With Metro's post re: paladins in mind

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/29/29178/divine-class-duties-expectations-and-restrictions/index.html#post-113845

i thought i'd collect some advice that i have been given from experienced players on EfU and elsewhere and put some tips down about playing clerics well. Fell free to add, challenge, these are only my first thoughts having been inspried by Metro and i am sure they are not perfect.

Playing a Cleric

Do

- Read the Faith's of Faerun on this forum

- Organise/celebrate you deities holy day e.g. Coin Festival -Vergadain, Great Hunt - Malar etc. Get lots of people involved.

- If at all possible use you deities favoured weapon/armour e.g. nature clerics of Silvanus not likely to use metal full plate.

- With a couple notable exceptions refer to your deity (by name ideally) every other sentence. Think of a Catholic priest or Imam, everything they see, do, think or say is through the prism of their faith. Whether its money, war, love, hate, greed etc.

- Convert people, think of it like you know this amazing secret that you simple HAVE to tell everyone about.

- Say a pray everytime you log in if at all possible

- Hate people = you are a religious nut job

- Love people = you are a religious nut job

- Want to attack on sight Clerics of certain other faiths e.g. Corellon/Gruumsh, Garl Glittergold/Kurtlumak, Tyr/Bane, Selune/Shar

Don't

- Bless anyone who does not give proper homage to your deity e.g. a trade Cleric of Waukeen may ask for coin, a Cleric of Sune may ask you to... well best not go there..

- Like it when someone of your race (e.g. elf) prays to a none pantheon deity (e.g. Bane, Torm, Sune). Even if the deity is 'good' aligned, your pantheon cleric would see it as a betrayal!

- Sell potions or wands you craft to any old person, unless they give proper homage (notable possible exceptions being trading deities e.g. Vergadain, Waukeen etc.)

- Accept thanks from people for healing you or blessing them. Always correct them, it isn't you its your deity

- Accept blessings from any others clerics (exceptions maybe for clerics of you pantheon e.g. Cleric of Moradin blessing a Cleric of Berronar)

Well, some of those rules apply and some don't. If your deity's dogma says to help, aid, gain wealth, spread magic. Than I'm sure selling things crafted from your deity's powers is fine.

I think the rule of ensuring the person who is buying the wand or potion knows what power created it applies, even if the deity wants to aid, spread magic etc.

Not sure even Ilmater Clerics are in to helping anonymously? The advice isn't to not do it just to make sure that the person buying is aware who your deity is and appreciates that fact.

Clerics of trickster gods such as Brandobaris are given lots of lee way as long as they adventure, play tricks, or cause trouble. Holy ceremonies of Brandobaris include the tale telling event, the trickster's stash (Where you steal and hide items, and tell a story to Brandobaris and whether he likes the story or not will depend if the items disappear or not), and others.

These are really good tips for certain dogmas; I think I may adopt a few of these, see if it helps my own roleplaying. Still, just as there are many trees in the forest, there are many leaves on each tree. I believe each dogma can and should be interpreted in a way unique to your character, even if it's not perfect; no matter who you play, no matter how devout, they are always a person first and a class second. Imperfection is a fantastic trait in a character.

FreezeyCold Everything they see, do, think or say is through the prism of their faith. Whether its money, war, love, hate, greed etc.

FreezeyCold - Hate people = you are a religious nut job

- Love people = you are a religious nut job

FreezeyCold - Accept blessings from any others clerics (exceptions maybe for clerics of you pantheon e.g. Cleric of Moradin blessing a Cleric of Berronar)

Beyond commenting on your points I'd like to add two of my own. For clerics, nothing should be trivial. They are constantly representatives of their faith and god, and what they do should reflect well on both and benefit both. In particular, it's important to remember that casting a divine spell isn't a trivial matter - The cleric, through the strength of his faith, is manifesting a fraction of a god's power. Being able to do this should have a profound effect on the cleric's psyche (and should hopefully occasionally impress those witnessing it). While gasping over every cure light wounds is a bit of a stretch, casting divine spells shouldn't be treated as entirely mundane. And even casting level 0 spells can be put to good use - Casting Light, for instance, is an excellent opportunity for an expression of faith, at least for clerics of some deities.

The FR setting is a polytheistic setting. Rivalries exist between some of the deities, there's competition between most of them over worshipers and some of them certainly claim superiority over some or all of the others, but they do no deny each other's existence (there may be some exceptions, but I'm not sure). Competition between clerics exists and mirrors divine rivalry, but not between all and not always to a great degree. Between non-opposing clerics there certainly can be an understanding and a recognition of each other's place in the greater system of the world.

