Ok, firstly let me start by saying thank you to everyone in this server who've made my arrival here enjoyable!

Now about dice, specifically Persuade checks. I understand "persuade" does not equate "Mind Control", and really it's meant to be taken as a very strong suggestion. I don't expect if I roll a 30+ persuade that I've suddenly got a devoted follower out of whoever I've just rolled at. At the best, they'd take the suggestion, at the minimal, I'd think whoever my character just tried to persuade would at the least think about it, and -then- come up with angry or rational reasons as to why they aren't.

On the other hand, I don't expect my character to be utterly and totally brushed off and ignored as she has been. Much talk is given on roleplaying stats as a player, but I've yet to see many people roleplay -other- people's stats too (with the exception of a Sunite woman who rightly has the majority of men drool in her wake). If someone nearby rolls an intimidate check at someone else, I'll RP my character trying to shrink away, regardless of how logical it is that she does so.

So this leads me to this question: In this server, are dice rolls commonly used and respected as a general rule? Or are dice frowned upon and it's the strength of the player's roleplay and the cooperation of other players that are encouraged?

I hardly think that dice rolls would be frowned upon if they're so easy to make. Personally, I highly encourage making skill checks in conversation, adds dimension, and it conveys how good your character is at persuading, intimidating, bluffing, whatever, rather than how good the player behind the keyboard is.

Well, the general idea is that dice's and rolls are, like you said, brushed off in PC to PC interaction.

On other hand, they do allow the other side to see a bit more into your character. Honestly said, if you roll 30 persuade with me, I expect you to do something for it. Just few words isn't enough. You seriously got to make the situation and your offer to be the kind that one can't decline.

Example.

If someone proceeds to me and inquires me to join him on a fight against demons, giving few good examples of why I should do it and then just roll *persuade*, I guarantee that if my character really isn't into it, I ain't going to jump on it.

On other hand, if I would be in a battlefield, where we just have killed one evil imp and it would have given us some gold as loot, perhaps little, there's a perfect chance to persuade my guy. Show him what we got this time, promise a treasure filled future, and perhaps some good advantages. Now, there's good place to show your persuade skill. There I will think "Cool, this guy made a good speech, and he's character is backing it up. Why the hell not."

What I'm trying to say, is that the rule about playing your stats, is just as this example. You got to play it, not just go and roll for it. Just some points on your character info won't make a difference if you don't really show any nature to be suitable for it.

Also regarding rolls. Personally I am of the belief that your argument should reflect your roll.

You shouldn't make a compelling speech, then go "Oh! Yeah! I forgot!" [rolls a persuade role, and gets a 1], so people ignore him.

You should roll, then your emotes and words should reflect that.

For example:

Listen here, Filthy Elf-

[rolls a 2 intimidate] [Coughs awkwardly, his voice cracking a bit] "Shut the hell up before I...beat you!"

Where as this scenario, different result-

Silence, Worm!

[rolls a 24 intimidate] [Towers over the pisant, His masive shoulders rolling, literally almost growling] "You -will- do as I tell you, Lest I remove your reproductive organs, shove them down your throat, and run you through with a rusted sword! [Proceeds to pull out the rusted blade, placing it at his groin, silently awaiting an answer]"

Many times I've seen people make rolls, agreed upon, after making some uber-scary emote or bold-face-lie, then it just rolls off the back of the other character if they roll a 1.

To me, that just doesn't make sense, ICly.

In player/player interactions, nothing is enforced. This does not mean social skills are useless if you never go on DM quests anyway.

Personally, I do not think the social skills should represent how you deal with people. Rather, the way you deal with people should reflect your invested rank (not necessarily total rank) in each social skill. To an extent, of course. As a result, I expect different arguments from one with 10 invested ranks in Persuade than one with 0, and if I'm presented with something I'd expect from one with 0 invested ranks I'll treat it like that.

With that said, it's also a matter of realism. No amount of Persuade is going to make me believe the gods are figments of my imagination, or at least don't exist, but no Persuade is needed to make me believe you when you use a false name. And if you use a handful of outfits and accents to conceal your identity (over a longer period of time), I'll expect you to have at least a couple of ranks in Bluff (or Perform).

