Having recently come off a character who specialized in parry, I have to say it is useless in PvP. I had max rank in it, skill focus, imp parry, and +3 parry cloak + a +5 parry sword + a +5 parry gloves, and a very high dex, but still people one level below me with a great axe could cut me into so many little pieces that I had to wonder if even the subdue mode could justify servivng being pwnt that bad. The reason was that, while i parryed quite a few attacks, I made few reposite attacks and on those rarely hit more then 2 or 3 damage.

Now, In Highschool, I was in the fencing club. When someone striked at you, if you knocked the attack off, they are thrown off ballence, their blade forced away from their body, their mind not processing that fact they missed, and their body defenceless. This leave them in a duelests nightmare. If with a real blade, their heart is exposed, their off ballence, they are screwed. So, I reccomend that parry mode, when activated, gives bonuses to doge ac, att, dmg, or things like that. So fencers and Duelests can be RP-able.

Just an idea though.

It's a shame there isn't a duelist prestige class in NWN

parry has been broken since nwn was released and was never demmed fixable by bioware. hope this helps

We've had several successful parriers in EfU's time. If you don't want to do crap damage, invest in Strength and don't use a rapier. In regards to your scenario, you're only "screwed," as you put it, if your opponent can grieviously wound you following a parry. That isn't often the case.

nothx

Yes, something should be done to fix parry. As it stands it isn't worth the skill points. I would love to play a defensive duelist type of character but parry is crap.

Here is how parry works:

When a character enters into Parry Mode he can do nothing but stand there and wait for an attack. His mind is honed on two things: Defense and Counterattack. The benefit of Parry is largely negated against multiple opponents.

To check to see if a blow is successfully parried a check is made against the modified attack roll of the incoming blow. If successful, it means the attack does not damage the parrying character. However, a character may only parry a number of attacks per round equal to the number of attacks per round available to the character. Unfortunately, a parry can only deflect the first attack in each of the three flurries in a round (for example, parrying an opponent with five attacks per round will only attempt to block the first, third, and fifth attacks). Furthermore, counterattacks are included in the number of attacks that may be deflected (for example, a successful parry and a riposte use two of the three attacks per round limit) which further reduces the effectiveness of the skill.

Additionally, ripostes are made with the character's normal (descending) attack bonus, not at the full bonus each time. For example, if a character has an attack schedule of +7/+4 and successfully reposts two attacks, the riposte attacks will be at +7 and then +4 each time.

Finally, wearing armor greatly reduces the effectiveness of parry, meaning that it is designed to be used with lightly armored characters.

----

Here are my suggested changes:

When a character enters into parry mode he is effectively entering into a deffensive state of mind. For every 5 points in parry the character gains +2 Dodge AC which stacks with Tumble AC. With the Dodge AC in effect the skill should no longer check to see if a parry is successful or not. If it bypasses the AC then it is successful, and if it does not then it is not successful.

Counterattack should remain as it functions currently, though through playtesting it may be wise to see if the DC needs to be raised or lowered.

Ideally, you aren't going to be killing people in parry mode, you are just holding them at bay. It works similar to Improved Expertise, granting the same amount of AC with 20 points in Parry (obtained through leveling up, feats, and items) and 10 in Tumble.

Meldread The benefit of Parry is largely negated against multiple opponents.

Meldread Finally, wearing armor greatly reduces the effectiveness of parry, meaning that it is designed to be used with lightly armored characters.

Snoteye-

I'd like to see you attempt to parry more than one opponent at any given time. It's not exactly easy!

Of course not. I was not suggesting that you should be able to, so we are in agreement. However, what I am saying is that you are entering into a defensive state of mind. It is not unlike Improved Expertise which you cannot use (thankfully) while in Parry Mode. Someone who is skilled at parrying should ideally be able to perform just as well as that fighter in full plate, with the tower shield who switches on improved expertise. (Although in truth even with my suggested changes the fighter has the advantage. I'll explain why if I need too.)

Yes? Heavy armor is heavy. It reduces mobility. To parry successfully, you need mobility.

Expertise and Imp. Expertise are far superior to parry. I wish this wasn't so, but even in one-on-one tournament battle, this just doesn't seem to ever work...

NWN really screwed this one up, I think. (are you surprised?)

I have to say, I'm not really sure what the problem is. Parry != Expertise. It was never meant to. Meldread's suggestions would make Parry the dumb man's Expertise.

Yes, I'll agree that the riposte attack shouldn't count against total attacks/round, but I don't think Parry is "screwed up" at all. It's just very difficult to use effectively compared to Expertise, although I can tell you that I've used it to great effect myself in the OCs.

