I don't know how other people feel, but I'm going to toss this thread out here and see what happens.

I would like to see the plot shield surrounding Sanctuary lifted. I would like to see Sanctuary be placed more firmly into the hands of players and watch the city rise or fall by their actions. What does this mean? Well...

- I would like to see the DM Factions around the city run by players. I can't role-play with NPC's without a DM, and having made the attempt I can safely say unless you consistently find the same DM again and again its futile. For all the coolness that is Azzam, all he does is stand around in the Watch House doing nothing. The Watch felt more 'real' when Fawkes was walking around, interacting with players, and you could RP with him. He would actually remember a past conversation, and could actually be involved with your plots. You can't do that with DM NPC's unless it's a DM run plot.

- Make the threats that face Sanctuary more real. I have tried very hard to make my characters take certain threats very seriously, and the response from other characters was mostly 'meh'. I believe that is because they subconsciously know that Sanctuary has a plot shield surrounding it. If that Drow or Illithid threat actually is serious - then I want to see it as a serious problem. If players don't respond to it, or respond poorly then the city should suffer the consequences. No one is going after that Illithid? Well then, face his army of thralls most of whom now happen to be your former friends. No one is dealing with that Drow? Well thanks to inaction, the Drow are now knocking at the gate and a lot of PC's find themselves taken away as slaves (equivalent of perma-death). The Council makes a stupid decision? Well then there are consequences for that, too.

- Present the city with realistic threats that it can handle. I dislike the fact that there are literally threats out there that even if the entire server united to try and defeat they would just be crushed. There is no hope of taking on that epic level dragon or that epic level Illithid. You're screwed if you try. Threats and such should be scaled down to give players a chance to deal with them.

- On the other side of the coin, I would actually like to see the city have a chance to prosper if they made good choices. It only takes one bad choice to ruin a hundred good ones.

- I would like it to be easier for player factions to establish themselves, and even have the ability to topple DM Factions to replace them.

Many of these things I've listed are already possible, but there always feels like (to me) there are OOC things blocking them from happening. I would love to see the server become even more dynamic and easier to impact by every character - not just the "coolest" or "most powerful" - but everyone. I would like everyone on the server to feel that they can make a diffrence for good or for ill, and when their character eventually dies that they can look back and relish the impact they have made.

Player factions have taken out DM factions, *looks at Ledskir and cries*

These are all possible, already exist, and nothing is OOCly blocking them from happening.

Congratulations, your wish was granted before you even posted!

But we play this game to have fun. If it can be impacted on by everyone- DMs would have to quit their lives, and start modifying it day and night to reflect whatever happens in the day- and frankly thats not fun either.

I thought EfU had a very good formula at start, well thought out, every NPCs had a clear plan of action, goals, personalities, histories- everything was really well-made...

The more you shoot these NPCs down, their replacement dont always carry the same artistic creativity in their design.

Allowing dynamic events to happen is cool, but it must be slow and prepared. So one event, doesnt screw up ten story-lines the DMs or players had in the bank.

I'll answer your questions, and respond with how I feel about each one of them.

Meldread - I would like to see the DM Factions around the city run by players. I can't role-play with NPC's without a DM, and having made the attempt I can safely say unless you consistently find the same DM again and again its futile. For all the coolness that is Azzam, all he does is stand around in the Watch House doing nothing. The Watch felt more 'real' when Fawkes was walking around, interacting with players, and you could RP with him. He would actually remember a past conversation, and could actually be involved with your plots. You can't do that with DM NPC's unless it's a DM run plot.

Having a PC Sheriff was certainly an experiment. Whether or not it is desirable for any PC to have that kind of power is not something all the DM's agree upon, but it is something we take into consideration from time to time. For the sake of the Watch faction and stability, for now it is most likely that a NPC will be running it for the majority of the time -- however, that's not to say we won't ever have a PC Sheriff again. Just because you can't get in touch with the Sheriff doesn't mean you can't get in touch with a senior officer, at any rate, and believe me, he takes their advice seriously as they are his trusted inner-coterie.

Make the threats that face Sanctuary more real. I have tried very hard to make my characters take certain threats very seriously, and the response from other characters was mostly 'meh'. I believe that is because they subconsciously know that Sanctuary has a plot shield surrounding it. If that Drow or Illithid threat actually is serious - then I want to see it as a serious problem. If players don't respond to it, or respond poorly then the city should suffer the consequences. No one is going after that Illithid? Well then, face his army of thralls most of whom now happen to be your former friends. No one is dealing with that Drow? Well thanks to inaction, the Drow are now knocking at the gate and a lot of PC's find themselves taken away as slaves (equivalent of perma-death). The Council makes a stupid decision? Well then there are consequences for that, too.

This has been happening for ages now. The reason the Lizardfolk attack on Sanctuary was so brutal, for example, was that the city refused to accept any allies that were evil in nature (lolz paladins on Council!), along with a few other varying factors. We have seen a shortage in metals cripple the Sanctuary economy, due to other decisions made -- we've seen a plague set in and last for ages due to the decisions of others as well.

As far as the enemy cities go - there are very good, and solid IC reasons as to why you don't see them come knocking on the door of the city each day. Feel free to investigate these.

I heard some formians just tried to maul the gates a few days ago... I wonder how PC's are dealing with this? You better believe PC response is going to determine the future of this series of events. ;)

Present the city with realistic threats that it can handle. I dislike the fact that there are literally threats out there that even if the entire server united to try and defeat they would just be crushed. There is no hope of taking on that epic level dragon or that epic level Illithid. You're screwed if you try. Threats and such should be scaled down to give players a chance to deal with them.

That is just the nature of the module you signed up to play. Yes, there are going to be drow out there with a martial prowess you can never hope to defeat. Yes, there are going to be illithid with creepy inns that have had a millenia of time to hone their arcane skills. That said, you shouldn't be so sure about anything. How do you know things can't be beaten? That epic level dragon may have a weakness you've never bothered to investigate. That illithid city may have a backdoor, a trap-door, or something or other they've not bothered to secure tightly. Basically, you'll lose a character if you're wrong on this one, but become a hero if you should succeed. Perhaps this sort of contrast doesn't appeal to you, but it sure as hell does to me.

On the other side of the coin, I would actually like to see the city have a chance to prosper if they made good choices. It only takes one bad choice to ruin a hundred good ones.

