I just have to say this,

when did Big Brother take over the server?

That announcement has left me, very sad for the state of things here really.

NWN is a game. When people play a game, they brag, they smack talk, they joke around with their friends. Anyone who isn't getting that, is not here playing a game with their friends obviously.

Anyone who starts to dislike someone for it, for having a sense of fun and humor and a healthy, and I do say healthy, sense of competition really should not be here. I know that I don't, do not, simply do not, enjoy those people in a community that I am in.

So, its left me rather sad, that the ability to speak openly is being discouraged, that we're to self-censor, that it comes in an Announcement that makes it sound like their will be Consequences(TM) if we don't self-censor.

Its all, really, remarkably sad. I can't be the only one that feels that.

Despite the impulse to wave the concern down, thinking about it, I've actually got to agree. I think you may be making a bigger deal out of it than it deserves, but then, it does seem like things have been moving progressively in this direction for a good long while now.

EfU is not a kiddie server. Between the concepts of slavery, torture, and murder that go on every day in game, there's not much room for kiddy-gloves. How long is it until PvP is forbidden because of all the bad-feelings that go along with it?

On the other side of the coin, you may just be reading too much into this. They aren't saying you can't do all the things you normally do in IRC and elsewhere - just that you needn't put people in a situation where people compare the rewards they've recieved for things they've done, and find that they don't quite measure up the same.

Expectancy theory!

I deleted the post until I can make my position more clear. Basically I am just encouraging players to be more mindful about the feelings of other players when they choose to talk about winning at PvP, or getting a certain amount of DM XP, or getting some nice loot.

I have no problem with banter, but I know I as a DM don't like to see the amount of DM XP I give out being announced like it was the score to a math exam. And I know players do not like being told every other minute about some piece of flashy loot.

The thing is I don't think people even typically realize they are "bragging" a bit, and I'd just encourage everyone to try to be more mindful.

Either way, there's obviously going to be no serious consequences from the DM team for this kind of stuff. I am just trying to give helpful advice.

Hrm. I agree with both Oro and Howland on this. I enjoy the certain level of competition Oro is talking about, but I have learned to reserve it more for my friends in PM's and such.

I'd like to illustrate "When bragging goes wrong"

Jonny just finished a quest. Jonny is very happy. He walks along in Lower, getting ready to log off for the night. Happy happy happy.

But before Jonny can get into the Pissing Crone, Bobby hits him with his big mean scythe. Jonny is sent directly to the fugue, with no RP, and no chance for retaliation.

Now Jonny is sad.

Bobby is now the happy one, so he decides to send Jonny a tell. "OWNED!!"

Now Jonny isn't sad.

Jonny is mad. So Jonny logs off, and begins talking to his friends about how Bobby treated him in their pvp. Now Jonny and his friends begin avoiding Bobby's characters. Some of them might even complain to a DM about Bobby. Complain a lot.

Now Bobby is sad. Nobody wants to play with Bobby

Yes, that's about as well as I can articulate myself. A children's story. I hope I made my points well.

It's not like we're going to be stomping people out over this, but when wild OOC bragging/talking up of their PCs is making EFU less fun for others, I think a general reminder for people to check themselves is apt. At the very least, keep it to people you know very well and that you are 100% sure they won't be annoyed.

For example, if you once killed someone in PVP, please refrain from bringing it up all the time in IRC as an example of your imagined awesomeness. If you have 30 AC, a magic dagger of superdeath, and a 1337 cleric/ftr build with empowered spells, try not to remind everyone in your party of it OOCly every time you kill some monsters. It annoys the shit out of people!

For my part, I half disagree and half disagree. I think that Oroborous is being a little meldoramatic with decries of tyranny being inflicted upon the server- however, what does bragging constitute? If I get a DM quest with loot at the end and I really enjoy it, my impulse is to share it with other players. Does this constitute as 'bragging'? I think everyone likes to share when they've had fun, or recount dramatic moments from server history. And I for one odn't mind hearing others.

Everyone likes to announce their joy of having reward from a nice DM quest, or plot or their work with the character. Nothing new there. Now, the line is that it might not be too nice to start saying stuff like: "I always make a good character and get nice lewt especially designed for me, because I deserve it."

I'm bad at making examples, but even if that kind thing is very likely true, people rarely can take it as words. Some just don't got imagination, or may not success to gain such, but are still happy, until they are constantly reminded of their own 'flaws' or unsuccesful attempts for glory. No one takes offense when you give out a shout of getting some reward for nice quest, but bragging about always getting it, implying that you deserved it, and most of others won't reach for it or something similar, now that's where it gets to you.

Piece of my mind, though I am not sure if I was able to explain it.

Kotenku

EfU is not a kiddie server. Between the concepts of slavery, torture, and murder that go on every day in game, there's not much room for kiddy-gloves.

This is true in theory. But we have all seen that players here have an amazing capacity to behave like children. And sometimes, if the kid glove fits....

Cluckyx

Kotenku

EfU is not a kiddie server. Between the concepts of slavery, torture, and murder that go on every day in game, there's not much room for kiddy-gloves.