Expertise is widely regarded as superior to Parry because it's a universal AC increase as opposed to an abstract AC increase against only one opponent, and that means a lot when you often fight multiple opponents. Generally, versatility wins.

My suggestion doesn't make Parry the "dumb man's" Expertise. :P

I agree that it still might need another boot to make it more beneficial than Improved Expertise. Frankly, that is the way it SHOULD BE considering to get Parry to rank 20 by level 8 (without the aid of items) you need to max it out with skill points, have 14 Dex, and take two feats (Improved Parry and Skill Focus). Not to mention to qualify for Improved Parry (13 Int) you have also qualified yourself for Improved Expertise.

This might be accomplished by lowering the DC to riposte down to five DC greater than the attackers roll, and allowing the parrying individual unlimited chances to counterstrike. In other words, if your attacker has three attacks and you only have one, you have three chances to riposte instead of just one. In effect this allows you to use your opponents strength against him... however I am not sure how balanced or how well this would work against multiple opponents. (It might be too powerful.) If it can be scripted to increase the DC by two for every extra attacker then it should balance out pretty well I think.

Maybe parry was just, I dunno, meant to work in 1vs1 gentlemen style duel things only.

I'd like to see you attempt to parry more than one opponent at any given time. It's not exactly easy!

That's not exactly a good argument here as I would like to see anyone here throw a fireball, switch from wielding a great axe to sword + shield then back to a great axe while in full melee, and don't even get me started on changing forms...

The pont of this argument is, Parry is broken. When I was new to NWN, I loved the idea of creating a monk with a cranked up Parry who could not be touched and only attacked when he saw an opening in his opponents defenses (and if you think a fantasy character can't Parry multiple opponents then you obviously haven't seen any good "Kung-Fu" movies). After getting severely beaten-down with that character I had to move on...

Any "fix" to Parry would be welcome since as it stands right now I do not see it being worth the skill points.

-Kalos

Parry = Skill

Expertise = Feat

Generally combat feats should be somewhat better than combat skills overall in my opinion. Parry is just fine, honestly parry was never meant to be super special amazing ultra expertise mode + counter attack. Its what it is, its not an amazing skill no, is it meant to be? Certainly not.

As for

(and if you think a fantasy character can't Parry multiple opponents then you obviously haven't seen any good "Kung-Fu" movies)

Thats not parry. Thats expertise or improved expertise, fighting defensively while still striking at opponents. (Also I would'nt compare D&D fantasy to Kung-Fu movies really)

Anyway basically Parry does exactly what it says it does, its as much worth the skill points as Bluff, Persuade, Intimidate, Craft X or any of those skills that have very circumstantial uses.

Anyway moral of the story is, just because something isn't good in alot of situations does'nt mean its broken.

Kalos That's not exactly a good argument here as I would like to see anyone here throw a fireball, switch from wielding a great axe to sword + shield then back to a great axe while in full melee, and don't even get me started on changing forms...

Kalos The pont of this argument is, Parry is broken.

Kalos When I was new to NWN, I loved the idea of creating a monk with a cranked up Parry who could not be touched and only attacked when he saw an opening in his opponents defenses (and if you think a fantasy character can't Parry multiple opponents then you obviously haven't seen any good "Kung-Fu" movies).

Kalos ...as it stands right now I do not see it being worth the skill points.

Snoteye

So don't take it. I feel the same about the Craft skills.

SO you agree then. It is broken, isnt it? Parry is meant to represent a whole meriod of ideas. Ranging from nobles to duelests. On my duelest character, i quickly discovered that dueling anyone anyware near my level was a guerinteed loss. I wore no armor, but also every item in the game thet gave bonus to parry, and was attempting to be the overnoble duelest. I was pwnt so often that my character had to give up dueling for reputation sake.

Im not saying make parry Uber. Im just saying make it match on 1v1. anyway, parry is useless without imp parry, and imp parry required 13 int, something not many fighters have, so people would have to try to make a character good at it, and it would be hard to exploit.

Anonymous

Snoteye

So don't take it. I feel the same about the Craft skills.

SO you agree then. It is broken, isnt it? Parry is meant to represent a whole meriod of ideas. Ranging from nobles to duelests. On my duelest character, i quickly discovered that dueling anyone anyware near my level was a guerinteed loss. I wore no armor, but also every item in the game thet gave bonus to parry, and was attempting to be the overnoble duelest. I was pwnt so often that my character had to give up dueling for reputation sake.

Im not saying make parry Uber. Im just saying make it match on 1v1. anyway, parry is useless without imp parry, and imp parry required 13 int, something not many fighters have, so people would have to try to make a character good at it, and it would be hard to exploit.