...I know this amazing secret that I simply HAVE to tell everyone about:

War is fair in that it oppresses and aids all equally and that in any given battle, a mortal may be slain or become a great leader among his or her companions. It should not be feared, but seen as natural force, a human force, the storm that civilization brings by its very existence. Arm all for whom battle is needful, even foes. Retreat from hopeless fights but never avoid battle. Slay one foe decisively and halt a battle quickly rather then rely upon slow attrition or the senseless dragging on of hostilities. Remember the dead that fell before you. Defend what you believe in, lest it be swept away. Disparage no foe and respect all, for valor blazes in all regardless of age, sex, or race. Tempus looks with favor upon those that acquit themselves honorably in battle without resorting to such craven tricks as destroying homes, family, or livestock when a foe is away or attacking from the rear (except when such an attack is launched by a small band against foes of vastly superior numbers). Consider the consequences of the violence of war, and do not wage war recklessly. The smooth-tongued and fleet of feet that avoid all strife and never defend their beliefs wreak more harm than the most energetic tyrant, raider, or horde leader.

...and now you know. I expect you all to go out and make clerics at once.

I was planning on making a post like this. I think that just about everything that FreezyCold said is spot on. My experience with clerics on EFU has been great in that I very rarely see clerics played as wizards in full plate. Going a step beyond this, there are several ways that a cleric (or any deeply religious character) can go a step beyond this. If you're hoping to have a shrine or temple put up somewhere for your character (an amazing goal for every priest), you need to work to sell the religion to Sanctuary rather than just the PCs your character runs into.

It's easy to preach the dogma verbatim, but I'm not really inspired to convert my pc to that religion. When I see someone working to relate the deity's teachings to everyday life and what's going on in the module, I think that player's doing a pretty good job and I'd seriously consider converting. What I really like to see is people trying to convert the NPC population of Sanctuary to their faith. This has been done a number of excellent way by several clerics:

Councilor Gibbon Meldren (Kotenku) was around when agents of Sslal'teesh unleashed a fairly potent plague on Sanctuary. Whenever I'd log in, I'd see Gibbon spreading the dogma of Talona and offering to heal citizens who offered praise to his god. He did this for some time. This helped make Talona look better in the eyes of the people than she usually does, gaining converts for Meldren's faith.

Several Banites (Oro, Caddies, Mylin, Obedience and Meldread come to mind) have tried to appeal to the people of Lower Sanctuary who are desperate for some semblance of safety among the chaos and violence that's pretty constant down there. Things like offering meals to the poor if they come listen to a sermon or offering a prayer to Bane usually works pretty well. Tracking down rather nasty criminals (especially the ones who aren't particularly useful) and executing them in a display of Bane's power and will to defend those who fear them all do wonders.

Adapting any situation to fit your god is a big plus. If Sanctuary was just attacked by drow/duergar/whatever and your priest of Tempus helped fend them off, before everyone leaves the gate area give a five minute sermon on how Tempus' might helped them persevere. If a criminal was recently captured and is about to be stoned, it'd make sense for your priestess of Helm/Torm/Tyr to get up on the steps of the Town Hall and rattle off a few lines about how her deity's vigilance helped bring the criminal in, and that anyone who worships him may have some decent luck with future bounties.

As far as crafting and healing goes, definitely make sure the person on the receiving end at least acknowledges your god. A cleric of Illmater may be the most prone to healing just about everyone, but she's not going to do it anonymously. Your job is to get your deity out there so that people who are interested will start worshiping him. If there's something that your deity really hates, try asking for it along with a prayer. A cleric of Lathander requesting items that animate the dead on top of a prayer and the gold in exchange for a wand is spot on. The same with a priest of Shar who asks for things that create light or is related to a good faith.

I'll post some more soon. It might be a decent idea for those of you who've played clerics well to post some ideas about being proactive with your character's faith.

Lets not forget Waukeen! Every time you make a sale, make a Sermon!

I have played clerics in the past and am currently playing a cleric at the moment. I think the most important thing, and the most interesting is to remember that clerics of the same deity can interpret their doctrine in different ways, and this can lead to some excellent RP.

I am not saying you can manipulate the deity's doctrine to fit your needs, but many of the deity descriptions give leeway for interpretation, and cover a wide variety of alignments.

So, just because a player doesn't play their cleric the way you see the faith, don't immediately think it is wrong, try to understand their interpretation, then have a good argument or discussion in character about it.

