I know this is a controversial topic, but I think Lower needs a bit of a change to make it good. I think there are two options.

Either it needs to get its free PvP status back.

Or it needs some NPCs who can actually influence PvP.

I play at times when there often is no DM on, or when there is one, he is busy. Since the PvP roll back, there have been numerous awkward conversations where people should be fighting, but suddenly aren’t. I have seen recent muggers walk around with impunity while their victims can do nothing. I have seen fights from the tunnels stop because one party runs up an ally into an almost empty shady alleyway. I have seen it used as an excuse to annoy players by taunting them knowing there is no recourse to violence.

What is even more frustrating for me, is when you finally actually get a DM, they don't add anything. The most that is done is to possess a beggar and provide a bit of combat commentary.

Since PvP is allowed elsewhere without restriction, and since no one in Lower seems to do anything to change a fight, it seems silly not to be able to fight there when no DM is on. I think the current situation is breaking my suspicion of disbelief as a player, and waters down the feel of Lower, which is now often safer than it should be.

If there is a strong desire from the DM team not to have PvP without a DM, make an IG reason. Even if the gangs are all weak due to IG actions, there must be a steady influx of hard men who were slaves. Have a few stand around on the corners, who can chip into a melee as the DM sees fit.

I personally agree with your points and wish to see Lower once again rolled back to the original rule.

However!

It was rolled back for a reason. We allowed unsupervised PvP there for a time, and in as many occasions as not, people managed to break integral PvP rules. The result was OOC shitfights and a torrent of frustration from all parties involved, players and DMs alike. The simple truth is that we do not trust the playerbase, at this juncture, to consistently PvP unsupervised without breaking PvP rules.

Over time our trust might be renewed and the rule re-instated.

To be honest i think it's better to have a dm on when initiating PVP no matter where it happens but that is just a personal preference of mine, much as me sending tells to the player to let them know what is going to happen to make sure that they are okay with it.

I strongly agree with Scrappayeti! I have had many times a goblin or kobold sit there and talk smack to me and sit by NPCs knowing there is not a DM on and that I cannot do a single thing about it. It is very annoying to have something like this happen. I have to compromise my PC because no DM is around to watch me beat some monsterous race into the ground that in reality no begger would care if I did! Sure I can see if I am standing next to a bugbear or ogre NPC. On top of that, 75% of kobolds and goblin PCs will play as they are neutral not evil and then question me as why I am wanting to kill them saying they are just trying to make a living or something like that. Goblin and kobolds are supposed to scum, lesser being no one care about yet I cannot attack one without fearing some begger will care... hardly very real.

I just think if you want lower to be this dangerous place of gangs and such then it should be free pvp zone. Players should understand that even setting foot down there can get you beat up, mugged, or killed! I you walked into some bad parts of town in real life, you think they wait for a DM to watch? Hell no you are on their turf! We also had a great deal of lower concepts and groups going at the time of free pvp. Now lower is more stale. It is a pain when you play at times when no DMs are on, seriously.

I personally think this is something that should be reversed!

I have personally been affected by the No-PVP rule. I can't be badass, if I have to wait for a DM before backhanding those bastards who are back-talking me.

DMs are busy people.

While I encountered it with Galmor, I've even encountered it with Vrask.

You get into an argument with someone, and for all intents and purposes, its go time.

Except you need a DM.

Dms get busy. Often. While i've yet to have a dm tell me "GTFO NO PVP", when asked for DM presence, It resulted in me waiting 15 minutes, and all the "Feeling" gone from it.

That said however, I think the most massive point Scrappa makes, is the DM Interaction point.

The biggest extent i've seen during PvP, was "Whoa. He lit that dude on fire!" on one occasion, and a few beggars laughing at a character's ineptness to PvP on another, then simply unpossession. If there's not some burly fuckers in place to break up fights, Or repercussions for PvP in lower, I honestly think the rule needs to be modified.

Killing a man in lower does nothing, but being forced to have a DM oversight I understand, but there's no reprocussion or anything done , ICly.

DM oversight often involves in possessing a few standing by NPCs to give off a witty one liner.

ICly, Being forced to let people make baseless threats or insults, and being unable to crack their face open, is a horrible break of immersion. If you want there to be a "No PVP without a DM rule", there has to be something ICly that is done. ICly my character wouldn't give a damn what a beggar thought.

