I am a big promoter of conflict, especially interesting conflict. I would like to see more than just the typical bland "Kossuth vs Istishia" and "Bane vs Torm" and "Shar vs Selune" conflicts. I would like to see inter-religion conflict as well. It can be argued that the Forgotten Realm's already functions this way even though it is not readily apparent.

I think it would be more beneficial for EfU to take the focus more away from the gods and more toward the "church." A church is a collection of individuals who have rallied around a philosophical concept, to which a deity is likely tied.

The deities on EfU, unlike in cannon, are much less active in the lives of mortals. I actually like that as it gives the PC clerics the ability to throw their own spin on things, but sometimes that spin ends up putting you at odds with the establish views of the faith.

Cannon examples:

Cult of Shared Suffering: Ilmatari heretics of this cult believe that all mortals must share part of the Crying Gods' burden in order to understand his sacrifice. They are noted for self-flagellation, kidnappings, inciting riots, and passing the suffering around to nonbelievers. Cultists of Shared Suffering have access to the Healing, Retribution, Strength, and Suffering domains. They employ the favored weapon and weapon of the deity of Ilmater. Cleric believers in this heresy must be neutral.

Dark Moon Heresy: Dark Moon heretics teach that Selune and Shar are one and the same, two faces of the same goddess. Dark moon heretics have access to the Cavern, Darkness, Knowledge, Moon, Protection, and Travel domains and can use the favored weapon or weapon of the deity of either goddess. Cleric believers in this heresy must be lawful neutral, neutral, or chaotic neutral.

Risen Sun Heresy: The Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun has long existed within the church of Lathander, tolerated by other followers of the Morninglord and preaching that Lathander is the reincarnated form of Amaunator, Netherese god of the sun. Heretics of the Risen Sun take the Brotherhood's beliefs one step further into heresy, by preaching that the time of Lathander's transformation is nigh and Amaunator is about to be return. Risen Sun heretics have access to the Fire, Law, Nobility, Renewal, Sun, and Time domains. Their only option for a favored weapon is the light mace. They employ the weapon of the deity of Lathander. Cleric believers in this heresy must be lawful good or lawful neutral.

Three-Faced Sun Heresy: Heretics of the Three-Faced Sun believe that the sun is a tripartite overdeity, with aspects of dawn, highsun, and dusk. Like a spinning prism viewed from the side, believers in this heresy teach that only two of the three aspects can be "seen" at any time. (There are said to be brief instants in deific time when only one aspect is manifest.)

According to this heresy, during the Age of Netheril, Amaunator ruled as the aspect of highsun, while Jergal held the portfolio of dusk. After Amaunator faded away, Lathander appeared as the aspect of dawn, and Myrkul inherited the aspect of dusk. The Time of Troubles marked the fall of Myrkul and Lathanders brief moment of unchallenged dominance. Now, believers in the Three-Faced sun are heralding the rise of Amaunator. Some believers in this heresy suggest that Lathander will become the new aspect of highsun and another will take his place as the aspect of dawn, while others herald the rise of a new deity who is the aspect of highsun.

Believers in the Three-Faced Sun have access to Death, Law, Renewal, Sun, and Time domains. They use a light mace or a scythe as a favored weapon. Their weapon of the deity is a +1 flaming light mace or a +1 flaming scythe. Cleric believers in this heresy must be lawful neutral.

Sanctuary has been around 152 years, and lives in relative isolation with the rest of the world. It is somewhat hard to believe that overall, we have not seen some deities become twisted by heresy to fit the new surroundings. After all, not to knock a uber deity like Ubtao, but we just are not going to see any dinosaurs or jungles in the Underdark. The same goes for Lurue and her Unicorn fetish, there is little to no chance of seeing those either.

So what happens if a Cleric of Lurue comes down and basically decides – yeah, you know what? Unicorns rock and all, but rothe pwn them because they have two horns instead of one. Then he proceeds to replace her unicorn fetish with a rothe fetish.

I could see Ubtao eventually being twisted into a deity of the Underdark, having his portfolios disregarded and him favoring all types of Scalykind instead of just Dinosaurs. It could go a step further even and claim that Ibrandul is a lesser aspect of Ubtao and that they are in fact the same deity.