Some methods I like to use for playing a cleric:

- understand all of your deities faith, but pick one specific facet that your cleric will focus on above all others and really push that facet. I find this helps people identify with your cleric more, as not everyone is well versed on all aspects of every deity.

ie. a cleric of Hoar that focuses on the bad luck aspect he shares with Beshaba versus a cleric of Hoar that focuses on poetic justice.

- find some simple task that allows you to fulfill part of your clerics dogma, and that you can do when you have nothing else to do. Then use this simple task to start conversations without having to preach.

ie. A war cleric who offers to check over people's weapons, a cleric of Waukeen that offers to identify items so merchants can better sell them. I had a cleric of Jergal on another server that wrote down people's names when he met them so it would be easier to record them when that person died. A simple task, but it made meeting and interacting with people easy.

- don't necissarily resort to violence or outright refusal to talk to those of differing faiths (unless your deity demands it of course). This leads to more interesting discussions and arguments over faith than drawing a weapon and attacking.

- if you lose your "clericness" don't necissarily give up on the cleric, ask the DM team if they are willing to let you RP your loss of faith and the trials you undergo to regain your status as a cleric.

This is too long, so I will stop there.

If you are thinking of playing a cleric for the first time, I highly recommend that you consider playing one that is open about their faith.

Playing a super-secret cleric that tries to convert people behind the scenes along with crazy plotting and the like is rather challenging. It helps a lot to get a feel for what openly preaching and leading people in faith is like before adding another layer of complexity. It's easy for the character to turn into his boring everyday identity without ever showing the really cool, secret one that you had originally planned. This probably goes for any class, but from experience I'd like to mention it here.

If you have played lots of clerics, play a heretic!

I am serious too. Find some information about heretical cleric orders, such as Ilmater or Tyr or Helm. They're amazingly fun, and they still get spells somehow despite their heresies--generally.

It is, however, a good idea to let DMs know the heresy is canon--and insure they agree.

It is different when playing a cleric of an evil god and a good god. I think it is more difficult to be a cleric for an evil god. Preaching is important, and most of all making an interesting character that others will remember too.

While playing a cleric of an evil god, or goddess as my case may be, I believe it is important not to view your god as evil unless there is something explicit in the teachings. You have faith in your god, you believe their teachings as true, you (IC) do not see yourself as evil in order to do evil things. You see yourself as promoting your Deity and doing what they would want you to do. You have reasons for becoming a cleric and good reasons for doing what you do.

A cleric should preach, whether it is up front out of nowhere, during questing, or at the end of a long day together. As clerics of good or evil deities one must also consider that some of the players out there could care less. One should not give up hope on those, but continue on and convert as planned.

But in the end, creating a character that is interesting, has a background, goals, is important for clerics as it is for other characters, plus you have a set of teachings to fall back on. Teachings that you should consider how to bring to the server.

And as Scalebane said, a shrine or temple should be every clerics goal, Everyone needs a shrine!

I have seen many fine clerics make my time here on the server enjoyable and hope to see many more.

Joe Desu brings up a good point in regard to seeing yourself as evil. The acts you take have to make sense to your character, and should not be based around the thought, "I did this because I am evil."

For my Sharran she does not believe in the concept of morality. Good and evil are ultimately irrelevant concepts as the outcome of the world has already been determined - Shar will be victorious, everyone will die and return to the primeval void and there will be complete and utter bliss when that happens. Or so she believes. This makes, in her mind, every action the Paladin takes to bring about goodness in the world ultimately irrelevant in the long run, even if in the short interim things get better. It is her duty to remind everyone that there is no hope, things are the way that they are, that they should accept their lot in life, and turn to Shar for guidance as she is the darkness of Sanctuary.

For a Cyric follower the same also applies in a different degree. Good and evil are irrelevant concepts, and what matters more is personal freedom. The ability to do or say whatever you want, regardless of the consequences. Cyric represents this freedom and this power, and those who go against Cyric seek to oppress you and therefore are weak and deserve death. A society that is constantly rife with strife is preferable to a society that is oppressive to its people. All other faiths inherently lead to tyranny and therefore must be opposed as Cyric is the only true god. Those that do not fear or bow before Cyric are fools and deserve death.

That is generally how I have characters who interpret the faith as they spread it to others. When preaching it really comes down to: What can your faith offer to others in their day-to-day lives?