I understand the need for the DM oversight, I do, but when people ICly act their character like a jackass, I should be able to ICly act my character breaking their face in.

There's no watch or anything in Lower to stop a fight. Yet all fights stop until a DM is grabbed. And even then its just OOC observation. Nothing is done IC but a few off handed comments.

To me, That needs to be fixed, or the rule needs to be changed. THe fact that immersion has to be broken due to a lack of Online/Non-Busy, DM, is something I think that many PC's abuse to avoid getting their ass kicked.

When DMs are unavailable, it falls on players to avoid deliberately creating situations they know might result in PvP, such as summoning an undead in front of a paladin. It can be difficult, but we all have to make compromises, and forcing somebody into compromising their PC unreasonably much by not respecting their forcibly imposed handicap is selfish and, quite frankly, childish. I, for one, am perfectly fine with the rule back in effect, and hope it stays like that for a good long while.

I was playing a Lower-only character during the Era of Madness. It was fun, it was brutal, but things got nasty OOC, especially when things switched into FD mode which by the end of it was more likely than not. It was a good experiment, but so many good characters were killed prematurely by the desensitized PCs. I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but the problems caused by the period were not exclusive to Lower. Everyone just started killing each other without letting conflicts build up, everyone just wanted to not die to continue their PCs story and so they wanted to make the first strike (which is usually the best way NOT to die). The repercussions weren't worth it and people are thinking a lot more clearly about when someone should be FDd.

As for having influential NPCs...

I've been chased down by the burly Harrison before because of PvP. Not everyone runs away from the fights!

Second, this is a complicated issue because there's a major IG problem surrounding it- nobody wants to take the responsibility of controlling Lowers and few are strong enough to even try.

Why can't unsupervised PvP be allowable, as long as its subdual and not FD?

I don't see how/why people would complain about PvP in lower as long as they aren't killed. DM's, is that the source of the OOC shitfights?

Or is it, "That 7th level barbarian took my ubercloak of hiding! WAAAHHHH!"

I say tough crap if you get robbed of everything you have in Lower. That's the way it should be.

But FD sucks enough when supervised by a DM. At least if you know a DM is there, you know its kosher.

Players that complain about PvP and cause shitfights should be banned if they prevent the rest of the playerbase from experiencing a badass PvP environment in one location of the server.

Snoteye, you don't always know if and when a DM is on. Sometimes situations happen very fast and they cannot be helped. No full death pvp in lower might be a decent answer to this perhaps, only subdual?

Also I don't think people are thinking more about attacking others now. I for one don't even try most of the time anymore when I would attack someone. Usually I cannot get a DM to help me then I get aggrivated about how I cannot play my PC how he would so I avoid those situation, which in itself is a shame. No one should have to avoid things.

I vote for the reinstatement of DM-free PvP in Lower. I think that the only time a DM should need to be present is for FD PvP. In other words, I think A DM should need to be present in order for a player to kill another player.

I remember just a few months ago the Ledskirs running around and I used to only go to Lower if I absolutely had to, and even then I was always running and looking over my shoulder. It was great. Some poor guy begrudgingly paid the Ledskirs once and then decided to smart talk them...guess what he got? That's right..The butt kicking he deserved. The only unfortunate part of the entire incident was when the player "came to" he was all pissed off, said a few OOC comments and logged off. But I hardly blame that on the PvP. If he had kept his mouth shut instead of insulting two dwarves in full plate wielding greataxes he probably would have been alright ;)

My point is, that's how I envision Lower. Tough guys should rule down there and tough guys travelling in packs -definitely- rule.

Again, I don't believe in FD all the time,even for Goblins and Kobolds, but no one should feel bad about those races being used as punching bags on occassion (they are monsters)...

What is the argument against DM-less subdual mode PvP in Lower, with DM being required for any FD PvP down there?

-Kalos

As a compromise could it be changed to a "no full death pvp" in Lower without DM supervision?

You could then beat someone down while waiting for a DM, but have to wait for the DM before doing anything too drastic.

I think one of the reasons pvp is such a big deal on EFU is because so many people FD right away when a beat down might be appropriate.

Gwydion Or is it, "That 7th level barbarian took my ubercloak of hiding! WAAAHHHH!"