Or how about a Cleric of Bane making the pronouncement that there is a Sanctuary Trinity composed of three deities: Bane (who leads), Helm (who guards) and Hoar (who Judges). This could be a calculated move by the Banite to gain support from Helmites and Hoarains against the established Triad as well as an attempt to warp the other deities dogma to make it more in line with Bane and his ultimate goal.

However, at the end of the day, does it really matter? Just how much support do DM’s give to players who would prefer to play heretical clerics? Staying within the lines is fun, but it gets boring quickly unless you can take a deity and somehow make that deity your own.

I would very much like to see this. But i doubt it would happen, as currently religion is no deeper then "Hey, you worship llmater? So do i? Lets be friends!"

Yes, that is one of the problems I am trying to address with my suggestion.

My last character was Hoaradin Delorin, a Priest of Kossuth who was a heretic. He wasn't that far outside the mainstream, but he fully believed himself superior to all other priests of Kossuth. He believed he knew things that they did not, and he was in the process of coming up with "the truth".

As he searched for the truth, he found that it eluded him more than he had expected, and in the end he found himself doubting all of his beliefs, but remained strong and refused to renounce Kossuth even in death.

Putting spins on things as a cleric is very much appreciated by the DM team.

All you need to do is make sure that if you want to keep your spells, that you don't betray your clerical duties or stray from or overturn the dogma- stretching it is kind of cool, though, especially when it means more followers or an advancement of the faith in general.

As a Cleric of Lurue in the Underdark, a place mostly lacking in friendly intelligent beasts, I've been forced to focus more on the other aspects of Lurue's dogma. I try to keep in mind the spirit of the Unicorn, if not the Unicorn itself. The Underdark represents captivity, and so I do my best to encourage freedom. It represents depression and cruelty, so I go out of my way to raise spirits and show kindness. I act without warning, often without forethought, and do just what seems right at the time.

Sometimes, when a certain part of the dogma just doesn't fit, it's okay to let it take a backseat to something else. Mind you, if I see a talking rothe, I call it a sign from Lurue.

I'm willing to bet the problem with clerics is simply that most players do not preach when they play a cleric. They stick to the dogma, they fail to consider heresies.

Often, they won't even know heresies.

Furthermore, and all too often, people decide, "Oh, you're a cleric of Loviatar? You must be evil and seek to hurt and kill us adventurers." Rather than, "Oh, a cleric of Loviatar? Please intercede and protect us from your Mistresses' painful afflictions, thank you for standing between us and your angry goddess." Which hurts for people playing evil gods.

Clerics are often the best, but toughest characters to play. I would challenge anyone who feels that Clerics are not played well here to create your own and show people how it could be done.

I do not mean this in a negative way at all. If you feel, for instance, that the Clerics of Lovitar are not doing the Deity justice. Create one to lead them on the right path...

-Kalos

I just picked a deity at random, I could have used Trom I suppose or Bale.

There is not appropriate Evil Deity representation, to build off Oro's point.

Evil Deity Cleric are treated like villains, which is fine, but also they're not shown any respect that I've seen.

They aren't seen as "SAVE ME FROM YOUR DEITIES WRATH", At all, but as "WOLOL GUY WHO WORKS 4 EVIL, C'MON GUYS, LETS CALL HIM CLEVER NAMES LIKE "SCUM" AND "FILTH" THEN HARASS HIM".

Not exactly sure how to change it, but People treat them as just another evil goon, rather than a divinely infused mortal with god-like power.

That sorta thing should garner a bit more respect in a polytheistic culture, I don't care who you are.

A Paladin of Tr0m may never, ever, ever, ever, offer Prayer to Bane, But if he was about to wade into a den of spiders, maybe a prayer to Talona to keep him or his allies free of their poison, or Corellon even to keep him safe from the spiders of Lloth.

People treat it like "IF YOU ARE GOOD, ALL OTHER GODS = FOES AND MUST BE SMOTEN".

Evil clerics, given there are always exceptions, may even make prayer to Torm if they are purging corruption from their followers who betrayed them, I'd reckon.

Deities have portfolios of almost everything a living person would need. To shut off half of the portfolio's in the world because you're a good guy seems something that is grossly misusing RP.