When I played my Kossuthian he tried really hard to point out that fire creates light, and being in the Underdark this was a good thing. He tried to remind people that without fire everything they took for granted would not exist. Without the fire of the forge, for example, the followers of Tempus and Red Knight would have no weapons or armor in which to do battle. Therefore, Sanctuary would be defenseless against the enemies of the Underdark without Kossuth.

Some deities, though, are very difficult to play.

No. Because you aren't a religious nut job, not unless that's the sort of character you want to play. Religion, faith and deities have a very large and very strong place in the FR setting

On reflection i agree, i guess i was trying to urge strong behaviour RP wise, which in many, but not all, cases would be influenced by a strong relgious faith

I'm dead set on playing a NE cleric of Deep D. (Dwarf Deity). So any suggestions are welcome, I was wondering how I should go about RPing him. I chose the evil and war domains. I;m playing it as he as lost his clan ...he's bitter and wants to war all non-dwarf kin. Though his wisdom (cleric) he knows he cant just openly hate all other races and accomplish anything. I hoping to use the "greed" of other dwarfs as the stepping stone to the new age of "dwarfdom"

All shall bow to the might of me kinsman!!

This just a purely preference thing but

When you are planning to play an evil character with evil plans, the first thing to do is not let the heroes know before their dead....as in don't tell people OOCly what your super evil plans are until you accomplish them! :D

Besides that, that's all I got. I fail at dwarves.

Okay, here's a few thoughts on plaing Clerics of shady, evil dieties.

First of all, do not lie about your faith and pretend to be a Cleric of say... Helm, if you really are a Cleric of Mask. I know this is a very good cover for your evil plotting, you might even infiltrate the Helmite clergy and find out useful tidbits of information, but you should not do this. If you do this you are giving the credit for all your neat divine spells and benefits to a rivaling diety and unintentionally furthering him instead of your own diety.

To continue, you may choose to not reveal your divine abilities to anyone you do not trust and remain secretive that way instead. By that I mean you will not openly advertise being a cleric of your God, and you will not cast spells on your party and on monsters when you are out questing and whatnot.

This can be done very well and I like to see people favor roleplay like that over how mechanically powerful you could or could not be. However something you shouldn't be afraid of is taking risks. Taking risks with approaching people about your faith in private if you deem them possible to convert, or just to actively seek out people of your own faith. I know from experience you might just become a bit too secretive when playing a cleric of these Gods, and you end up doing no preaching of your diety's teachings at all. The worst thing that could happen if you do talk to the wrong person, is good conflict and roleplay.

Also good to remember is, people may worship more than one God. Just because your God isn't someone's patron doesn't mean he can't join you in prayer and pay the proper respects.

I believe each dogma can and should be interpreted in a way unique to your character, even if it's not perfect; no matter who you play, no matter how devout, they are always a person first and a class second. Imperfection is a fantastic trait in a character.

While this holds true perhaps for leypersons, men and women of the clergy are trained in what is proper dogma. In order to obtain divine blessings from their God, representing that they are a mouthpiece and agent of that God on Toril, they must adhere to the dogma of the God. Clerics and priests who stray from the dogma will have spell failure representing the Diety removing the divine aid from someone who has gone astray from what they know to be true.

The Beggar

I believe each dogma can and should be interpreted in a way unique to your character, even if it's not perfect; no matter who you play, no matter how devout, they are always a person first and a class second. Imperfection is a fantastic trait in a character.

While this holds true perhaps for leypersons, men and women of the clergy are trained in what is proper dogma. In order to obtain divine blessings from their God, representing that they are a mouthpiece and agent of that God on Toril, they must adhere to the dogma of the God. Clerics and priests who stray from the dogma will have spell failure representing the Diety removing the divine aid from someone who has gone astray from what they know to be true.

If I'm not mistaken (yea, it happens once a year or so), the first author intended that you should be very strict with following the dogma, but you might now always get it perfect and definately won't always interpret it the same to some degree. This is not saying you can ignore the dogma, or "believe it" but not make wholehearted attempts to follow it. Let me try and give an example.

Dogma of Oghma Never slay a singer, nor stand by as others do so.

It's plain, it's straight, you can't twist that and not be hit with the consequences. Trying to say things like "He was a bad singer." or "He ate babies!" or the most realistic "He attacked me first!" isn't going to cut it. Why is a singer attacking an Oghman cleric? Obviously he messed up somewhere and angered him/her in a way that would not agree with the Oghman dogma. Or perhaps you've suddenly found out how it's sometimes very hard to protect a baby-eater when you're a LG Oghman priest...