This is all based on IC decisions. I am becoming redundant, but we have had times in the past where our Councilors would refuse to make deals with evil beings in the past, and it really cost the city in more ways than one. (Etorix/Shadow Tribe/... the list goes on)

I would like it to be easier for player factions to establish themselves, and even have the ability to topple DM Factions to replace them.

We removed the Watch from Lower (Big Bill Danielson died), the Ghaunadaurans were run out of town, the Nancies were subdued for a while, the Ledskirs are all dead, the Seeker main HQ is closed down, we built a stew shop for Worn, a tiefling was running the Steady Hand for a while, there is a huge player faction of dwarves below Upper. Maybe I missed one? We work right alongside PC's that want to make change, all you need to do is look at the history, yes.

Many of these things I've listed are already possible, but there always feels like (to me) there are OOC things blocking them from happening. I would love to see the server become even more dynamic and easier to impact by every character - not just the "coolest" or "most powerful" - but everyone. I would like everyone on the server to feel that they can make a diffrence for good or for ill, and when their character eventually dies that they can look back and relish the impact they have made.

Hope I answered your questions.

Yes. Actually. What Metro said.

Forgot to mention Tigereyes and Maimed Minotaur too.

The Ghaunadaurans weren't run out of town >_<

Meldread,

I just want to take the time to mention that I've killed a god in EfU. Indirectly, and not alone, but I did.

No boasting intended. Cough, cough.

Thanks for your time, Anthee

Anthee Meldread,

I just want to take the time to mention that I've killed a god in EfU. Indirectly, and not alone, but I did.

No boasting intended. Cough, cough.

Thanks for your time, Anthee

Not only that, but we raised another god in the process. :wink:

Ahh yes. Moander, my dream came true.

-.-

Was awesome

And Meldread, yes, it is tough to start a player faction. But once you start getting things done, people will flock, or turn to destroy you! :twisted:

I believe we have a delightful compromise between player and DM contribution to the server.

Being able to affect the world is one of the main things that attracted me to playing on this server. Over the year I've been here I've loved to read about all of those amazing characters who have been able to accomplish such feats. Sometimes I'm discouraged since I feel like I've never been in on any of it. Its not clear to me that any adjustments to the way the server is run like Meldread suggests would help.

I'm in favor of PC run factions, but if the players are on the other side of the world or something, you may be even worse off getting in touch with them.

Big server plots like those with other Underdark races have always been neat, but I feel like they are a little hard to get involved in. Usually a small group of players know all about it and keep it relatively secret IC, which makes sense.

I guess as much as I would like it to be easier to make an impact, I take it as part of the challenge of the server. Your character really has to fight a lot of factors to make a mark. Many of these challenges are IC, but there are OOC obstacles too.

Also people/characters being indifferent to potential, but not present dangers is a human trait, look around the real world for countless examples. (Unfortunately) something really has to hit home to inspire most people.

Actually, I agree with Meldread on one major point.

There is a tendency to make PCs the key of the module. Things revolve around the PCs so entirely, so strongly, that NPCs become an impediment on many levels.

I think, speaking as the PC who played the Sheriff that I loved it on most levels. My only frustration came when dealing with NPCs who were often unpredictable, acted strangely and out of character, or simply did not act at all when I'd have expected them to.

On the other level, I've seen what happens when everything is PC driven entirely and it starts looking silly. A popular PC is recruiting for a faction, tons of players come to work for him, yet no NPC reacts. The Stouts had at one point nearly every dwarf PC in their ranks, not a single NPC that I'm aware of at all though.

Overall, there is a good balance attempted, but not always achieved.

I can say as a Spellguard Agent that right now, our "commander" is horrible. To the point where almost ANY PC as a leader would be prefered by all of us, so we can get some direction from our faction leadership on how to act and what will get us promoted and not executed.

Ideally, I think players should take over leadership of all factions, with DMs worrying about how people will view that faction if it screws up badly. Playing a few key NPCs who typically are neutral on most issues, but can counter balance out of control stupidity.

When I use to run Vampire LARPS that is how I ran things. Players handled everything, and it worked. Very well I may add. I think EfU is a good medium and setting for this.

DMs normally control leaders because it is easier to represent a faction from the top. However, it is tough for the players in the faction when your "top" is AFK, busy with real life, not able to communicate every detail about what happened to one of his personalities one day and not to his other personality the next day.

I certainly think it is possible to have even a DM faction run by a PC at the top, and that PC can be kept in check by his NPC membership.

I'm sure when Fawkes was the Sheriff, had he really abused his power or authority his men would have turned against him. I know some players claimed this, and a few DMs perhaps felt the same which caused some situations where NPCs reacted in ways I'd never expected them to react. Yet, I'd be surprised if any member of the Watch complained about the character in charge of the Watch. I'd be very surprised if any PC complained from outside the Watch.

It was a good expirament in my mind, one open for repetition.

I agree with Oroborous. PC run factions are a hell of a lot preferable than NPC run factions.

Speaking from a Pc Who was starting a pc faction That eventually died off. (skull claimers anyone?)

I find pc factions hard and literlaly impossible to Run. Specifically simple things like a Lock smith when you acquire a Base is FOIG. Despite Finding a base in the first place.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Player factions have taken out DM factions, *looks at Ledskir and cries*

Also I dont consider the Nancies a Pc Faction considering it was a gang started and ran by Npcs that just happened to slaughtered and reduced into small numbers

I apologize because when I wrote the original post I didn't have much time. So I'm going to try and respond and give some clarifications.

I realize that by and large this is how the server works. I can safely say that each of my characters have had impacts on the server to varying degrees. However, I just find it to be a complete struggle - it sucks up so much time almost every single day. And it would be nice to just log on, role-play and have it happen naturally. I don't really like the concept of "earn" it. Earning something sounds too much like a job and not enough like a game, and I really think that for some people - myself included - who want to make the server an interesting and great place to play that we get burnt out. That we spend too much time trying to "earn" stuff that we eventually reach the point where getting what you want becomes almost anti-climatic.

That is why I made the suggestion about players having more control over the DM factions. So much burden is shifted from players to DM's. I can't go up and interact with Azzam or any number of other NPC's without a DM present, and if I want to be involved with that NPC in any significant way I have to keep finding the same DM which isn't always possible. Yet, if a PC has that power and ability then I can interact with that character anytime they are around. I don't have to worry about a DM being busy, or have the NPC not remember previous interactions.