Talos spare me from the storm. Umberlee from the waves. Azuth from the cold.

Tymora give me luck. beshaba spare me from your bad luck.

Ilmater help me. The watchmen hunting me are rutheless and I've been walking 14 miles on a broken leg.

Etc.

I can't see a paladin praying to Talona ever, or anyone not of his god unless seriously pressed. I mean, he's essentially the representative of a single god on Toril.

On the other hand, yes, I don't think people should run around calling the chosen agent of any god a "scum bag boot-licker".

I know that when I DM'ed elsewhere, someone use to mock the priest of Talos in the open market square during a rain storm.

150 points of electrical damage later, he decided that it was a bad idea to mock Talos' priests.

Same for the other gods, they are present, and they do hear it when you speak their names. Occasionally evidence of their attention to their priests can go a long way when people are not giving the gods any true respect.

Necromancers teasing the priest of Lathander because they know he won't smite them in front of the city Watch? Shoot rays of light out of his eyes that strike the necromancer's blind. Priest of Bane being told he's "a cowardly rubbish", I'd love to see a black burst of light around the insulter who immediately is affected by a Fear spell and runs off screaming.

Not always, but once in awhile a god will remind people, I AM HERE.

Tyr occasionaly shows up at judgings and just watches to make sure no corruptions up as an Avatar. The Gods really do have at least a slightly interactive means of going about their things, even if they normally let their Clerics deal with it.

While we've all heard stories of the Ilmaterian who gladly accepted death to protect his people and was bathed in white light before his death and the furious Kossuthian becoming bathed in flame, it'd be nice to see a few smaller things, just to show the Gods care.

Seriously...an avatar here or there, or a smiting like Oro mentioned would add some reason for some to not run their mouths so much sometimes. More divine intervention plz. XD

An avatar of Torm the True showed up in the tunnels beneath Lower once.

Well, I'd not say anything about avatars showing up, but subtle yet unmistakable manifestations of a deity's wrath.

An actual avatar of a deity has shown up only twice in the history of EfU (both incidents within five minutes of each other), and I am not at all inclined to have it happen more often.

Players/mortal PCs can easily mistake celestial servants or powerful beings as actual avatars, when it couldn't be further from the case.

I think in this case, Howl, it's more of a misuse of the word avatar, than a mistake in what the creature was.

What you said is still true, though.

Sorry I wasn't around to respond this weekend, but I wanted to see what people had to say when I came back. We seem to have gotten a bit off track.

First, yes I am definitely in support of the deities providing their priests with more 'obvious' support. Too many people, both those who PLAY clerics and those who RP WITH clerics, seem to treat them like wizards in plate armor.

A case in point - I played a follower of Bane and was forced to routinely watch as our priests became surrounded by PC's who insulted Bane (the deity, not the priests) in an attempt to get a rise out of the priests. If the Banites had responded with violence, the Watch which is currently (then and now) filled with Paladin's and Paladin sympathizers, would have gleefully stoned them. So the end result was Banites trying to act in a way that was befitting of Bane, without actually breaking the law. It actually made some of us OOCly angry that we seemed to be boxed in - the only appropriate responses would have resulted in our deaths.

It's times like those that I experienced, where I think it is best for the god being insulted to manifest his or her power in some way. To remind people that they DO exist, and that there ARE consequences to their words and actions. His followers hands may be tied but his are not.

------------------

However, more to the topic of the thread - heresies. My main point was basically this: EfU is not set up to handle heretical clerics. I presented some canonical examples of heresies, and EfU simply can't handle them. For example the Dark Moon Heresy is a Heresy that could never exist on EfU because of the way alignment and domain restrictions are handled.

My suggestion basically entails the following:

When a PC wishes to play a heretical cleric that strays significantly enough away from the dogma that there are alignment and domain modifications required, they must send in an application. The DM's will then evaluate the heresy and then determine if it's setting appropriate (for both EfU and FR).

For example, it could be interesting to have a heresy involving the Cult of Ascension - with them claiming that Fredrick Bresley was a divine aspect of Lathander, that came to Sanctuary to lead it's people back to see the sun. Instead of Lathander, though, they place "Ascension Heresy" in the domain field, and select the appropriate domains. That then allows the Cult of Ascension to have heretical priests.

