Right so.

This is a big new thing to get banned for in IRC for talking about, so I thought I'd bring it to the forums so a bit of civility could be kept.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANY CHARACTER IN PARTICULAR. OR ANYONE AT ALL. THIS IS SIMPLY A QUESTION.

Why fighter 4, paladin X?

Why not Fighter 3?

A big, angry, discussion was thrown around in IRC. But I think it is something that needs to be discussed.

Its not elitist.

Its not pointed at anyone's direction.

Its just a question.

From the various sources I found, and was told of by PC's, a Fighter/Paladin is a paladin who goes out of his way to train for combat.

Cannonically, Lathander, Helm, Tyr, Moaradin are allowed to multiclass for Fighter/Paladin.

That however isn't the issue I wanted to talk about.

Why four?

A lot of people throw around "Weapon Spec"

Paladin/Fighter is a powerful, powerful class. Its become kinda like the new Fighter/rogue in the discussion circles.

The Paladin/Fighter is a powerful class, given that when mixed with Fighter levels, it is given will boost, smite evil, immunity to fear, and divine wands (Amongst other perks)

In the IC discussion, this point was made:

Conveniently everyone who begins as a warrior has a holy conversion when they hit level 4 and get weapon specialization.

Now, While I insist its just a trend, people still talk about the issues of multiclass.

And yes, We are just PC's, so we can't monitor -every single second of every single person's RP-

But alot of the server population finds it sketchy that its always 4 fighter, X paladin.

Now the DMs have said that there's no issue of multiclass rule breaches, but it is always 4 levels of fighter.

Does a paladin train to fight evil, but not so much he wants to take Five Levels?

Or does the paladin train to fight evil, and just doesn't find four level of fighter suitable?

Again, this isn't about any character. I am simply curious as to what has brought about the trend.

I've not seen pure paladins around much (I can name one, off hand), but I can't even count the amount of 4 fighter/Paladin X I can see.

What goes on that limits it to four?

One Level of paladin boosts it dramatically, but people would go "OMG THAT'S JUST ONE LEVEL OF PALADIN!"

Is it purely a "Weapon Specialization" trend? Do people really want that +2 damage?

Or is there something else I'm missing for the point of 4 levels of fighter?

I think you knew the answer to the question before you asked it!

Its the most mechanically optimal juncture to go to paladin. People will want to optimize their builds, which is fine.

Why ask why? 3. 4. 5. It really is moot, since it's the RP that matters in the end. People usually do numerical split builds for some advantage. If not, everyone would likely just even split all the time.

I'm fine with it.

As pointed out multiple times already, there is nothing wrong with multiclassing anything unless noted in our rules on the forums or otherwise.

I had a multi class similar to this, but it was paladin 4/fighter x. And it was for the reason you stated: focus on combat. He was in fact a Paladin of Tyr and so it fit that he wanted to learn more fighting techniques.

I had a longer post, deleted most of it as it was flame-ish.

Point is that as caddies said, yes there is a serious benefit for taking those levels that way.

I had a Fighter 4 / Paladin X before they were in vogue. :(

He was a fun character named Justin Ellard. I sent in an application because I wanted Justin to be sent on an epic quest at level four to earn his Paladinhood, but I never got a response back. He had an interesting back-story and everything. I think only Wern8 remembers him. :(

Back then Team Good sucked really bad, goblins and kobolds could roam the city freely, and in general evil was much more prevalent. I tried to find a DM who was willing to send him on an epic quest (with perma death possible) to achieve his Paladinhood, but I couldn't find one willing to do it. That combined with team goods general suckiness at the time I gave him up.

It's a shame because he had fun complexities. He struggled with his internal feelings and fears - he didn't want to become like his father (the Orc), and he worked hard to keep his emotions in check. At the same time he had to deal with society constantly judging him for looking so much like an Orc (I made him as Orcish looking as possible). He had a face that could scare little children, but a kind and compassionate heart and a wish to do good. He was quiet and reserved, but at the same time when the situation called for it he could step forward and take charge.

Errr... I've gone off track. Sorry.

The Fighter 4 / Paladin X combo doesn't bother me. It might be a little bit more powerful than the average paladin, but over all it's not powerful enough to break anything.

It should mostly only matter to players when it comes to PvP, and as general advise PvP comes down to lucky rolls and potions/wands. Paladins get to use divine wands, but thats no more unbalanced than a Fighter 4 / Rogue X who takes UMD. (Which I've also done!)

Well, if your going to multiclass fighter/pally your best to take 4 fighter or 4 pally first (the pally only if you have 14 wisdom) Since at level 4 pallys get their first spell.

This is also a silly post.

You go to four to get Weapon Specialization.

Just like you take a wizard level to get spells. You take a barbarian level to gain Rage. You take a rogue level for sneak attacks.

Same reason your wizards have 16 INT, your priests 16 WIS.

Honestly, RwG, I like you. You know this. I hope. Your post seems a tad bit haughty and aggressive.

It makes sense IC and OOC for a number of reasons.

It wasn't to point out ant "ZOMG BAN LEVEL 4 FIGHTER". That was ran into the ground in IRC already.

I was just trying to see if there was something I was missing. As a person who's notorious for sucking with builds and mechanics, I never thought Weapon Specialization was that impactive.

I appreciate the clarification, and appologize if it did come off as jackassy in any way. Re-reading it, it does look like that, sorry.