Take for example an event that has certainly impacted the Kossuth Faction. Yesterday there was a battle of the Kossuth Faction vs a Malarite. This wasn't planned or scheduled. It just happened. This event has serious repercussions, and it would never have been possible with NPC's involved. It likely would have never happened. There are so many events like this that happen on the server, and yet over all there isn't that much impact. When its over it is quickly forgotten even though the results of the event could wipe out an entire faction or start a religious war.

There are just so many events like this and over all it just doesn't feel important in the context of the server.

My second main point was the survivalist nature of the server. A big part of Sanctuary's struggle is its existence against the environment. That doesn't necessarily mean the cities struggle against its surrounding enemies but literally the entire environment.

An example of this is the recent metal shortage. This was a big deal for NPC's but for PC's you could barely notice them having much of a care. I've tried to have almost every PC I had take the situation seriously, but really it impacted my characters so little it became a secondary, sometimes even non-existent goal.

There really is a serious disconnect between what the NPC's experience and what the PC's experience. It's almost as if sometimes they live in two separate cities. Really, at times living in Sanctuary feels like the equivalent of living in a rural backwater village on the surface. There isn't a whole lot going on aside from lots of problems.

Another good example is Council Elections. A large majority of characters simply don't care who gets elected to the Council, I'm not sure if it's because of OOC disinterest or dislike of politics, but there should be a very real sense of 'Oh my god... if this crazy bastard gets elected we're all doomed.' There seems to be a lack of a real sense of urgency or fear... or anything aside from indifference on the part of many characters.

When someone creates a new character they arrive within the city and they simply begin looking at how to begin leveling up. They don't stop to question their being in the Underdark. They aren't traumatized from being a slave. They don't even question why a city of slaves exists. It's all just accepted. I'm guilty of this as well, but I try and make attempts to create characters that fit the situation. My first character Melrick, for example, was a slave of the Drow for several years. This event impacted him so badly that it literally haunted him until the day he died. He was motivated completely by fear of falling back into slavery. He became bent on gaining power simply because he believed that if he had enough power he would never again feel vulnerable or fall back into the hands of the Drow. He only survived Drow slavery through obedience and a willingness to serve without question, even as he plotted his freedom. So when he arrived in Sanctuary he began to do the same. He was so desperate that he was willing to sell his soul for power, and even then that was not enough. Nothing he did was ever enough because with every bit of power he gained he faced new challenges that made him vulnerable. Eventually, he began to become paranoid and unhinged. Power was everything, it was safety, and yet no matter how much he gained he never felt safe enough.

How many people really think about how being a slave would have impacted their character? How would you react if you were taken into slavery, watched as your friend, child or parent was brutally tortured for pleasure and then killed slowly as you were forced to watch. How would you feel if each and every day of your life you were made to feel as if you were nothing more than an animal and treated like one? How would you feel if you knew your very life was expendable, and how would you feel to be degraded, humiliated and tortured for pleasure? These are the things that you would face in Drow Slavery. This is something that should consume every free and intelligent person in Sanctuary with absolute terror, and it may for NPC's but for PC's? It really doesn't. Not like it should.

And that's my point there seems to be a disconnect between the reality that the characters are living in with how that reality is perceived by the players of the characters.

I'm not really sure how to bring that reality to the players, but I believe a disconnect really does exist. There seems to be too much focus on questing and adventuring and not enough of... just surviving. Which I think is really the core part of what Sanctuary is about.

I might be the only one that feels this way, but I am throwing it out there to discuss.

Meldread

I realize that by and large this is how the server works. I can safely say that each of my characters have had impacts on the server to varying degrees. However, I just find it to be a complete struggle - it sucks up so much time almost every single day. And it would be nice to just log on, role-play and have it happen naturally. I don't really like the concept of "earn" it. Earning something sounds too much like a job and not enough like a game, and I really think that for some people - myself included - who want to make the server an interesting and great place to play that we get burnt out. That we spend too much time trying to "earn" stuff that we eventually reach the point where getting what you want becomes almost anti-climatic.

You can't actually make an impression on the server unless you earn it...I don't understand! You're saying sitting about and doing nothing, rather than pushing your PC's goals and agendas hard (and in turn involving lots of others and fostering healthy conflict etc) should mean you have an impact? Doesn't make much sense, though it could be I misinterpreted you!

Meldread That is why I made the suggestion about players having more control over the DM factions. So much burden is shifted from players to DM's. I can't go up and interact with Azzam or any number of other NPC's without a DM present, and if I want to be involved with that NPC in any significant way I have to keep finding the same DM which isn't always possible. Yet, if a PC has that power and ability then I can interact with that character anytime they are around. I don't have to worry about a DM being busy, or have the NPC not remember previous interactions.

Its much easier to get into contact with a DM (of which, there are many) than a singular PC who only logs on at certain times. Also, if the NPC for some reason says something entirely different to what they did the day before, a polite tell letting the new DM know what went down takes only a few seconds.

Meldread Take for example an event that has certainly impacted the Kossuth Faction. Yesterday there was a battle of the Kossuth Faction vs a Malarite. This wasn't planned or scheduled. It just happened. This event has serious repercussions, and it would never have been possible with NPC's involved. It likely would have never happened. There are so many events like this that happen on the server, and yet over all there isn't that much impact. When its over it is quickly forgotten even though the results of the event could wipe out an entire faction or start a religious war.

I oversaw that, and don't understand what you mean when you say it could never have happened if NPCs had become involved...

Meldread Lots of stuff about the lack of survivalist mentality amongst PCs.

Well, appreciate that people play here for hours each day and many of us have done so for years; it is a game, and yes there will be a certain level of disconnection between how a PC should perhaps act after being in slavery for so long, and how PCs do act. This is, however, the prerogative of the player himself; he decides how he wants to play his PC. Appreciate also that a large number of PCs were born in Sanctuary and never lived in chains at the hands of the drow like others did.

Having said that, it only earns you bonus points if you do rock out with your post-slavery RP!

I had a far longer post typed up, but I just lost it when I hit submit, so I'll make this one shorter and to the point.

You are not the only kid in the sandbox on EfU. The responsibility of the DM team is to ensure that all players-be they super-hardcore, casual, forum-inclined, RP-inclined, combat/quest-inclined-all players have a chance to find something interesting, unique, and fun for them on EfU. You, Meldread, are a very intense, hardcore, realistic player, and this is a tremendous asset to the server and makes you an incredibly impressive roleplayer; however, a lot of people are not so interested in being quite that involved with the server, or quite that realistic with their character portrayals, and there is nothing wrong with that. EfU caters to a wide variety of players, and there will always be opportunities for you to express your own playstyle; yet your playstyle and that of others like you cannot be forced upon the server as a whole, as the setting must be fair and equitable for all players involved.