Meldread

A case in point - I played a follower of Bane and was forced to routinely watch as our priests became surrounded by PC's who insulted Bane (the deity, not the priests) in an attempt to get a rise out of the priests. If the Banites had responded with violence, the Watch which is currently (then and now) filled with Paladin's and Paladin sympathizers, would have gleefully stoned them. So the end result was Banites trying to act in a way that was befitting of Bane, without actually breaking the law. It actually made some of us OOCly angry that we seemed to be boxed in - the only appropriate responses would have resulted in our deaths.

There are places on this server where the message of bane might be received more openly... Or at least you won't face instant death if you attack someone for insulting your god.

You box yourself in by assuming the only place to preach is Upper. Preach to people who will listen... Not the ones who hate the words you speak.

What? No. Onna. No.

Its not about will people listen- its about showing them they have to. Thats the whole point. Banes chosen stepped down and starts talking- throwing fruit at him is going to piss off a tyrant incarnation right good. Keep doing it- and something better happen- on the part of the banite or Bane himself.

I would be more in favor of seeing bane step down at the trial and bitch slap them, promising to unleash his rage if he wasnt given respect. There is a reason they are GODS.

Now- mind you. Clerics better earn this right. OR they are weak ends that no tyrant wants supporting them.

(I'd prefer to see things as I described them elsewhere, but knowing that wont slide since we have to stick to canon even when its less productive, The other extreme would be needed as an alternative. )

There is a difference to denying a god and slandering one. Push hard enough and I'm sure you'll find out. ________________

Still this is off topic. That fact remains that heresy seems to matter little since the name of the deity gives everyone everything they ever wanted to know about you. Heresy's are just weird. I don't get why some could exist when you either represent a deity or you don't, I don't care either way- but eh... Deities suck.

Change them however you want!

Ebok What? No. Onna. No.

I was specifically referring to the part where they felt they could do nothing in Upper due to the presence of the Watch.

People tend to get the mindset of ... well I can't attack because I'll just die. Well, that's kinda obvious. If you're going to do something people don't like you'd better be able to back it up. A true follower of a tyrant god should -be- a tyrant over some section of followers. He should seek out the people he can dominate and bend them to his will. If people don't -have- to listen, they won't. And nobody has to listen while in Upper because... well they're safe from repercussion. There.

Got a little banite who's being picked on? Go get some followers. Get people to help you -show- people just how wrong they are. Prove to them how -weak- they are. No, a tyrant isn't going to sit there and let someone badmouth them or their god... But that doesn't mean pulling a weapon instantly and bashing them across the head. Playing evil takes some Finesse. Someone else on these boards said it best, and I don't recall whom now... but it was something along the lines of "An evil person does not believe themselves to be evil". They do what they feel is right in order to achieve their goals.

Hitler is a perfect example of this... He ordered the deaths of... how many people? Do you think he lost any sleep over this? I severely doubt it. He's evil in the eyes of a society that believes genocide is wrong. He's not evil in the eyes of a society who believes the Jews were an inferior race. He didn't wake up and say, "gee what evil things can I do today?" He just did what he felt was the best thing for his country and people. He was nominated Time man of the year for a reason... He did a lot of good for Germany. He just ended up going a little overboard and couldn't sustain the empire he had carved.

Blah, now I'm ranting about good vs evil again...

My whole point is this I guess... Don't give up just because a few people don't like what you're doing. Get revenge and do so intelligently. Whipping out a sword and cleaving someone is the FR equivalent of a gangsta thug busting out his piece and shooting someone in the middle of the street where everyone can see... and then wondering why he's been thrown in jail and faces the death penalty. It's stupid. Be the gangster boss, not the thug. Be hitler, not the troops on the ground. Unless you like playing 'evil' characters who die quickly.

Right Oona, but I do not think that is what Meldread meant either. The whole point he has been trying to make is that deities are real and one should not treat them lightly even if they disdain the cleric. Otherwise you are spot on for finding the opportune time and place for revenge.

Well, that is the way for a rogue, a fighter, a mage, a monk to spread their evil and revenge. What is the possibility that a cleric might be different, they do have the ear of a god(dess), right?