I think dice rolls should be used in conversation as applicable. Again, Dice rolls represent the skill of your "character". I do not expect every player who chooses to play a bard be a great story-teller or lyricist. The dice roll will reflect how good the performance was.

I think it was said best that the dice roll should happen early and then the player should tailor their actions to that. If you roll a "1" on that intimidate check, you should roleplay that way on both sides. The same goes for a high roll. If that Goblin just rolled a "30+" intimidate against your Dwarf, regardless of how you as a player feel, your Dwarf should feel intimidated.

-Kalos

Perhaps, but the point is that you can roll 40 on your Intimidate check and "[screams like a little girl]" isn't going to make me wet my pants.

Well, maybe out of sheer hilarity, but I don't think the goblin would appreciate that.

Such rolls are primarily for use with NPCs.

Players can use them between each other, but DCs and such should be agreed on before the roll.

If you say something then just roll the skill unannounced, nobody is expected to have to heed it if they don't want to.

EDIT

Also, when using skill checks with DMs, please don't roll them unless asked! Spamming various rolls unasked floods our screens and is a tad irritating!

This needs some sticky love. As I've seen this contended quite a bit IG.

In PC to PC, if i necromancer rolls a 90 on an intimidate check and says "Tell any and Ill cast you into A NIGHTMARE WORLD FROM WHICH THERE IS NOP RETURN" and they go off and tell the first watchman they see, i get a little, tiny bit annoyed. Just a little.

But also, When someone says "Servant of Tyr, come join us at camp cyric", no matter the roll, I dont think that its a reasonable thing to expect.

Edit: Indeed, Sticky love is much needed. When i first came here i was "Mind controlled" with a persuade roll of 30. >.< RPing a mind slave due to a persuade roll was interesting though.

"But also, When someone says "Servant of Tyr, come join us at camp cyric", no matter the roll, I dont think that its a reasonable thing to expect."

I do think it is understandable that some aspects reach the DC rating of "impossible". Even the best charm spells typically can not make someone go against their core beliefs or commit suicide, but anything less than that should be fair game...with the right roll ;)

-Kalos

I don't try to ever roll, unless a DM asks me to, or I ask a DM if I can roll to accomplish X. I'll avoid rolling in a dialogue because I am not a DM and wouldn't know what DC to beat, and I would rather avoid OOC tells to haggle for a reasonable DC with the player, so you won't see me rolling- unless, of course, I want to show off my epic skill level (which usually results in me rolling a 1). I'd much rather just try to RP my skill than anything else.

This reminds me of the story of the player who rolled a listen check everytime to see if he heard what the other said. Remember that, Halfbrood-bunbun?

I remember it clearly.

That is one of the reasons I -hate- PC to PC dice rolls. They complicate RP no end.

I also dislike PC-to-PC dice rolls mostly because it is almost impossible to get a fair reaction out of another PC if you have an epic skill. Although, sometimes I roll just to make the other PC aware of my skill so if they wish they can RP it. (To which I am always thankful. It is one of my pet peeves that combat related skills always seem to be more useful than social skills.)

Greymuse So this leads me to this question: In this server, are dice rolls commonly used and respected as a general rule? Or are dice frowned upon and it's the strength of the player's roleplay and the cooperation of other players that are encouraged?

I'll try to be more direct than everyone else.

Are dice rolls respected? Usually. It's a complicated issue. If you can work around using dice rolls, do that. Some people will actually get irritated (or even a little offended!) if you throw them out to "get your way" in a situation, such as trying to intimidate someone into doing/not doing something, persuading them into something, etc. So if you DO choose to do this, be polite and ask if it's alright. And don't forget that it's okay to ask others for rolls if you're not convinced by their RP. Some people need a break, because let's face it, we're not all experts at intimidation and persuasion.

Shit, ran out of time. I'll finish the next question when I get back.

[edit] Well, it has been well debated and addressed since. I'll let it rest.