In terms of the faction dynamics-there will always be checks and balances in place to keep certain factions and bodies in line, and to preserve the basic structure of the setting of Sanctuary. That being said, PCs truly do drive the factions they are involved in; they are, by and large, the public face of that faction to the rest of the server, and their actions can slowly change the faction they are in, create an impression of that faction to other characters, and really truly account for the faction. Yes, there will be NPC checks on certain factions to ensure that they do not become too twisted away from their main design; this isn't because the players are bad or player dynamics are bad, but because the extremity of the character simply does not fit with the faction and/or the setting. Adventurers truly do drive Sanctuary, and the Council truly can have a big impact, if it works at it; yet, the key is that it has to be worked at. Nothing in a game-be it football, baseball, basketball, Halo 3, or NWN-comes free, and you do have to earn and put in effort to have fun.

In short, I guess what I'm saying is while your concerns may seem valid at first blush from your point of view, they really are already in place to the best extent they can be on the server. Anything further would be counter-productive to the server as a whole; maybe better for you and yours, but remember, we all share the same sandbox.

Let's make it a fun, happy place, full of love and e-girl snuggling.

-SaRF

You can't actually make an impression on the server unless you earn it...I don't understand! You're saying sitting about and doing nothing, rather than pushing your PC's goals and agendas hard (and in turn involving lots of others and fostering healthy conflict etc) should mean you have an impact? Doesn't make much sense, though it could be I misinterpreted you!

Take Oro's comment about the Stouthearts for example. At one point just about every PC Dwarf was a member of their faction. Yet over all, had every Stoutheart dropped dead in a single day - what impact would that have had on Sanctuary? I can't really think of anything at all.

I think rather than having the burden completely resting on the players shoulders that it should be more along the lines of the carrot and the stick. Let me try and give you an example.

I've had cool DM loot in the past. I've had powerful DM loot that was so powerful that it had to be taken away. However, none of that mattered to me as much as one piece of DM loot that by far - and it was essentially worthless in terms of power. It was a Charred Heart of a Priest of Kelemvor my character had killed. That priest had been a very close friend of my character's and due to IC events they began to become estranged. They were both battling inner demons and eventually events escalated to the point where it came to blows. My character killed him, and because of his actions wanted to punish him. He delivered his heart to his god and that heart was eventually returned to him. It allowed him to summon a Shadow once per day which lasted for 24 hours. The Shadow was incredibly weak, but to me that item was invaluable. It made me feel as if I had accomplished something - that I had changed the gameworld and that my character held in his hands proof of it.

This was something that anyone could have accomplished. It didn't require huge investments of time. It didn't require management skills. It was completely player driven, I don't even think a DM was there to see the PvP, and the heart was given as sacrifice. The only reason a DM found out was because I copied and pasted the log and sent it via PM.

It's little things like this that remind players that they are in a dynamic world and that their actions matter.

Why can't a PC who starts a gang in Lower Sanctuary and makes the attempt to recruit NPC's have one or two NPC's show up sporting their gang colors? It's not so much about trying to earn a faction base, or any of that stuff - it's about the world changing to reflect player actions. To give the impression of making a difference.

One of the best and coolest things done last Council Election was when NPC's in the Town Hall began talking about the various candidates. I loved it. It added so much to the server and just made the whole process feel that much more 'real' and 'dynamic.' I loved the flyers laying outside the Town Hall. All of it just made the game so much more fun and interesting.

---

I oversaw that, and don't understand what you mean when you say it could never have happened if NPCs had become involved...

What I was saying was that it likely would not have happened because it wasn't something that was planned. It just happened. If any of the different groups involved had been NPC's the outcome likely would have been completely different. However, the main difference would have been the aftermath. I can't RP religious strife with NPC's and anger against them for their actions without a DM. I can't fathom a DM having enough time or inclination to possess an NPC only so my character can try and have them see the error of their ways, repent and join his faith. The only reaction that my character could have with that NPC is to basically consider him "too lost for redemption" and kill him, because that's simpler for everyone involved.

When I played Dedrick so much rode on the fact that I needed to win the support of someone of higher rank than Sunellar. I tried very hard to show that Dedrick was working hard, even though most of his actions were constrained, but all of the people above Sunellar in rank were NPC's. So when Azzam turned against Dedrick in the end, he was compelled - having no alternative - to carry out the actions that he did leading up to the present situation. Had Azzam been a player Dedrick could have attempted to reason with him, and perhaps the event may have never even taken place.

Now that I am playing Hoaradin and he is running for Council so much rides on the fact that he must convince NPC's to vote for him. However, to interact with those NPC's is nearly impossible outside of what I've already done. (Making a public announcement post stating how Hoaradin is trying to deal with those NPC's.) I've questioned DM's trying to find out general things Hoaradin should be finding out (or rather - should already know) about the NPC citizens. I've learned of huge disconnects between how players perceive something and NPC's perceive something. On the one hand I need NPC support to win an election, but on the other I'm RPing with PC's and not NPC's. It is almost bizarre - as if PC's live in one reality and the NPC's in another.

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Which brings me to my point about the survival nature of the server. I'm not talking about danger level so much as atmosphere. Sanctuary is completely impoverished and poor. Most of its people do not have steady jobs, going from one to the next on an almost day-by-day basis. Life is tough. Yet I think you could take almost any PC out of Sanctuary and place them on the surface, in a rural village and pretty much get the same results. There is a lack of awareness and a disconnect from what it's like to live in Sanctuary and be in the Underdark.

A suggestion: I think it would help if when you create a new character, and select your portal, you are given a description of what your character has likely experienced up until that point. If you select to begin in Upper Sanctuary, you should be informed of what it is like to live there on a day-to-day basis. What do the people eat? Where do most people live? What is the general attitude of the people there? If you select the portal to begin in the Underdark, you should also be given the ability to select a number of different choices such as: Escaped Slave of the Drow, Escaped Slave of Beholders, Escaped Slave of Illithid, From the Surface, etc. Each of those detailing what your experiences most likely would have been like up until that point. If you select "Escaped Slave of the Drow" you should be told of what the average Drow slave experiences on a daily basis. What their lives are like, and all other things that would give a new PC a feel for their characters experiences.