This is true in theory. But we have all seen that players here have an amazing capacity to behave like children. And sometimes, if the kid glove fits....

Cluckyx is EfU's Willy Wonka.

Luckily we all have the choice to ignore such bragging.

I myself always use the old trick of being old and English to claim i have no idea what "pwned" and "hawt" mean (actually i have no idea what Hawt does mean...)

*sobs and goes back to reading his paper and smoking his pipe*

Damn youth of today...

Just do this sort of stuff with people you know will not get upset about it and it's not a problem.

Quite frankly, the people getting upset need to do one of several things--rather than the people bragging change their behavior.

1) Grow up. Realize, people playing games like to blow off excited energy through bragging.

2) Stand up. If it bugs them so damn much, they can be adults and talk to the person who is annoying them. Politely say, you know, you're being uncouth right now, and constantly bragging about how you pwned me is actually bringing me down a little. Could you lay off please?

3) Get lost. If you need to be protected by kiddie gloves, go play Club Penguin. I here the moderators there don't allow bragging either, or naughty words, or any other bad thing you can possibly be exposed to in the real world where real people are.

Quite frankly, the onus shouldn't be on the braggers. If they want to look silly for getting woodage over their +1 daggers, let them. I've come across people who bragged about stuff in a manner that bugged me in the past, I told them they were being silly and 'nuff said.

I've had people tell me it bugged me when I was "bragging"; actually two other players were mocking me but it looked like bragging to the outside party; I went and ASKED the first two players to lay off because some people were being frustrated by it.

We can all act like a bunch of adults. I don't want to play on a kiddie server.

In a kiddie server, the teachers tells all the little boys and girls to behave.

In an adult server, your friends just tell you when you're acting the fool--on BOTH sides of this issue. Without a fiat from the DM team.

Believe me, when I say, I know where this kind of misguided effort to stamp out player discourse leads. Ham-fisted attempts to reign in perceived "misbehavior" that is really no more than excited energy over the sheer awesome things that happen on this server, because some over-sensitive emo-kids are crying about it--just is a lousy precedent.

If one or two people are really so bad, that the entire DM team needed to put their full weight and authority behind a statement forbidding "nautiness" then the entire DM team would have been better served, I feel quite strongly, to talk to those two people directly. If the problem is so endemic that it affects dozens of players who are all wretchedly bragging, then the problem was probably with the emo-sissies who need to be told to grow up a little.

All in all, its just not the proper use of DM authority to step into the way a community talks. We are, for the most part, a friendly bunch of harangers. I mean, even people I HATE in IRC, I'm comfortably with when they're teasing me, bragging about whacking me, mocking me endlessly for one reason or another--because we're playing a game. Its part of gamer culture.

I think, in their effort to protect feelings, or to avoid having to deal with whining emo-sissies, or in their annoyance that people get excited when they get recognition from the DMs (like a puppy that is so happy to see you it pees on your carpet)--that the DMs issued a fiat. They forgot just how much authority anything they say carries, how much more so when it comes as an Announcement with a wide blanket statement aimed not at just the so-called "problem" players, but the entire player base that the act itself comes across as a ham-fisted effort to curb people's free speech.

The internet is not America, there is no amendment to the Constitution granting free speech--instead, the internet itself IS free speech. Such attempts will come across in a very poor light. Quite frankly, last night talking to people in IRC who felt as I do, I had to work hard to avoid the word fascist. Yet, that word sticks to mind. When people use their personal authority to curb behavior in others, that does not cause any real harm to society, you edge close to that status. With all due respect, that is what motivated my "over-reaction".

I don't apologize for that. I surely apologize for any "fascist" comments I made in private while venting. That's clearly not the case here, I know that and knew that yesterday too. However, I've not given my perspective without over-reaction, and as calmly as I can. This was, frankly I think, approached very, very poorly--but moreso, I tried to explain what I believe, based on my own experience with this same problem, is a better solution.

I think the announcement was more:

Brag at your own risk: -Risk of causing contempt in those who feel superior to you. -Risk of causing jealousy in those who feel inferior to you.

Thankfully, those who feel your equals will tolerate your bragging and send it back at you with flowers.

Same deal with bragging about how much money you make. Ain't good no where except among people who feel like your equals.

Ultimately, I think Howland's announcement was just a simple advice to make people integrate themselves better to the efu community - it was made public to avoid the grief of targetting people directly.

I concur with Mort.

TBH, the post seemed more a 'Well, we don't want any bad vibes here' thing, as opposed to Herr Howland beating us into the ground. I can see, Oroborous, why you could be disturbed by such an event, but I think that there's little to be really afraid of.

While discouraging bragging would be on the iffy side, I don't quite think it warrants mass public uprise. I mean, I'm as glad to rise up and through off our overlord oppressors as the next guy, but it becomes hard when there are no overlord oppressors. If I wanted unmoderated, profane, pointless and insane conversations with a picture of a penicorn every 3 posts, Id be on the Newgrounds forums, now wouldn't I? The very fact that this post hasn't been locked or deleted kinda shows this isn't a orwellian nightmare.