Now that I have time to post, I too actually don't like rolls. It seems like an excuse to not put any thought into what you're saying where it's letting the engine doing your RP for you instead of making the effort yourself. I try to save rolls for npcs and such.

Is this the part where someone makes a pun about rollplay?

I certainly hope not.

As previously covered, people are under no obligation to follow such dice rolls unless DMs are involved and they are prompted to. Personally, I loathe to see them in such large use. They are often used in lieu of any form of creativity, and sometimes lead to OOC squabbles. That being said, I am far more irked by people lying convincingly, giving grand persuasive speeches and intimidating people with cunning words when their skills are in either negative or low ranks. It's all too common.

If I see such things going on, I have, in the past, asked for a private skill check, and then prompted players with an "insight from within", as it were.

Main points: I agree that you shouldn't force anything with the roll unless you've agreed beforehand on a DC like Metro said. Often I just roll to show that I have some skill in a given area, like Meldread said, but this is still done sparingly.

Actually making persuasive arguments and giving descriptive emotes is ideally how you'd project your skill, or lack of it. The roll just kind of gives other players a reference for the image you are trying to conjure.

Fluff: I do think, however, the roll represents the intangible qualities that make your character persuasive or intimidating, even beyond what you might normally emote. If you are persuasive the roll represents having an appealing or commanding voice and a steady gaze. Or if you are a good bluffer, then maybe you have a disarming smile and you never flinch.

Also I think that there is a distinction between the die roll and the number of ranks in the skill. (At least when it comes to the non-DC related intangible part I just mentioned) As Joe Desu once suggested to me, the ranks represent a person's actual skill (innate ability) and the roll represents what happened at that moment (external factors).

For instance with intimidate, a halfling with no ranks might not be particularly menacing, but when he rolled a 20 the lighting was just right and his voice resonated perfectly to get a remarkable effect. Conversely the same halfling with 15 ranks that rolls a 1, fumbled the dagger he normally twirls about and hasn't noticed a piece of pie that's still stuck to his face from lunch--but he's still pretty scary.

There is something of a double standard when it comes to social skills. I've seen many people who are simply immune to epic skill checks, and at the same time you aren't supposed to RP being persuassive if you don't have a positive or greater check in the skill.

Kinda creates a lot of confusion if you are under no obligation to react accordingly to a huge skill check, but then also expected to enforce your own lower skill check in your RP.

I understand the reasoning for both, but it just seems like a sloppy way to reward people with skills as part of their class.

It's pretty impossible to get the skills necessary to get a high persuade fighter for example, well not impossible, but extremely hard. That would not happen if not for the class-rules on social skills, which in my mind, are not related to what class you are in the least. Most leaders and knights for example, were fighters.

Should we penalize people for something their class enforces on them, when we don't enforce the use of those skills on each other as well?

I don't know, I'm just a player. You be the judge!

I really like social dice rolls, possibly because my main has several of them in the twenties (*cough*MIND CONTROL *cough*).

Seriously though, I like to roll persuade dice after I talk, if I get time, and then follow with a little emote afterwards to reflect how well it went, say "His eyes shine with conviction as his speaks" or "he tries to speak with confidence, but he seems distracted by the size of the sword on Bob's hip". I do this because it I want to type whatever I think is IC, then let the dice decide with what conviction it is carried.

The other thing I love to roll is Bluff when I am lying. I detest that int 8, cha 8 characters lie perfectly and smoothly. It is much easier to lie typing with an expressionless face than in RL. If I make an out and out lie I like to spam a bluff roll afterwards. Yes, I know that means the other player can them metagame you are lying. But at least it gives them a chance to assess the quality of the lie. Do his or her eyes saccade everywhere, while a hand pulled at one ear? Or was it said calmly, with silken tongue and soft, reassuring eyes? I think this adds to the complexity of character interaction.

It isn't enforcable, but nor is RPing, doesn't mean I will stop doing it.