I also think that when the city faces a crisis such as the metal shortage the PC's should be effected more. Overall, PC's weren't effected by the metal crisis, perhaps this was in large part due to the fact of how the economy is largely player-to-player, and that anything that costs more in Sanctuary could have been purchased cheaper and made of better quality elsewhere.

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SaRF,

It isn't just about me it's about everyone. It's about the server as a whole. I know I can do all those things. I've done it. I've been involved with some of them either directly or indirectly. The problem I believe is that it's just too difficult. Casual players in a lot of cases will find themselves easily locked out, especially if they are new players. For me personally, trying to accomplish some things are so difficult that it creates burn out. I might simply lack the stamina of others, though.

However, I just want everyone to feel 'Wowed' when they log on. I want everyone to feel that every action they take has repercussions for both good and ill. I want people to be lured into plots and just have an insanely good time. When people's characters die I don't want people to feel upset or disappointed, I want them to look back on those characters and feel proud of achievements they have made and know that they have left a mark on Sanctuary. That is what I want for myself and what I want for others.

So it's not a matter of trying to hog the sandbox as much as it is trying to ensure there is enough sand for everyone.

Also, I know I'm a bit more hardcore than a lot of people. I honestly wouldn't care if the entire city collapsed and everyone was forced to live in the Cave Worm Cave, huddled around a single camp fire. The only thing that would have mattered to me is that the collapse was player-driven, that it was fun, and that other players had a chance to prevent it from happening. I'm sure maybe 98% or more would disagree with me on that, but honestly I'm not a fan of glass ceilings. I believe very firmly in letting player actions decide the fate of Sanctuary, be it for good or for ill. No magic get out of jail free cards. No so-and-so is going to save you. You're on your own. You either fail or you succeed.

For me, personally, I would have just as much fun - maybe even more - trying to rebuild Sanctuary from scratch as I would now. In fact, I would love that opportunity! What better way to leave your mark or influence?

Meldread Also, I know I'm a bit more hardcore than a lot of people. I honestly wouldn't care if the entire city collapsed and everyone was forced to live in the Cave Worm Cave, huddled around a single camp fire. The only thing that would have mattered to me is that the collapse was player-driven, that it was fun, and that other players had a chance to prevent it from happening. I'm sure maybe 98% or more would disagree with me on that, but honestly I'm not a fan of glass ceilings. I believe very firmly in letting player actions decide the fate of Sanctuary, be it for good or for ill. No magic get out of jail free cards. No so-and-so is going to save you. You're on your own. You either fail or you succeed.

For me, personally, I would have just as much fun - maybe even more - trying to rebuild Sanctuary from scratch as I would now. In fact, I would love that opportunity! What better way to leave your mark or influence?

That sort of situation may sound fun in theory, but I can guarantee you playing in an obliterated waste-land Sanctuary would be incredibly boring for nearly everyone that plays here. (Myself included.)

MadCaddies Its much easier to get into contact with a DM (of which, there are many) than a singular PC who only logs on at certain times.

I like the way our DMs work, but, as much as I know forum work can be dreadfully tedious, it often is the easiest way for players to communicate with key NPCs (and there are a heck of a lot of those), and nothing is more off-putting than a key NPC you can't talk to (for whatever reason).

That may be true, but at the same time I have to wonder what Sanctuary would have looked like had it been allowed to grow and develop organically. I also think there would be a much greater appreciation for the luxuries experienced by PC's and a real acknowledgement of just how hard it is to survive in the Underdark. There seems to be so much being taken for granted. The Watch will always protect you. The Spellguard will always be there. The Drow won't storm the city streets and begin recapturing lost slaves. The Illithid and his Thralls won't take over the city if they aren't stopped. So on and so forth.

This is actually giving me some ideas... :P

But Meldread, these are -your- ideas. I don't see a vast majority of other players chiming in and going: "Yes, we want to be super-hardcore players, forced to eke out a meager existence by the skin of our teeth." You are trying to make the sandbox fit -your- ideal of what it should be; you are not helping the others pile up sand to build something together. That's why your ideas and your points, though valid from -your- perspective, cannot and will not apply to the server as a whole; they do not represent the will of the DM Team or of a vast majority of the players-or of the server designer.

You have your ideas, and your vision of what you like to do with your PCs; there are other players like you out there who can help you with that. But the server as a whole cannot and will not change to represent the views of a select group of players. It has to be kept fun, open, and accessible to everyone. Players who want to become hardcore can and do; players who want to stay casual, or find a middle-ground, can and do. That is what a good playerworld is, and that is why obligatory roleplaying restrictions and harsher attitudes cannot be imposed upon other players, no matter how much it might seem to enhance the setting as a whole.

I think this thread needs a Kiaring post.

-SaRF

SaRF,

As far as I am aware that's pretty much how the server already is except that it isn't readily visible to players. Sanctuary -is- eeking out a meager existence by the skin of it's teeth. It -is- on the verge of collapse. My point is that there is a disconnect between how Sanctuary actually is in reality and how we (as players) perceive it to be. I am not saying "This is the way Sanctuary -should- be" I am saying "This is the way Sanctuary -is-, how come we don't see it?"

Although, I do agree that there is room for everyone, and I suppose that is the reason we don't see it. I just wish it was more represented so the atmosphere of the city could more influence role-playing within it.

As a side note, Commander Simms hasn't been seen in-person for something like 40 years, and begrudgingly appears as a projection on rare occasions. The difficulty contacting him is entirely IC.

Edit: Who said Sanctuary was on the verge of collapse? Sure, the communities are splintered, but the Spellguard's Machine projects are being pursued in double-time and the Watch is at the peak of its strength in server (though not setting) history. Lower is totally and completely free, with streets running red and everybody's as happy, crazy and savage as they've ever been. NPCs have expressed worry about impending doom when they think it's coming, and consequences have occurred for dismissing them.

AScottBay As a side note, Commander Simms hasn't been seen in-person for something like 40 years, and begrudgingly appears as a projection on rare occasions. The difficulty contacting him is entirely IC.

As much as I see your point of view there are a group of players, some of who may not post here who like stability.

That is not to say they never want anything interesting to happen, or that they never want some change, but it is to say that they like the server being sanctuary and underdark. For alot of players EFU holds a certain level of familiarity, a certatin homey field and while areas like mycropolis, and various factions may come and go they always like the basic idea that it is there. That when they log in sanctuary is still there. That they won't suddenly log in one day to find themselves living in a orog slave camp.