Point of deity intervention: big or small 1. As the standard PC is not awestruck by a Heal spell, Protection from Evil, or a Light spell, what can be done to provide the feeling that a cleric is not just a mage with armor and different spells? 2. If you are doing something interesting, including many people, intrigue a DM or two, I am sure that a request might provide results for some sign or omen.

I personally do not believe the DM team has time to spend being every clerics "omen boy" so we best just hope that people show respect to a cleric for the faith if not the profession. Actually it surprises the snot out of me when a DM is present and responds to something I say to an NPC let alone turn someone's ear to stone for making fun of Grumbar - now there is a serious hit to one's listen skill.

Heresy If you can app for a drow and get approval, I am not sure why a good app for a heretic would not work. It would make it interesting for the few, hard to say how many, who find that religion and clerics spice up the show. Of course for the portion of the server who sees them as mages with boring speeches, the effort would be lost.

And lets remember that Loviatar followers are so cool. Now where did I put my new whip?

Right Oona, but I do not think that is what Meldread meant either. The whole point he has been trying to make is that deities are real and one should not treat them lightly even if they disdain the cleric. Otherwise you are spot on for finding the opportune time and place for revenge.

Oddly, that is the same point I'm trying to make as far as deities go. This is a polytheistic culture. No human should be saying stupid things about a human deity. They were raised to respect the gods and pray to each in turn for what they need. I could maybe see some hatred of an elf deity coming from a human, or vice versa... But for any human to be making dispariging remarks against their own deities... is just silly.

But this isn't something that the DMs can really police. This comes strictly from a lack of understanding of what a polytheistic religion is. Truthfully, very few of us have experienced being raised in a polytheistic religion. Instead we try to dress it up like a whole basket full of monotheistic religions all trying to coexist. Why? Because we understand polytheism. Most of us were born and raised with it, so we try to fit all other religion into that mold.

Because we understand polytheism. Most of us were born and raised with it, so we try to fit all other religion into that mold.

Was supposed to read "Because we understand MONOTHEISM"

Boo for getting logged out mid post and being unable to edit.

I guess I am just not particularly enthusiastic about having a deity actively getting involved in the day to day to lives of mortals living in a hole seven miles beneath the surface. I suppose it's possible we deviate from canon FR in that.

Well that's not really what this thread is about anyway. It's about deviating from established canonical lore to create heresies that are either interesting or more accurately reflect the lives of those living in Sanctuary.

Aside from the obvious, some faiths simply do not make sense within the Underdark and especially within Sanctuary. Some people, especially those living here for any extended period of time, will inevitably alter those faiths to better suit their lives.

A Lathanderite, for example, will -never- see the rising sun again. The dawn is an important part of the religion because it symbolizes the other things he also represents.

----

As things stand we can already worship dead deities, which is also possible canonically through taking a feat. Playing a heretical cleric is similar, in that it is completely possible requiring you to take a feat. What I am putting forward here is both a question and a suggestion: Is it possible to create a heretical cleric? If so, do you need DM approval? If not, then why not, and if it is something the DM Staff here are interested in what steps should be taken to make it a reality?

Meldread As things stand we can already worship dead deities, which is also possible canonically through taking a feat. Playing a heretical cleric is similar, in that it is completely possible requiring you to take a feat. What I am putting forward here is both a question and a suggestion: Is it possible to create a heretical cleric? If so, do you need DM approval? If not, then why not, and if it is something the DM Staff here are interested in what steps should be taken to make it a reality?

This is an interesting question to me. I would argue that Clerics and Druids are by far the most powerful character classes, and I think many will agree this is not a revolutionary statement. Personally, I do not like it when some characters have a seemingly unfair advantage, so I asked myself why they were made this way.

The conclusion I came to was that these people have to be polarized in their beliefs to maintain their powers, and cannot adapt to survive as other people can when the situation calls for it without losing everything. Therefore, it is fair that they are more powerful, because they will have to make the most enemies and fight the most battles in order to maintain that power.

When you make your own standards for your character's faith as a player, your character cannot be incorrect in what they do. This is not to say that you couldn't have a heretical cleric that held true to a belief that put them in conflict with others, its just that there's a great deal more opportunity to do away with the one true weakness of these two classes.

