There was some talk of making Hold Person not work on were-creatures anymore.

Why not? Isn't were just a template in D&D to human? Hence it should work since it checks for the race before the template is applied.

If however a DM decides to change the current mechanics, IE wanted to make Hold no longer work on weres, I'd like to ask you to only do it if you implement silver and belladonna working on PC weres at the same time.

And, of course, if you do change it, to also change it on the PC sub-races that aren't humanoid, like the illithid.

Uh. Were-wolves in were form are not humans they are hybrids, and thus not affected by hold person. Hold monster would work fine.

The only hold person I've ever encountered, was in the goblin camp quest, and it was effective on me.

If a DM wants to test out the system, give me a shout and we can find out for sure.

All the times PC's have tried to hold me, I already had 3 alignment buffs in my system, so it always rolled off me.

LaBrea Uh. Were-wolves in were form are not humans they are hybrids, and thus not affected by hold person. Hold monster would work fine.

Currently, hold person works on PC weres in hybrid-form, if I am not minsinformed, which is the point I am addressing- if you do manage to change this thus that it no longer works on weres in that form, I would be grateful if you would also include the ability to harm them with silver, and most importantly, if you would make sure that all other playable monstrous subraces that still are affected by Hold Person, but shouldn't, should be fixed too.

No where does Hold Monster enter the equation unless I phrased it poorly.

Edit: Put the post back, RWG, it was good.

I think he was pointing out an alternative.

That said however, as plentiful as MW is, its rather pointless to add scripted vulnerability to silver weapons in my opinion.

Out of the some odd 10+ People i've PvP'd with, only one had no magic weapon. I'd much rather face numerous people with silver weapons, than 10 people with magic weapon, because atleast against silver, steps can be taken to protect from it. (Namely: Ghostly Visage). That said however, NWN silver weapons aren't legitly silver. Its cold damage vs. Lycans, if i'm not mistaken. Which brings in a whole other bag of worms. Would Protection from Elements work against it? Silver is, after all, an element.

Though its at the DM's choice. If they wanna throw it in, go for it.

As for the issue with Hold Person, there's a level of psuedo-metagaming I've encountered. I've never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever, ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever,ever (etc.)seen someone attempt to Hold Person a Chosen. Yet when I'm PvPing people, the hold wand, or hold spell, is one of the first things they run for. Granted i'm usually packing 3 alignment buffs, If you're gonna throw the one hold person at the PC lycan, throw them at NPC lycans as well.

Belladonna is a whole other can of worms. Its a poison akin to arsenic for Lycans, but also poisonous to humans. However it has to be ingested to be a poison. Otherwise it just gives nausea i've been told. If you try to force-feed a werewolf poison, don't feel bad when he removes your hand. Then you go into shock from the blood loss, then are eaten alive.

Again, The DMs have the final say. Its easy for me to be biased, as I am the only PC lycan at the moment, so the balls in your court.

This is something I have wondered since a PC werewolf came to the server, and have forgot to ask. This seems to be a good thread for asking.

Is a werewolf and a chosen the same thing? Or are chosen a separate race? I have never seen a chosen turn into human form, I always figured they only had the were-equivalent form and were some sort of special were-creature different from a normal werecreature.

Also, aren't all of the chosen wererats so a werewolf would look different?

I haven't met RWG in werewolf form so knowing these things would be helpful so I don't metagame.

Thanks

Hold Person is meant to affect humanoids. As humanoids, both in animal, human, and hybrid form, lycanthropes are meant to be susceptible to the effects of Hold Person. I don't know if the standard NPC lycans are affected by Hold Person, but they really should be!

Random_White_Guy

Belladonna is a whole other can of worms. Its a poison akin to arsenic for Lycans, but also poisonous to humans. However it has to be ingested to be a poison. Otherwise it just gives nausea i've been told. If you try to force-feed a werewolf poison, don't feel bad when he removes your hand. Then you go into shock from the blood loss, then are eaten alive.

Again, The DMs have the final say. Its easy for me to be biased, as I am the only PC lycan at the moment, so the balls in your court.

Belladonna gives you a temporary AC boost vs. lycanthropes. You don't feed it to them. At least not in NWN.

Ah. I was going off Pnp stuff, I think. Or maybe another server, Pup. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hold Person does not work on were-rats, tried it on Jane once.

RWG

Silver is, after all, an element.

Not in the DnD sense of elements. I mean so is iron, but PfE doesn't soak damage from a sword.

Swords cut though.

A silver sword would still cut a human.

I was just postulating the aspect of the "Burning-ness" of it effecting lycans being cancelled out or deluded by PfE.

Silver as an element harms Lycans. Rings, Bolts, Sling bullets.

The silver aspect would cancel the DR, which allows it to cut, but I was just putting it out there that it'd be possible maybe, for PfE, to stop the burning. Which would mean basically that PfE would cancel out the burning, and DR would cancel out the sword aspect.

Random_White_Guy That said however, as plentiful as MW is, its rather pointless to add scripted vulnerability to silver weapons in my opinion.

Out of the some odd 10+ People i've PvP'd with, only one had no magic weapon. I'd much rather face numerous people with silver weapons, than 10 people with magic weapon, because atleast against silver, steps can be taken to protect from it.