Yes dynamics are interesting but you have some very intersting dynamics at work right now. That said my only comment is to agree with the poster who semi negated MadCaddies statement about dms. I have never once had a dm be as easy for scheduling as a player. Speaking as someone who took weeks to contact various pcs and npcs I can say in general it is almost always easier to pm a pc and get a exact time, and figure something out. I don't blame the dms but very very very few dms I have ever met can go, "Yes I am usually on ...." I almost always get, "I have no idea of when I am on, just find me on."

Just my two cents. I like the server and like the way it is.

So, NPCs might not be available at all times. This is regretable, but-

It is realistic!

It's regretable when it's not all the time. It's bad when it's one day a week.

I do not dispute that npcs having a regular schedule makes sense. However I know from personal experience it is far easier to contact players who are in factions then dms, even with time zones.

Like snoteye said, I don't expect them free all the time, but one day a week is not good either.

Sorry, Snoteye.

We'll try to lift our game :(

Sure, having NPC's not always available is realistic, but PC's aren't always available either. What is unrealistic is how Azzam seemed to forget what happened from one hour to the next, and when he seemed to have a bad case of Dissociative Identity Disorder. :P (Which was actually funny.)

This thread has descended into absurdity. Obviously, no two DMs are going to play the same NPC exactly alike-this is just a fact you have to live with. If a DM isn't apprised of a situation, shoot him a tell and let him know what you discussed previously.

At any rate, we are now discussing what-why inherent NPC problems mean we should let PCs take the reins? Why? It's been made abundantly clear what the majority stance of the DM team and the playerbase is; what is there left to discuss here? What you want is never going to happen, and that is pretty much the final word. If you want to bring the discussion onto a more constructive path, it might have merit, but tossing out mocking, pointless comments is not going to keep this argument alive.

-SaRF

SaRF, you're sounding more hostile than helpful. A discussion is held to suggest ideas and discuss your point of view. You can't say, "Now shut up, clearly I and a lot of DMs don't agree with you." Well, you did more or less, but its not kosher.

A suggestion: I think it would help if when you create a new character, and select your portal, you are given a description of what your character has likely experienced up until that point. If you select to begin in Upper Sanctuary, you should be informed of what it is like to live there on a day-to-day basis. What do the people eat? Where do most people live? What is the general attitude of the people there? If you select the portal to begin in the Underdark, you should also be given the ability to select a number of different choices such as: Escaped Slave of the Drow, Escaped Slave of Beholders, Escaped Slave of Illithid, From the Surface, etc. Each of those detailing what your experiences most likely would have been like up until that point. If you select "Escaped Slave of the Drow" you should be told of what the average Drow slave experiences on a daily basis. What their lives are like, and all other things that would give a new PC a feel for their characters experiences.

I agree with the general theory Meldread shot out here.

What I'd like at least is that NPCs really spoke their minds. Explain why they approve of some things and not others.

I've got to say, I'm baffled why NPCs all seem to support Azzam. He really does look like a tyrant who has sought to quash the Council. Now, I'm sure there are very good reasons he's so popular, but I couldn't figure them out just talking to NPCs. I'd have to talk to a DM possessed NPC.

So essentially, it'd really help if the NPCs spoke about what is going on in their world.

"I'm so happy! Everyone in Lower is free to kill each other!"

"I'm so happy, our Sheriff is crushing the weak and pathetic council down finally."

"I'm so happy, there is finally metal again!"

I loved the Disgruntled and Content citizens. I'd love it more if they represented the general feeling of their areas. If 30% of the city is content and 70% Disgruntled, it'd give political aggressive characters room to wiggle themselves into control.

I'll also posit that when Fawkes was the Sheriff it was not always easy for every PC to get in touch with him. I'd be surprised if anyone weighed in and said it was harder to get in touch with him than it was to get in touch with a DM though.

With the Spellguard, just to interject: Sure, Simms is tough to get a hold of I suppose. However, someone supposedly commands the Spellguard, and he rarely shows up and when he does, he's got a bad case of multiple personalities. I'm not sure what is causing it, but it'd be nice to see it not be.

It'd have been terrific back when I played Mandarin and gave public sermons all the time if at least a few NPCs converted. Same for any priest that really goes out of his way to make converts.

The ultimate difference is this:

NPCs in Sanctuary often look like background noise.

This is fairly normal in a PW because it takes some effort to figure out how the NPCs en masse and as individuals will react to player actions.

NPCs in Sanctuary could look like active participants in the world.

I'd find this ideal. I've seen it to lesser or greater extents, but the more I see it the more it'd please me. Part of the EfU experiment as I understand it was to create a world that really changes with the players. That is done here to a greater extant than any other PW I've played on, but just because things are good hardly means you can't ask them to be great.

I think in part, the experiment has proven that you can let PCs control just about everything and it still works. I know no one took me aside as Sheriff and said, "this isn't working". I think the players were satisfied with things. Part of the responsibility of being Sheriff though, I felt, was ensuring that I used the forums a great deal so that I could keep in touch even with players in far flung time zones.

It may take a certain kind of hard-core player to be the PC in charge of a DM composed faction, but I know it can be done and was entertaining on many levels for many players too.

Oroborous, a discussion also has to reach a conclusion, or it is simply a never-ending, pointless topic. The simple, inescapable fact of the matter is that yes, the DMs could always do more; yet ultimately, their distribution of time is limited, and creating an elaborate portrayal of many more NPCs in-game is not largely conducive to the majority of the playerbase. Your main complaint also seems to be that the NPCs do not conform to your idea of how they should act, and you are not willing to accept the reasoning for their actions unless it is spelled out for you in black and white. You'll no doubt dispute this, and feel free to; but your complaints about NPCs being "background noise" are not really correct. I don't expect you see or understand the rationale behind the NPCs as a whole, nor should you; but I do think it exists and that it will respond well in certain situations that might call for it.

Factions can work with PCs in control of them, sure. Yet letting PCs take control of -every- faction, or nearly so, would have the effect of detaching the DMs from a situation where they can use their own NPCs to influence the server setting, and force them to respond even more heavily to the machinations and reactions of PCs, and be responsible for a much larger number of NPCs if it becomes necessary to oppose the PC in charge. While this may be ideal, it just simply is not feasible with the DM resources currently as they are, nor do I think it is preferable from the majority of the DMs' and playerbase's perspective.