Yes, that is it actually. But reason it out this way-- it's still a game. People are still putting time and effort into getting their ubercloak, just as they are putting time and effort into plots which would be influenced by their death in random PvP. People are upset over the same thing, just to a different degree. I understand your point, and I agree, Waah!, but it's still a Wah situation.

Non-FD will not make it better, from experience. In fact, it might make it worse. I've seen people (and made the unfortunate mistake of being seriously involved in DOING so once) of being knocked out of a fight then returning to FD someone. If you think dying is bad, try being the dead one in that situation. It's quite possibly the biggest slap in the face you can do to another player because most of the time, the DMs cannot ressurrect them because it can't be justified in game. Don't do it. And please don't turn Lower back into open PvP again.

I think one big thing is being forgotten here-- PvP in the Underdark where noone is around is still legit, for example. There are plenty of places to have this kind of PvP liberality. Just not in a street crowded with beggars, feces, and dead puppies like Lower and where PCs are commonly walking about.

I was involved in a major PvP fight right before the rule in question was reinstated. Having spent three or four hours in the DM Area trying to figure out who died, where they died, who was subdued, where they ran, if they got up, who had stuff stolen, which stuff belonged to who, and what NPC's saw what... I can safely say I'd rather things be the way they are right now.

The alternative is having multiple DM's in the DM Area with a ton of PC's trying to sort out what happened. Then having the DM's try and come up with a reasonable compromise to the situation.

The point is, Garem, that lower isn't a lawful place. Sure people put time and effort into their PCs but so do the other players who maybe have perfectly IC reasons to attack someone. Is it fair to them too? When you are subdued you are not supposed to get up anyways after but hell if you start a fight you should be prepared for all outcomes.

Yes you can fight in the Underdark, but the point is about lower and pvp not all pvp rules. DMs claim players exploited the pvp rule but I see players exploit the no pvp rule without a DM a lot as well. If lower isn't so dangerous maybe a DM faction of guards or gangs or something should rise to keep general control and have a reason for needing a DM, as I see it now there really is not one.

It's really unfortunate that a few questionable players have forced this rule. I think Lower was a bit cooler when it was wild and dangerous, but it got to be kind of silly when people would try to FD me over absolute nonsense. Trying to full death someone because you disagreed with everyone being paid equally or a minor insult is absolutely ridiculous. Making general pvp legal in Lower without a DM, but requiring one to be around when you FD (or possibly dryloot) seems like a decent compromise.

If people violate the rules, ban them. It's better than forcing excessive regulation on the majority who play by the rules.

A simple fix might be the Hoaran faction. I know it is woefully weak with players, but if a few NPC Uber Hoarn's were takeing vigilanty status and standing "watch" on the main byways, it would address the "why would a beggar care" scenario.

Course, I do not know there doctrine well, and perhaps this is an ananthem to what they stand for. Otherwise, the only reason for the rule is to avoid the "crying game" after a beatdown. (Not an advocate of the FD, unless your a Goblin or Kobie...then you know what your in for when you rolled that char up.)

We like PvP in Lower, and we like that the NPCs pretty much just watch. And although I am sympathetic to those of you who want to be able to PvP-freely and don't like it when this rule hinders your character's RP, the simple fact of the matter is that we got sick of routinely having to spend hours at a time working things out OOC'ly after the fact.

Im all for keeping the current rules in place. Im not sure if anyone has thought about this but even having the old rules re-instated would still put certain groups at a disadvantage. An example of this would be a LE Wizard a type of charecter who wouldent care less about innocents getting hurt if it meant he stayed safe and survived.

In the old free pvp rules half of said charecters spells would be useless since i couldent Ooc risk casting them without hitting Npc's (Npc's not being botherd about a Kobold being beaten is one thing having someone lobing fireballs around is another) which meant such a charecter would already be at a huge disadvantage however the current rules level the playing field meaning all charecters can fight without an unfair Ooc handicap (or rather in this case all charecters now have the handicap.)

I can see both sides.

You can't stop every player from abusing this rule and FDing people over the stupidest thing like not handing out the pay like you want it.

You can't stop every person from Dry looting.

You can bash every goblin kobold you see.

You can bash every person who insults you and your god.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I got three things to say to you: GET A DM.