I've not read most of these posts, but take note that rolling skill checks mean absolutely nothing unless asked for by a DM, unless two players both agree to something before making it. If you have high persuade/intimidate/bluff, just roleplay it. If you do not, please do not cheat by over-playing these.

wcsherry If you do not, please do not cheat by over-playing these.

And it is cheating.

But, most of all, you're cheating yourself.

P.S don't do drugs

Mr T says:

Stay in drugs, don't do milk, drink your school.

Thank you for all the answers so far.

I've gathered so far that rolls ought to come either

1. When a DM asks for them or 2. When players involved agree upon them.

I think my mistakes so far have been that I haven't asked to roll a persuade check and also that I'm rolling -after- my character says and does what she's trying to persuade with.

Usually she's trying to persuade people to stop getting antagonistic with each other, or trying to de escalate a tense situation. She has also tried to persuade a dwarf to heal up before a fight (Yeah, elf telling a dwarf what would be best, you just KNOW that was met with the enthusiasm of a rock! *grin*)

If you have high persuade/intimidate/bluff, just roleplay it. If you do not, please do not cheat by over-playing these.

I think this policy means that less people will put points into skills like Intimidate and instead rely on their character level to Intimidate other PC's.

I, for one, like the way I have seen player to player dice rolls work on this server and I think it should happen more frequently.

For example: I witnessed a Dwarf character attempting to intimidate another character to leave Upper and return to Lower. Now after a heated dialogue exchange the dwarf player rolled an intimidate check (result = 15, not exactly a high number). The other character said something along the line of "And what are you going to do if I don't?" and rolled an intimidate check of their own (result = 22, not great but far higher than a 15)...The Dwarf then responded with something like..."um...Well, I'll..."

This, to me, represents what should happen. Both players were trying to talk tough, but somehow someone has to crack/break down. If not for the dice rolls this most likely would have had to result in PvP in order to resolve the conflict. I think the result using dice rolls was superior.

I guess what I do not understand is what is the downside to using dice rolls in this way? You still need to RP the situation, the dice roll simply gives both players guidance as to the direction they both should go. In this way it also rewards players for putting points into non-combat skills, something I think this server would like to promote.

Players are only Human and there are many trying to make powerful characters who continue to ignore any non-combat skill, while still (maybe unkowingly) seeking to gain the benefits of those skills.

-Kalos

Vlaid It's pretty impossible to get the skills necessary to get a high persuade fighter for example, well not impossible, but extremely hard. That would not happen if not for the class-rules on social skills, which in my mind, are not related to what class you are in the least. Most leaders and knights for example, were fighters.

I actually have a bit of confusion on this point, and it's important to me to get it cleared up. If I'm playing a fighter with a charisma of 16, but I have no points in any diplomacy skills, does this mean that I can't give an inspiring speech? Or is it the reverse, does the skill point investment only apply to the specific situations to which they refer, with the ability score being the main determinant of overall general personal presence?

I would like to think it's the latter, but I want to get some kind of confirmation of this before I proceed with my next character. Otherwise only bards, paladins, and rogues can make effective politicians.

I personally can't stand the use of dice in any player-to-player interaction.

Even if a DM may think someone is "cheating" by over playing their skills. I've had this happen several times as a player, not just in EfU, and found it mostly insulting but also a situation of a DM not knowing what is going on with the characters and not bothering to ask.

I'd politely request that if a DM disapproves of someone's ability to roleplay their character sheet, they talk it over with the player before hammering them with roll requests. Make sure the person you think is lying is lying.

I recall once being told "Roll Bluff" in a situation where my character was telling the truth. The DM thought I was lying IC, and went so far as to tell other players I was lying IC. I had to clear the whole mess up OOC afterwards.

On another server, my character started to cry once. I was told to roll Perform by the DM there. He thought my character's tears were fake, they in fact were the result of stress and completely in character. Even more frustrating, the DM knew I wasn't playing a bard and had no perform anyway. I'd have thought Bluff would have been better.

Another time, I was lying to a player. The player knew I was lying. In fact, we were both in cahoots together and telling lies so anyone listening in would not realize this. I was told to "Roll Bluff or I will for you". It caused some conflict because, again, a DM leapt in and tried to control how I roleplay without knowing enough about the situation to adjudicate.