Little do I know, however, quite how far the malady has spread. Nuclear Catastrophe has now added this little phrase to my post. PRAISE HIM FOR THE MIGHTY OVERLORD THAT HE IS. VOTE HOWLAND FOR EMPEROR OF EARTH. ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE US.

I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords.

Ellisandro actually i have no idea what Hawt does mean...

It's a way of saying hot. As in, good.

To be honest, I'm what you'd call the youth of today, and still don't understand it myself.

:lol:

Strife, Ix de Ferrat, Jenner Tenken, Ferdinand Fenwick.

Same time.

This post has prompted my new forum title.

i personally (or at least try to) rarely mention certain exp gifts/ 'uber' items i get off dms.

i always got the impression that it was a bit of a private matter between the player and the dm.

anyone else think that, or am i just odd?

I only keep it private if the DM is a girl, AstralPhoenix. If the DM's a guy... then yeah, it's hideously odd to have a "private matter" with another dude online. (And EfU has no girl DMs, which is really, really sad, but alas, such is life. :/)

More on the topic-I enjoy bragging about how hot my PC is in tells, but the e-girls seem to be getting less and less taken with that as time goes on, so I think Howland may just be on to something! Perhaps if I'd let my PC's actions do the talking instead of his ultra-sexy looks and voice, I might not be in the situation I'm in now. Oh well. Substance over aesthetics and frivolities-maybe I'll learn one day! :/

-SaRF

lulz. Don't confuse a 'private' matter with a private matter :shock:

-----------

This all feels very knee-jerk, in all directions.

I agree, let's get a little maturity, and some actual perspective.

I feel this post is aimed at me, I enjoy bragging about what my PC's have accomplished and emoting his uber loot, at the same time, I've never received a single tell asking me to stop.

Thomas I feel this post is aimed at me, I enjoy bragging about what my PC's have accomplished and emoting his uber loot, at the same time, I've never received a single tell asking me to stop

I think it's good to emote what "uber l337 l3w7z" your character is carrying, personally. I mean, if he's holding something clearly enchanted and powerful, it's not going to look like "just another longsword".

Like so many DM quotes in a signature.

I concur.

Thomas_Not_very_wise I feel this post is aimed at me.

Don't brag.

Halfbrood

Thomas_Not_very_wise I feel this post is aimed at me.

Don't brag.

:lol:

I think Thomas became the most popular player I've seen in my times in EFU (not even a year).

Nevertheless I don't think it's always for the good reasons.

:)

lol

The litmus test for evil actions that I use:

1. Does this make more fun for the players I am interacting with? 2. Will the other players feel OOCly greifed if I do this? 3. Are my IC reasons for this action strong enough? 4. Does this push plot and role play? 5. Am I including other players or excluding them? 6. Is there any area that I might be metagaming in the situation? (such as checking the start up page to make sure the "mark" is a lowbie)

Now why do I even mention this? Because when I take the time to consider the implications of my actions, it allows me to make sure that I am not the only one who is having "fun" in a situation.

The EFU gaming experience is flavored by the players who inhabit it. I have had my fair share of honorable opponents who would send me tells before and after PvP. They did this to insure that our OOC friendship isn't damaged by any misunderstandings. I have even started some OOC relationships with players because our two characters clashed.

After a conflict has come to its conclusion, it is important for me to be able to "shake the hand" of my opponent and know that there are no hard feelings. That we will create new characters and create new struggles and conflicts, but that I do not hate the player, nor do I harbour any malicious intent. If another player perceives that I am greifing, I want them to tell me.

The flavor changes when I ignore the perceptions of the other players. EFU is a multiplayer game, and I will interact with new and unknown people. If I concentrate only on my self-interests and include only the people I think of as friends, then I steal the fun away from other players.

As to the bragging... When someone else pats me on the back I feel that I have earned it. When I pat myself on the back it appears that I am conceited.

I played chess with my niece and some of her friends. One of the boys that I played against was cocky, brash and loud. The boy got frustrated when I began to win the game. After a few moves, the boy saw he could take my rook with one of his bishops. The boy took the piece, held it in the air, told everyone “This old man can’t play!” and gave me the finger. The boy left the game as if taking that one piece proved something (he probably realized he was still going to lose.) The chess game was for fun. I had let the boy win before that game, and the boy’s unwholesome attitude remained the same for each game. A poor winner and a poor loser.

The best litmus test for bragging is when you notice that the person you defeated remains silent.

As for censorship—I would rather know what the other person really felt like saying. I can be a better judge of someone’s personality when they are allowed to put their foot in their mouth. However, even though the internet “is free speech”, this server is run and maintained by an individual. The owner of the website has the right to edit or delete whatever materials they wish. Howland’s forum = Howland’s rules. Since I respect Howland, I adhere to the policies he states. Howland wants a specific “flavor” for EFU, and he affords me the privilege to participate.

All of this to say… I am mindful of others, and so there is more enjoyment for everyone.

I played EFU because of its excellent community. I stayed because the DMs worked hard to make interesting stories, and I was able to have fun and get to know people from all over the world. EFU…a fun game played with friends.

can't we all just get along?

Did I miss something important?

You did not.

Necromancy.