Dogma of Kossuth Kossuth sends his pure fire to cleanse us all and temper our souls so that we can achieve a pure state.

Does this mean Kossuth will spiritually purge you with fire, or does this mean that everyone should be physically tested under the flames? It could easily be interpreted either way, it just depends on how your character's personality and life experiences lead him to do so.

Lastly, to bring the Beg's part into harmony, yes, divine powers will be removed depending on the breach of dogma. This might not be best for the character, certainly, but does that mean that it isn't best for your character's story? Redemption is a classic theme in literature, and has an even more important place in the world of the Forgotten Realms.

I'll play my cleric to my best interpretation of how I think the Cleric should be played. All posts here are great points and great ideas, but the application of them varies greatly from one deity to the next.

Ultimately, the DM will determine if I am playing within the scope of the deity.

Some clerics will be more preachy than others, some will simply make it known who they worship and let their deeds speak for them. Some Clerics will demand tribute for their blessings, others might not (at least not on the spot).

Some clerics will accept blessings from other deities' clerics, especially if the Gods are allies. There MAY be cases when the deities are diametrically opposed and you might still accept, if not a blessing, healing or some other beneficial divine magic.

First of all, do not lie about your faith and pretend to be a Cleric of say... Helm, if you really are a Cleric of Mask. I know this is a very good cover for your evil plotting, you might even infiltrate the Helmite clergy and find out useful tidbits of information, but you should not do this. If you do this you are giving the credit for all your neat divine spells and benefits to a rivaling diety and unintentionally furthering him instead of your own diety.

Depends on the scope of your mission. Certain clerics may very well masquerade as a cleric of another deity, if the end result will glorify and advance the aims of your own deity in a manner that far outweighs what good you might have done in another deities name. Sharrans in particular might do something like this.

Ultimately, clerics serve to advance the aims of their deity. There are so many ways to do this that trying to come up with a singular list of 'ways a cleric must behave' is an exercise in futility.

------------------------------

One more note (in response to something stated before): Sune is a Goddess of beauty, love, and passion... not the Goddess of hedonism and getting it on. While many Sunites may indeed be quite hedonistic, it is not part of her Dogma, necessarily. Nurturing love and passion does not equate to getting into people's pants.

There is a Goddess of Hedonism. Her name is Sharess.

For Fanatical clerics:

Always take an opportunity to preach. Every other sentence should mention your deity. Even wandering around saying, "PRaise Talos," or, "PRaise the Twin Lord of Flame, May his Divine flame Purify us all!"

For passive clerics:

,...Most people are already this.

Depends on the scope of your mission. Certain clerics may very well masquerade as a cleric of another deity, if the end result will glorify and advance the aims of your own deity in a manner that far outweighs what good you might have done in another deities name. Sharrans in particular might do something like this.

It's not impossible for me to see this happen in rare cases, I agree with that. But if you're going to do it I recommend talking to a DM first. I have myself discussed the topic with one and his/their opinion was something similar to what I wrote.

Non-Duergar shouldn't or wouldn't be worshipping Deep Duerra.

Agreed, Canzah, would be a rare thing and would need to coordinate with an approving DM.

But keep in mind that (well, except in Sanctuary, maybe, don't know the population, and the normal ratios might be off, also the Underdark as a whole probably has a skewed ratio) adventurers are rare, representing only a very small portion of any population. PCs are exceptional folks.

Ultimately, my point is to not let inflexible 'rules' about how you 'have to' play your PC hinder your imagination and RP. So long as you adhere to guidelines and tenets of your faith, personal interpretation should be more than allowed, it should be welcomed.

It also can be noted that the cleric's alignment influences how he looks on the dogma and which parts of it he especially presses/focuses on (even if he has to adhere to the whole). For example a CE priest of Shar would actively spread misinformation, a NE might focusing on collecting secrets and using them cunningly while a LE would use his powers mainly to gather and keep followers, preferably in the Underdark/caves/darkness and thrive there, "growing strong in the darkness of our Godess" and such. It does not mean that e.g. a CE priest of Shar would not gather followers but most possibly his favourite or primary "modus operandi" would be the spreading of lies.

Each dogma is wide enough to make those variations so taking the alignment of the char into the picture might define it even more.

My idea only, feel free to comment.

On an other note it would be nice that if the DM team sees something not appropriate for a given cleric than facilitate a discussion with the player before applying spell failures. It might happen that the player has a valid but unorthodox idea, or there are just some misunderstandings.