The simple fact of the matter is that EfU is, by and large, a server that is often enhanced as much by its secrets and the plottings that go on under the surface as the readily-apparent and blatant intrigue of the setting. The Machine is the most blatant example of this, but the various veils of secrecy surrounding events in the city itself is also a part of this; yes, some of this is simply suspension of disbelief because the DMs cannot handle it all, but the rest of it is intentional.

I'd also like to note that taking away creative freedom-in essence, attempting to "enforce" a mandatory style of play based upon what manner you arrived at Sanctuary-is something most players would frown upon heavily. For better or worse, the server and setting are defined by the way players create their characters and interact with them; instead of wishing for a harsher, realistic portrayal from everyone that doesn't exist and shouldn't, you should just accept that other players have different styles and takes on their character within the setting than you, and work with this as you will.

In short, you are asking for what cannot really be done, and what most people would not want to see done; whether it is "kosher" or not, I am not afraid to say that I do not see your arguments and your discussion generating any inclination to change the server to accomodate your perspective. As this topic has pretty much ground into an extreme dead-end, I'm not going to bother posting again; feel free to disparage me endlessly in your next post if it works for you.

-SaRF

I am neutral on this topic, but that, SaRF, is a very disappointing post of yours and is against everything the word "debate" stands for. Also, it is not up to you to decide when a topic has reached a dead-end or not, I am quite sure the moderators are much better suited to decide that.

Edit: Oh, Dan informs me you were most likely being sarcastic. I didn't expect that on the EFU forums, to say the least. Carry on.

wcsherry

I heard some formians just tried to maul the gates a few days ago... I wonder how PC's are dealing with this? You better believe PC response is going to determine the future of this series of events. ;)

As an aside, this event has been very much played down. This is how I am aware this even happened.

1. Logging on shortly after the event took place, a found the remains of a creature (not a dead npc or something, just a bag that randomly drops off a monster when you kill it) at the upper gate that was some type of formian npc. There were no PCs or NPCs talking about it.

2. A day or two later a PC said something about a formian in a conversation, but wasn't talking about the attack.

And of course, I wasn't sure of what the exact nature of the event was until...

3. I read your reply in this thread that said there was a formian attack.

I have a PC right now that would be more than happy to respond to this event, but despite being very active, I didn't hear about it at all. Perhaps the problem isn't that Sanctuary doesn't seem like it won't get wiped due to a "plot shield," it's that a good chunk of the playerbase probably doesn't even have an inkling that there's even anything threatening Sanctuary. Yes, everyone knows there's duergar, mindflayers, and drow that would like nothing more than to eat or enslave us, but it is assumed that these threats don't want to attack Sanctuary for some unknown reason.

I would recommend, for this and future events that prompt action from the bulk of the playerbase, finding ways to make sure more people know as a DM. While players can take the ball and run with it (as is the case for other in game happenings I'm aware of), it doesn't always happen that way.

I have to agree with Semli, I've been active on the server for the last 4 or 5 days and I haven't heard a thing about Formians until this forum. I think, there's something slightly wrong if that's something that'll affect the entire server.

In regards to the Formians attack isent that what major events in the public notices forum is for? to record events that the average town person would be talking about and what most people in town would know of? (If im not mistaken the Formians attack is the one about giant ants right? so its already up there.)

Dilandau Kale In regards to the Formians attack isent that what major events in the public notices forum is for? to record events that the average town person would be talking about and what most people in town would know of? (If im not mistaken the Formians attack is the one about giant ants right? so its already up there.)

Hey thanks, I hadn't noticed this post before detailing all the major events that DMs do. Boy, is my face red. :oops:

I'd still argue that if this is the only way to know about it short of actually being at the event, then yeah, some people will miss it. I've known a few people who were fairly active in games without dealing with the forums too much. I respect that there's only so much time during the day for the DMs and all, but considering what may be at stake for just ignoring this one...

Anyhow, I have to find a way to live with being mentally challenged enough to miss the "OMG EVENTS HEER" thread.

I can understand the view that some events arent reported enough Ig. However (and no offence to Wcsherry) I believe the formian attack is a bad example because from the description it says that the attack was beat off with little loses. Just like in real life bad news is often talked about and reported more than good news.

If the attack had breached the gates and caused horrific amounts of bloodshed then it would be more wildly reported.

Let's consider some factions we've seen in the past and present. Tigereyes, Dirty Nancies, Ledskir Crew. Tigereyes were one of the biggest DM factions in the server's history, but through player actions it was overthrown. Dirty Nancies and the Ledskir Crew were both designed by Calculor in a fashion where players were actually supposed to take over the gangs. As already seen, the Dirty Nancies were overthrown, and then The Ledskir Crew when the Nancies made their comeback. Today, the Dirty Nancies are no longer labeled "DM Faction" on the forums, but instead as "Player Faction." (Hint: Any member of the Dirty Nancies can make that leap and try to become the leader for the leaderless gang! The drunken Eddy Eyelashes isn't going to do anything.)

As it has done in the past, the gameworld will reflect the actions of players. The trick is whether people are willing to take a risk. If you disagree with Azzam's idealism, consider throwing him over as Sheriff. Will it be easy? No. Is it possible? Yes. Know that some feats are easier to take than others. To become the leader of the Dirty Nancies will be extremely easy. To become the leader of the Spellguard will be very difficult. Do not be discouraged by challenge. Instead, learn to embrace it! Those characters who have hit the "big time," so to speak, took a big risk. They could've died and be forgotten, but they succeeded and are still remembered today.

While the ideal gameworld will have some sort of contribution for and from every player, this is not plausible. Consider this from a DM's perspective. While I would like to give a very minor custom club, token or something to every new person that walks into Sanctuary, I can't make that effort. Instead, when I plan out a plot, spice, or whatever, I include established characters into this plan. People have this tendency to change between characters rapidly as they search for the one they would like to stick with. My worry is that I can put a lot of work to help out someone's character, but that this or that person will one day switch characters, get killed, etc. Frankly, a character made to last is a better investment. That way the character grows, people begin to know them better (including the DMs), and the character's reputation and influence within the factions will increase. So I agree that "earning" something may not sound appealing, but frankly it's the way we go. You need to have a character who establishes himself in some form or fashion. This way we can get to know the character better and have a foundation to work off of.