That was me. >.<

Sorry.

So... because we have magic, we should be able to easily engage multiple opponents in sword fights, using tactics meant for one on one duels, without penalization, and not get scratched? That's not exactly a very good counter argument.

Why is it assumed that Parry should only be good one on one? I mean if you feel that my "Kung-Fu" analogy didn't work what about Zorro? That guy parries no less than 4 other swordsman at once! ;)

-Kalos

Kalos

So... because we have magic, we should be able to easily engage multiple opponents in sword fights, using tactics meant for one on one duels, without penalization, and not get scratched? That's not exactly a very good counter argument.

Why is it assumed that Parry should only be good one on one? I mean if you feel that my "Kung-Fu" analogy didn't work what about Zorro? That guy parries no less than 4 other swordsman at once! ;)

-Kalos

He does. But zorro has persistant haste on the first letter of his name.

Because Zorro doesn't know magic.

I am amused by how passionately this hard-coded, impossible-to-edit combat mode is being discussed.

Wern8 lost to a parry based barbarian 2 levels lower then him in PvP. ololz.

Parry's fairly useless though.

My charecter Merle uses parry and i have to say that the skill is great ill admit she dosent usually put out that much damage but it takes forever for an opponent to hit her. Now she wont win many fights it does let her hold someone off till help can arrive.

I am amused by how passionately this hard-coded, impossible-to-edit combat mode is being discussed.

Damn it. :( I thought it could be changed similarly to how Tumble was changed on EfU. Oh well. My advice to people will remain the same: Forget about Parry and go for Improved Expertise, and if you have your heart set on being a real Parrier just emote it while in Improved Expertise Mode. Then use the skill points on something useful, like UMD or Listen.

I kinda like the way parry works actually. Its not very powerful at all, but its not meant to be. As Dilandau says it can hold off a single opponent until help arrives (with sufficient ranks of course).

With the equipment available IG like that described by Hammerfist I have seen characters with skill bonuses approaching (possibly exceeding) 40. (Anyone remember what Presea's parry was?). That is effectively unhittable against a single opponent, which is pretty darn useful.

Take the fact that your riposte is made at your full attack bonus, compared to the -10 of improved expertise, and you can really see a difference. Expertise is generally going to be more useful and more powerful, I don't dispute that. But I think that Parry has a niche: specifically fighting against a single opponent.

Erglion,

Yes, it can be vaguely useful against a single opponent, if you put ranks in the skill, take two feats, and build your entire character around it including their equipment choices.

However, if your goal is to reduce the chances of being hit in combat, all you have to do is take two feats to get +10 AC that stacks with everything. Additionally, you can move in against ranged attackers and not just stand there like an idiot.

Frankly, anyone with high parry can be beaten simply by walking away and using a ranged weapon. If they try and close in, switch back to your melee weapon and attack them. If they go back into parry mode, then repeat. (Of course, this is assuming that they can actually effectively stand against you in parry mode to begin with, which unless you've built your entire character around it, including equipment choices, they can't.)

Improved Expertise by contrast, allows noticeable benefits, against an endless number of opponents, both ranged and melee, without the use of skill points. All that it requires is two feats which you already qualify for if you intended to take Improved Parry. It requires no build adjustment at all, and frees up skill points that you can use on more useful skills. There is absolutely no trade off at all.

I really hate Parry. At least Craft Armor and Social Skills have RP benefit. Parry has nothing.

Imagine two parry builds fighting eachother. Wa-wa-waaaaaaa.

Aie! Aie! Aie!

All my Tribe of The Blade doggs know what's up.

Damn it. I thought it could be changed similarly to how Tumble was changed on EfU.

Now I am lost. What changes has Tumble gone through?

-Kalos

not sure were getting the idea that you need feats to be good at Parry Merle dosent have any yet her Parry is in the 30's Also i think you'll find that with expertise just like parry if you move you automaticly exit it so the fall back and shooting plan works against that as well.

Yeah... You really don't need the feats if you spend the skill points. +4 from Improved Parry and +3 from skill focus isn't a whole lot if you can get your skill into the 30's or more without them.

Besides, if a DM notices you being a parry fighter, they're probably going to help you out.

Kalos SO you agree then. It is broken, isnt it?

Snoteye

Kalos The pont of this argument is, Parry is broken.

See Naga's reply.

[Cough]

Oh and on another note. My warrior faught against a duelist, at the time I think I was level 8(purely fighter so high attack bonus) and he was level 7 he parried everything except critical hits. I just barely won.