Your ability to dunk a ghostly visage potion doesn't change matters, IMHO, because you're leaving out things like bonus damage from STR, critical hits, and sneak attack. It all adds up.

A95 Hold Person does not work on were-rats, tried it on Jane once.

I have held Jane before, but I always got it off when she was in human form. (And no, I wasn't metagaming, she attacked but never shifted form...wierd).

Further, IIRC, I have seen chosen held I believe. So, depending on what goes down, maybe that may need a look too.

PlayerCharacter

Random_White_Guy That said however, as plentiful as MW is, its rather pointless to add scripted vulnerability to silver weapons in my opinion.

Out of the some odd 10+ People i've PvP'd with, only one had no magic weapon. I'd much rather face numerous people with silver weapons, than 10 people with magic weapon, because atleast against silver, steps can be taken to protect from it.

I have to strongly disagree with this. My current character carries four weapons with him wherever he goes, and two of them are silver. It perturbs me that silver does not work against PC lycanthropes because it devalues the worth of silver, and gives me a non-IC reason to carry around more equipment (in this case, a magic weapon wand).

Your ability to dunk a ghostly visage potion doesn't change matters, IMHO, because you're leaving out things like bonus damage from STR, critical hits, and sneak attack. It all adds up.

Crits and sneak attacks still add up on DR. The issue with silver weapons, is they are not "Silver" damage. Its cold damage. I'm all for silver weapons working. And in all honesty I wish it was like NWN2, where nothing -BUT- silver would hurt a werewolf.

If MW didn't work, and didn't slaughter PC/NPC's, Silver weapons would have exponentially greater value. Silver is cheap because Magic Weapon is so versitile. If the DMs wanna script it so silver works, and MW doesn't, Sexy.

This thread has brought up an interesting point or two. I would also like to say that I don't really interact with the current werewolf PC, so my opinions shouldn't be taken in the context that I want to nerf anyone in particular.

I believe that the damage on silver weapons should be changed from cold to divine, because I do not believe a simple endure elements potion or spell should keep were-things safe from this bonus damage.

In PnP, the "Person" spells (Enlarge, Reduce, and Hold) are unique in that they are quite powerful but affect only a certain type of creatures.

According to 3.5 D&D Edition rules, the overarching type of creature all Elves, Humans, Gnomes, Orcs, and general things that you would expect to use Hold Person on are listed as type Humanoid. If one would look at the entry for a were-creature, they would see that their type is Humanoid. Every additional form is also listed and the type does not change, so according to a strict reading of these rules, a human werewolf is always susceptable to a Hold Person spell regardless of whatever his current form may be. The case would be the same for the Chosen, who's base creature and applied template do not affect a Person spell.

Lycantrophe can affect giants as well as humanoids. In the case that the base creature is of the giant type, Person spells can not affect him, as the type of the creature remains Giant.

As an aside, I think we've had enough templated giants to last us quite awhile. :wink:

For clarification, I was not saying PfE should be used to keep of the cold damage, but the damage of the silver all together.

Its the properties of silver that make it harmful. In any form. A silver ring would burn a hand. A necklace, the chest and neck. The fact its carved into a sword, is only designed to quicker kill.

Well, I disagree with that myself. Moreso, such a change would make carrying silver weapons a fairly pointless process, as opposed to simply grabbing a wand of magic weapon that will do more damage that cannot be anywhere near as easily defended against. If all the mechanics are to remain the same, players should be encouraged to carry weapons designed specifically for killing were-creatures, rather than simply enchanting their best weapon.

Although, according to PnP, enhancement bonuses do not affect whether or not a weapon will overcome a specific type damage reduction, but I would not recommend such a change like that to EfU simply because of the prevalence of monsters with damage reduction and the difficulties of acquiring equipment. In PnP, your PCs generally have a huge pile of gold that they can unload in a large enough city for just about any item or enchantment they want. Things are obviously much different in EfU.

Sadly, this is exactly the case-

Moreso, such a change would make carrying silver weapons a fairly pointless process, as opposed to simply grabbing a wand of magic weapon that will do more damage that cannot be anywhere near as easily defended against. If all the mechanics are to remain the same, players should be encouraged to carry weapons designed specifically for killing were-creatures, rather than simply enchanting their best weapon.

From a PC perspective, again, bias not withstanding, This is already the case. NPC wise though-

Magic Weapon is the universal DR-destroyer. Lycans. Outsiders. The Works. Silver Weapons are useless to a cleric, because they have magic weapon. Iron weapons are useless to a fighter with a mage friend to adventure with, because he can simply cast "magic weapon".

Sadly, to my knowledge, This can't be avoided. If it was possible, it would be better. And granted some of that comes from the fact that I am playing one, Yes. But in general, Iron and Silver Weapons are some of the worst selling items from a merchant perspective. When I played my Mass-Merchant Duergar, they were almost worthless simply because of magic weapon.

Aren't sourcebooks fun?

According to my 3.5 Monster Manual, a lycanthrope's creature type does not change, but it gains the subtype shapeshifter. The creature type stays the same when they're in their hybrid form.

So basically, a human werewolf is still a human in his hybrid form, so hold person should work on them. Whether that makes any sense is a different matter.