you are a sorcerer. Every time you use your magic, you will chant and wave your hands around. Using a feat, you can stop on of the two, but not the other. Also, anyone who clicks on you with counterspelling will counter your powers. That makes you a sorcerer, not a psionist.

chaosprism As for people wanting to be "special", i'm sure theres a lot of people wanting to do so, some do it visually and some will be "special" just because of how they roleplay their character. Is one any more valid than another?

Your character will never be distinguished by their class or levels or how much strength they have. None of it matters because anyone can do the same things if they want to. What makes your character different is how they are known.

My two cents for the last time in this thread.

Anthee Your character will never be distinguished by their class or levels or how much strength they have. None of it matters because anyone can do the same things if they want to. What makes your character different is how they are known.

Anyhow, I was trying to get across a point that I feel you're still missing. In a nutshell, the awkwardness and inconsistencies inherent in imitating a class so dramatically different from the existing ones outweighs the potential roleplay benefits, precisely for the above reason: your character's game-mechanical statistics are never the most important part about them. Introducing psionics to PCs isn't preferable if it comes with the problems already brought up many times. More bad than good would come out of it.

Look, it was only an idea to approximate the abilities inside the NWN engine, you also seem to be missing my point. All the d.m's have pretty much piped in now and said that it's a rare thing to even allow which is as I expected. I only suggested a system to allow it, and as I've said it's not perfect, you can only do so much with a faked system. If they really wanted psionics as an option theres other servers out there that have implemented them with haks (turning the abilities into feat abilities) (using the PRC pak etc)

In the end if the people involved cant get past the downsides of the virtual layer it's not going to work anyway, because it needs the support of players and d.m's to work, it's always been in their hands.

p.s. Another option to stop counterspells is quicken spell metamagic feat which the d.m's could quite happily use when controlling a mindflayer themselves. Also special undropable wands with a group of powers inside with charges that regenerate with rest, could simulate psionic powers since they wouldnt be counterspellable. The problem with dispel magic would probably require a change to the dispel scripts that would not remove effects applied by the wands. (based on the setting of a locally set variable or such)

Anyway it's just an idea.. and with no support it has no future. Thanks for your comments anyway people, i'm sure in time i'll come up with some other suggestion(s) to drive you crazy :)