Weapon size however counts. Its alot harder to parry a large weapon witha tiny weapon etc. Anyway its still useful in 1vs1 I'm geussing your just not using it to the effect it can actually be used.

I've played -1- parry character before. I regretted, severely. Parry is useful for holding off -1- person. Expertise is useful for holding off hoards. Parry useful only when your parry ranks exceed 15. Expertise...Do I need to say anything?

I should point out that ive played both expertise and parry dependant charecters before and they both have there own advantages and disadvantages.

Also i think you'll find that with expertise just like parry if you move you automaticly exit it so the fall back and shooting plan works against that as well.

Actually, it doesn't. While you do exit, you can stand still while in Improved Expertise mode and still get the bonus AC. Additionally, you can follow someone around with Improved Expertise mode activated so long as you don't step outside of combat. Your character will automatically follow them and try to attack them. Also if the ranged weapon user tries to use a ranged weapon in close combat, they are going to be in trouble unless they have the Feat Point Blank Shot.

game mechanics aside, the pistol was not the only reason armored warriors faded out of the scene in Earth history. The rapier and sabre being used by an unarmored fighter were often able to artfully dispatch the slow moving, heavy weapon swinging types.

The sword and shield fighters with moderate weight armor were often able to hold their position, however usually with a spearman at their flank to hold off fast moving attacks. Without that, the fast moving and clever swordsman could quickly outflank most armored fighters and slide the blade into a weak point. After all, even plate armor has many joints which a thin blade can easily penetrate.

What does this mean? NWN has issues but its all we got.

Oona

Besides, if a DM notices you being a parry fighter, they're probably going to help you out.

Really?

I mean, I figure if you have a well thought out, thoroughly RPed parry-using character thats one thing, but couldn’t that be said about all well thought out, thoroughly RPed characters? Or do the DMs really just enjoy seeing parry? Or rather is it the DMs like seeing unique takes on the NWN system and parry is one of them? I too have long liked the idea of some sort of dashing swordsman character using parry, but that skill choice has been pretty much impossible to use or justify to any degree. Also, I know almost nothing about impressing DMs :(

Tumble has been "modified" to not provide certain AC bonuses when you equip certain weights of armor, I think. This is calculated and applied when armor is equipped and characters levelup. It's an action that signals an event to which we can script a response.

In other news: Meldread|Exploiter, I'm watching you.

It's an exploit to use ranged weapons against people who parry? >_>

Dexterity fighters can massively outclass full plate fighter in ac. As for monks it gets obscene at later levels the amount of ac they can get.. whereas a full plate/tower shield fighter will never breach 45-55 ac with full epic access.

However, we work and play within the bounds of a restricted level bracket.

Yes, but for instance... a wizard/fighter based on dex. Bear with me here. Can cast shield, have 18 dex, use a tower shield, wear a chain shirt, and with a few rogue levels aim for some monk boots in addition to amulets of natural armor and rings of protection. That's 30ish+ ac there, and I'm sure there are additional things I'm not thinking of.

and now i have my next great concept! (not so great)

the end

For a parry character you shouldn't expect to be doing over much damage, and the parry system is kinda complicated/awsome the way NWN did it. It parries every other attack, you have to beat their AB with your skill level to get a chance for reposite attack. If you beat their AB with your parry roll then you roll your AB against their AC just like they did for you. You can only parry one opponent at a time, and if I an not confused if you switch opponents you also loose that round off your combat rolls like when normally switching targets. My advice would be to get parry as high as possible, use the feats for plus 7, invest skill points in it, and use any items you can find for it, put everything you can into it!Remember you have to beat their attack +1d20 by 10 with your parry counter roll! But you also have to worry about your attack bonus to make sure you can hit them after you get your succesful parry. I'd suggest making a fighter that is high in strength and in dexterity. Strength to put some punch behind your attacks, to save you the feat weapon finesse, and the Dexterity to add onto your parry skill, and to give you higher armor. Id suggest using a Chain Shirt or Scale Mail with a large sheild and rapier. Chain or Scale because they give you the plus 4 AC your looking for while only taking away 2 from your parry check. The large sheild because its adding 2 onto your AC and only taking away 2 from your check, a tower sheild adds on 3 but takes away 10.

Too bad you have to dual wield to not die to level 6 fighters, so forget that shield right there and then.

What would duel weilding give you? For duel weilding you exchance two feats, 2 AC (plain large shield), and 2 AB for one attack and 2 more parry. If your under level 6 and going toe to toe with a figher then your in trouble anyways, but if your 6 then you should be fine, unless your a rogue or something trying to outhit a figher.