I am sure that having an app process for such characters would help immensely, but to effectively gauge whether or not a character is living up to their beliefs, the DMs would have to either memorize everything about that character or keep going back to where the information is stored. In the end, if they attempted to give the person in question spell failure, it would undoubtedly be the result of the DM's misundering what their beliefs are rather than a failing of the player.

Of course, my argument is contingent on the fact that the DMs agree clerics and druids should be judged a bit more harshly than other characters.

Meldread As things stand we can already worship dead deities, which is also possible canonically through taking a feat. Playing a heretical cleric is similar, in that it is completely possible requiring you to take a feat. What I am putting forward here is both a question and a suggestion: Is it possible to create a heretical cleric? If so, do you need DM approval? If not, then why not, and if it is something the DM Staff here are interested in what steps should be taken to make it a reality?

You can make a heretical cleric if you like. No application is needed, though if you have some plot you want to give us a heads up with that's always welcome. The moment you stray too far from the dogma though, or fail in your duties as a cleric, you will get spell failure. There's not too much else to say!

Howland I guess I am just not particularly enthusiastic about having a deity actively getting involved in the day to day to lives of mortals living in a hole seven miles beneath the surface. I suppose it's possible we deviate from canon FR in that.

The surface deities are not at all well represented in the Underdark because each race native to this "hole" has their own pantheon or own deity. Shar is the only deity who has a substantial following on the surface whose followers you'd expect to bump into, sooner or later, in the Underdark. So, I'd imagine quite a few deities would be excited at their dogma being preached in a place where they've never before had a following!

Lathander would almost certainly be personally aware of the Seekers, who exemplify him in almost everything they do and aim for. Cyric's faithful find unparallelled opportunities for murder and mayhem in a place like the Underdark. Malar's followers find more powerful and exotic prey to hunt in the Underdark than anywhere else on Faerûn. Mycopolis must be one of the only places in the whole Underdark where nature deities from the surface have a notable and active following! Shevarash should be verily drooling at the prospects offered by a good number of surface elves living so close to the drow.

I'm sure more examples can be thought of. I'm just saying that Sanctuary must be a rather unique place in the Underdark also regarding the religions of Faerûn!

I'm sure plenty of prayers go unanswered in the Drow slave pens of the Underdark. ;)

I'm sure too, but the town of Sanctuary isn't one of those slave pens. (Unless you ask the Seekers, of course!)

I'm not sure where EfU stands on Heretics, but what Meldread said is completely opposite to what MadCaddies said.

Those people who believe Sune and Selune are one, would be instantly thrown out the church by either one of them. But they still get spells. I assume, in EfU, this would be rejects, asit's deviating from both the goddesses' wills completely, in the same way that a Cleric of good in general does not exist.

However, I think Meldread's more just trying to get a straight reply on if you can hope to make a member of these heretics and still be a cleric, despite worshipping something completely different from your deity's dogma, and I'd be quite interested in an answer too!

MadCaddies

Meldread As things stand we can already worship dead deities, which is also possible canonically through taking a feat. Playing a heretical cleric is similar, in that it is completely possible requiring you to take a feat. What I am putting forward here is both a question and a suggestion: Is it possible to create a heretical cleric? If so, do you need DM approval? If not, then why not, and if it is something the DM Staff here are interested in what steps should be taken to make it a reality?

You can make a heretical cleric if you like. No application is needed, though if you have some plot you want to give us a heads up with that's always welcome. The moment you stray too far from the dogma though, or fail in your duties as a cleric, you will get spell failure. There's not too much else to say!

I also must point out, that this invalidates a number of heretical religions in the Realms, whose clerics DO get spells.

I've never gone to the effot of compiling a list, but some are floating around out there. Ilmater and Helm come most readily to mind. Often what really happens is the individual's spells are granted by an enemy of the god the character believes to be worshipping.

Sometimes though, no one knows for sure if the god himself isn't granted spells to the heretic. This is true of at least one of Lathander's heretical followings, rumor has it that Lathander isn't even sure the heretics are truly wrong.

However, I think Meldread's more just trying to get a straight reply on if you can hope to make a member of these heretics and still be a cleric, despite worshipping something completely different from your deity's dogma, and I'd be quite interested in an answer too!

I already answered that, I thought! You can't.