Thanks for the clarification.

And no, there's nothing wrong with optimizing builds. People who face countless spawns and such, -should- be optimized. That just makes sense. If you log in, knowing you're gonna face shit, you should be able to rock shit out.

Was just curious.

I do like pure paladins very much, for their spells, and have played two to level 6 or so. If you're going fighter multi-class yes 4 levels is optimal for weapon specialization. A level 1 paladin gets a slew of nice abilities, so the two mix very well. A 4 fighter/3 paladin does miss out on the coolest spell, deafening clang.

Am I really the only one that believes that builds should preferably take a back seat to the development of the hypothetical character in question?

Weapon specialization is +2 damage that multiplies on crit rwg. So basically its 2-8 possible extra damage which is quite impressive as is.

Also a fighter recieves feats every level until 5 where it gets no feats then gets two feats at six. So thats likely the mechanical side of it RWG.

Ah. Didn't know it Critted. Thanks.

MithrilDragon Am I really the only one that believes that builds should preferably take a back seat to the development of the hypothetical character in question?

MithrilDragon Am I really the only one that believes that builds should preferably take a back seat to the development of the hypothetical character in question?

I, for one, am finding it more and more difficult to make provocative and personally interesting characters in the FR setting and with NWN mechanics.

I think it would be a vastly interesting experiment to see what EfU players would do with a human-only, fixed level (perhaps eight or nine) PW.

Uh, yeah. Not on topic, but I have nothing to digress to... Carry on.

As someone said on IRC about a week back... (and really sorry I can't remember who...)

It's a sad, sad day when your builds are more interesting than your characters.

Sorry, just thought this was appropriate.

And in my opinion, if you RP your build right, then there is no problem what it is.

For example, taking a Bard level and RPing no bard qualities whatsoever... it's just lame.

If you can think of a good story why your character has decided to enter paladin-ness (is that even a word?) then build it that way.

Maybe one way could be that they have been journeying with a paladin and seen the good they do, and wish to aid their deity better... maybe they got a vision from their deity... maybe someone converted them?

You get my point... right?

I take full credit for starting this recent trend. There have been other fighter/paladins about EfU since before recent times, but never to the current extent. No doubt the plethora of them look sketchy to the more roleplay-inclined, but they can be very good from a mechanics standpoint, and EfU has always trusted its players (mostly) to handle the RP nature of their builds on their own, except where it specifically contradicts canonical multi-classing rules.

In terms of the justification for it-most Faerunian paladin orders do not allow fighter as an acceptable multi-class. Those that do, it is perfectly permissible and allowed to cross-class freely into paladin; and an even amount of training in paladin for those who cross would make sense. For those paladins who are members of orders that do not allow the multi-class, or who are-gasp-not affiliated with any established paladin orders, they may choose to start their martial training as fighters, depending upon their background. While most paladins do train as children with their respective orders, several orders are constructed as such that a paladin in training might well receive experience in another class before he is actually called to or prepared to be a paladin. Due to the martial/religious bent of most paladin orders, this would likely be fighter or cleric. There is ample time for many paladins associated with some orders to accrue a degree of low-levels in the fighter or cleric class before taking his/her paladin vows; anywhere from 2 to 6 levels.

Due to the relatively low-level nature of EfU, 4 is the optimum number of fighter levels that mesh with a paladin build, while still making a modicum of in-character sense. For paladins never affiliated with any order, who are called to paladin-hood by divine fiat as adults, lawful good fighters and clerics are a tad more likely to become paladins than some of the other classes. Anywhere from level four to level six on EfU would be good for this-when considering a multi-class, you need to allow for the average server level limit when multi-classing, to allow a couple of levels in the chosen multi-class. For EfU, if we say the average server level is about 8, this means the multi-class needs to start at about 4 or 6 to demand consistent repeated levels in it, to actually show that paladin development in the class as well as in roleplaying. DEing stuff with one level of paladin is atrocious, as some of our players have discovered.

So, in short, the nature of EfU and the optimization of the build make starting at level 4 fighter the most effective and sane build. Hope this answers your question, and I hope you also realize that most of us who take the multi-class do have valid (to us!) reasons for it. I do know I've seen a couple of fighter/paladins who have impressed me with the way they handle the divine calling to/conversion to the paladin class/life.

Also, fighter/paladin chicks are super-hot. More Jenner Tenken, anyone? If only she hadn't escaped the UD and gone to Arabel... sigh. We could have explored the meaning of love and fighter/paladins long and hard, I'll say.

-SaRF

SaRF snip

I salute you again, well played. I wouldn't even have the patience to go to such lengths.

SaRF certainly does a good job of justifying this. Perhaps next he should give a go at Monk/Druid?

Seeing as my question was answered, best we lock before it gets any further out of hand, you DMyfolk.

If peoples mindset is "build first, personality second" when they make their characters then they're on the wrong server, and mechanically proficient characters with nothing else to offer are not only disliked by the DM team but also - I would hope - thorougly boring to play.

I think that building your classes and feats around the character (iron will for Banites!) is great though and to be encouraged. Do what makes sense for you. Nobody will ever be thought poorly of for optimising their characters ability to survive however - it's a hard server!

In truth of course... as long as you're not harming anyone, if you're enjoying yourself, who gives a damn what anybody else thinks.

Have fun guys.