I agree, its frustrating when a 6 CHA no persuade half-orc manages to become a fabulous public speaker. However, I'd rather DMs erred on the side of caution and private chats with people than see them just lay down the "Roll this!" policy.

The latter tends to come across as an insult and a hostile challenge. Implying quite directly that you think the player is cheating. This of course applies to player versus player interactions.

In player versus NPC interactions, it makes sense, perfect sense to call for these rolls.

Finally, the last problem is that when a DM requires a roll, things get mucked up.

Someone you only thought may have been lying before, you now KNOW ooc is lying when he's forced to roll bluff.

Someone you thought was lying before, you know KNOW is telling the truth when he's forced to roll persuade.

A DM is telling both the active character how to play his character, often without knowing enough to properly adjudicate if this is factual or not, and the inactive character how to respond to the active player. "Your gut tells you he is lying" will predicate to the player that they must now view the other person as a liar, even if for the last months or weeks he'd come to view the liar as a closely trusted friend (because the liar in fact was behaving as a closely trusted friend). Yet a DM, unaware of the character's interactions, demanded a roll with a DC set on what he thought was fair, but was in fact inappropriate because it did not take months of personal roleplaying into account.

In essence, before DMs decide someone is a cheater, they better figure out what is going on and why the player is doing what they are doing.

You can play a fighter with persuade. My L6 fighter has 9. It's not that hard to get to! Just cross class, have high cha, and take SF. It's not like fighters are lacking for extra feats!

Seconding what Oroborus said. As far as I know, I have never, ever had a problem with anyone second-guessing my role-play on EfU, but I still get paranoid about it when I am in a complex RP situation.

The only times I've ever been called upon to roll dice by a DM it was for entirely reasonable IC purposes. However, I also know that I've been in situations that, if taken out of context, would certainly give the appearance of this kind of cheating.

For the record, I would be delighted to explain the reasons behind my role-play to anyone who wants to ask.

Sometimes I roll dice to decide how much food Tubbs eats. :lol:

Note that I did say private skillchecks.

I think that lying is probably the best reason for players to roll skill checks. In order to lie effectively you should have skill points in bluff.

It is far too easy to lie online. No one can see your facial expressions, your body language (people tend to look down and to the left when lying), or hear the tone of your voice. It is very easy to type up a nice lie and go with it.

The "Bluff" check gives the opposing PC the opportunity to recognize the lie if unsuccessful. If you feel a character metagames the roll to realize your are lying than it is bad form on their part. This isa supposed to be a RP server and if the opposing player does not "play along" when a very high Bluff roll is seen than I would simply avoid playing with them in the future.

-Kalos

You can emote facial expressions and shifty behavior if you have low to 0 skill points in bluff, Kalos.

Thanks. I will be pleasantly suprised when I see someone do this.

-Kalos

I think most issues have been brought up regarding this but I'll add my two cents. I've done the old roll a dice without getting the ok with the other PC.

However my faith in the community doesn't make me go "WTF I ROLLED A 20 AND YOUR NOT RUNNING!?!" when I roll a intimidate check against that PC goblin. I automatically assume its a very brave (or stupid) goblin and let fate take over.

Likewise for when I'm trying to lie my way out of a tricky situation and I end up being beat down and dry looted. It all depends on how lucky your feeling.

The odd dice check also adds more depth to rp instead of just saying "I've got 30 Bluff, believe me!"just like in RL your not always in top form and make mistakes. However doing a dice check for every single thing you do does get abit tedious.

So instead of getting annoyed when that unplanned dice check doesn't go your way, simply place some trust and faith in the other player and enjoy the rp caused by your IG choices.

I think a good situation for a roll, that has happened to me once, was when i was haggling with someone. I play a high charisma, with points in persuade and appraise. So i think this is fair to roll (of course if the partner agrees) and let luck see how things turn out. Obviously no outrageous ripoff, but i think this is one situation where we could use those persuade points in an IC moment!.