One other problem being that Lower is close to efficient NPCs that might want to react to Pvp.

ex: if you are attacked, you run in the Crone. What then? Does the ogre do nothing? Same thing in the beacon, the pumphouse, etc.

Lower is chaotic, but there are some havens which people might reach, and where DM is needed.

If someone reaches these safe havens, PvP can't go on. That's how it used to be.

Thomas_Not_very_wise I can see both sides.

You can't stop every player from abusing this rule and FDing people over the stupidest thing like not handing out the pay like you want it.

You can't stop every person from Dry looting.

You can bash every goblin kobold you see.

You can bash every person who insults you and your god.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I got three things to say to you: GET A DM.

Dry looting- is this looting a bag after a victim has fallen in combat, even though you have not been involved in the pvp?

If it is, seems like something completely legit for lower, where the streets are full of starving and struggleing folks, before the body hits the floor, they would be pulling off booots, cloaks and what not unless the killer begins protecting his kill "loot" which I have seen happen and lead to more pvp :twisted:

Things are good as they are.

If you feel there's a must for PvP, challenge Barrister Fawkes' and his wife to meet you outside the Lower city gates or inside the tunnels, promise him you'll break his arm if not more. Whether Barrister will incline or decline to your challenge can be played out IC; with PvP or another outcome to follow. It's a simple solution and in half the cases will actually add some to the whole.

Things are fine as they are.

They can be better if there was more ability to PvP in Lower.

What NPC will bother to stop it? If it becomes clear some force in Lower will keep the peace, some NPC force in lower should be obviously out and about keeping the peace.

I don't actually see that force.

So while its definitely "fine", it IC and OOC isn't making sense.

I don't think its really sinking in at all.

We changed it back to needing a DM because too many PvP rules were broken, and not because there is some force in Lower who would stop it.

There is a clear and resounding DM 'no' here, which is fine. I don't want this to keep going in circles, so a lock might be in order. That having been said, there is one point I am still not clear on.

I sympathise with DMs who get post PvP blues, and I acknowledge that people busted rules. The only thing I am not clear on is why the Lower area in particular has a limitation that is an OOC constraint. You can PvP in front of your own faction NPCs, you can PvP where there are no NPCs. Why not PvP in front of NPCs that do nothing? Is there something particular to Lower than means rules are more likely to be busted than a bouncer tossing someone from the crone, a guard arresting a perp or a bunch of thugs waylaying the unwary?

Lower was the only area in which blue NPCs were present and didn't need DM supervision to fight in front of (disregarding faction areas like Watch in Upper, which is different). Moreover, except for Upper, its the most commuted area of the module, so PvP there without DM supervision was rampant (not a bad thing in and of itself), and much of this PvP was marred by flagrant violations of PvP rules.

MadCaddies I don't think its really sinking in at all.

We changed it back to needing a DM because too many PvP rules were broken, and not because there is some force in Lower who would stop it.

It sunk in, I missed those posts that clearly explained the problem.

Nothing can change that, and I've been on that end before too.

efuincarnate

Dry looting- is this looting a bag after a victim has fallen in combat, even though you have not been involved in the pvp?

If it is, seems like something completely legit for lower, where the streets are full of starving and struggleing folks, before the body hits the floor, they would be pulling off booots, cloaks and what not unless the killer begins protecting his kill "loot" which I have seen happen and lead to more pvp :twisted:

Dry looting is the taking of all of a characters stuff. It's not really an issue here because PvP is Permadeath. What the problem is with dry looting, is the fact that it would take some time to remove full plate, and bags and packs and items.

Ninjalooting is often used to describe the ability of a player to do so in seconds flat. Could I kill you in a back alley and loot you taking my time? Yes, provided i am alone/ unseen. Could I assassinate you in front of the town hall and dryloot you in seconds flat? No.

So, we must take care that any looting is resonable and responsible to avoid DM area consequences. In the assassination example, I may be able to grab a thing or two, but it's unlikely I could carry you off and dispose of you. The body still being there leaves a possibility of a raise and more RP as a result. Ninjalooting you is both unrealistic and severely handicaps your ability to play/ recover and would be in very bad form and likely result in OOC conflicts and DM area hassles. Always make sure your "fun" isn't at the expense of anothers!

Hope this helps.