If you feel that you're not somehow involved in a plot, ask yourself what you do when you're in-game. Do you go out questing with your buddies non-stop? If the answer is yes, consider the following. The way we outline plots is based off of the DM and player factions in the game. To put the plot in the hands of an individual is risking too much. After all, if they die, the plot dies with them. So with this in mind, you want to make it a goal for all of your characters to somehow be involved with a faction, be it a DM or player one. (This is, in truth, the secret to EFU.) Even if it's the Watch Reserve, or the Spellguard Associates, just to be with them is always a plus. That way if a plot is thrown at a faction, you are more likely to take part and shine. So join the Watch! Join the Spellguard. Join Vile Industries, the Dirty Nancies, the Crone Bouncers, whatever! Involve yourself into the ongoings of the server, and I guarantee that your life will be much more interesting than if you were that lone wolf out there just doing nothing.

And finally, if you feel some area of the gameworld can use improvement, is being neglected, or what have you, feel free to tell a DM about it. We don't notice everything, and we see things in a different light. Let us know what's going on in your head! We can't help you if we don't know what you're thinking.

Even if you follow all of our advice, it will never guarantee that you'll get DM attention. Sometimes we're just busy; it's an imperfect world. While I would love to cater to the whole playerbase, I'm only willing to commit so much time and energy to this game.

So to sum up: Factions are malleable, take a risk, be involved with our factions. talk to us and please be understanding when we aren't 100% reliable.

It's good that we can all come together and discuss the current dynamics of EFU gameplay. Just one thing I feel like I should add in here is, there will always be a DM check on PC power, to protect the most important/basic principles of the server. This sort of check will say, prevent a PC council from doing something undesirable to the server (IE: Banning half-orcs from the city), ensure that there is always a dumpy, disgusting slums area, and the like. Now then, try not to discuss current IC matters in this thread too much, and please keep things as civil as possible.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

As a corollary to what Sternhund said about DMs, the same is true of players who are in factions. At one point, my main character had more plots on his plate than he could possibly deal with, and even after literally handing most of it out to other characters, he still has bookoos of work cut out for him. The only way for me to deal with this is to get other players involved in my plots, but more often than not, I'll send someone out on a mission and never hear from that player again. Half the time they don't even come back to collect their gold.

If a faction PC hires you for a job, odds are good that the PC is trying to get you involved in a plot. 90% of the time, the first job will be busywork, to test you out IC. OOC-wise, the only thing I'm really looking for is to see is whether or not you come back at all. Like Sternhund said, it's a complete waste of time trying to get someone involved if they're just going to go off to play a new character in two days.

This is just a small thing, and it happens sometimes rarely, and wish it happened more!

I love it when a DM sends me a tell while I'm RPing all exited asking me what my character is doing at the current moment. Maybe asking a few questions to get to know the character a little better, in case something they have planned might suit my PC well.

I know it doesn't sound like much, but the few times a DM has taken an initiative like that to ask me about my character some, instead of possibly waiting weeks to figure out my character, I truly am very happy. There are always hidden quirks, agendas, and history to my PC's that likely will never be revealed in RP, and if a DM takes the time to ask me about these things, it really does put a smile on my face. That these small hidden facets of my character that help determine WHY they do what they do, will not go unnoticed or forgotten.

In response to the general points made, well, I think that they've all been achieved in the past anyway.

We've had whole organisations brought down before by players. We've allowed silly decisions to be made by the council (tolls anyone?) We've had players at the very top of factions (Barrister Fawkes as sheriff) We've had massive server changing events by player factions before - the chaos and strife in Lower Sanctuary spawned so many of them.

Unfortunately, we won't always be able to have a 'head of group' being a player. Not everyone has the time, inclination, or (dare I say it?) the quality to be allowed such a post. So most factions will have NPC's as their heads.

And as far as player factions accomplishing anything goes - it's a two way process. Vlaid for instance. Have you ever considered that the DM's need you to tell -them- what you're doing sometimes? We aren't omnipresent, though we do the best we can. It's really a two way process that breaks down simply through a lack of communication on one or all parts.

That's really the biggest part of it. The guys that get things done tend to be the stubborn ones, the ones who communicate with the DM's, who have the cojones to collar us on IRC and tell us what they are doing and what they need, and can we do this and that for them.

We just sometimes don't like the ideas presented. But we'll always work with you on them.

I think the point of what I was saying was lost in transition from thought to text. I wasn't wagging my finger at the DM's, I was giving a cliche' forum backpat to the DM's for caring to ask players what's going on with their PC's.

I'll admit, I'm the kind of player that will send a DM tell maybe once, and if I don't get a reply think they hate me and leave them alone for 24 hours and then try again XD.

I do tell the DM's what's going on with my PC's when it's a big enough deal to grab one and let them know. But occasionally it is a nice feeling when a DM takes an interest to ask. That's all, no hidden agenda or sarcasm.

It's a very good point. If people feel that they're not being watched and that their actions don't matter, then I guess that tumbles the whole pack of cards.

Maybe we don't pat people on the back often enough for what they're doing, or as much as let them know we're there. That's something i'll make sure to consider for the next chance I get at this fantastic game :)

And as far as player factions accomplishing anything goes - it's a two way process. Vlaid for instance. Have you ever considered that the DM's need you to tell -them- what you're doing sometimes? We aren't omnipresent, though we do the best we can. It's really a two way process that breaks down simply through a lack of communication on one or all parts.

I think that has been the source of many of my problems. I'm like Vlaid in that if I don't get an instant DM response I am not likely to keep bugging DM's until I get one. I just generally assume that if I don't get a response the DM's are busy and I don't want to seem like one of those annoying players who constantly hound the DM's. When I want something I tend to try and work toward it in character, just assuming the DM's will notice, and when I begin running into OOC roadblocks it becomes the source of much of my frustration.

I'm going to work hard in fixing that issue on my end.

I want to mention briefly that i agree with basically everything Meldread says and disagree with the assertion that he is trying to force his hardcore rp style on anyone, or that he really implied that. I applaud the DM's for all their work and play, and all the players as well but there are a few relatively huge "problems" that effect the "moldability" that could be somewhat easily remedied in my opinion, and seriously increase the fun level. I think if people went back and reread his assertions, they may realize more clearly what he meant, and what his desired goal is (FUN! lol).

First is the politics aspect.

The whole metal problem, lol, if wouldnt have overheard some PC's discussing it IG, i would never have even known.

Perhaps for another similar event in the future (using the metal thing as an example) would be to actually have the shopowners stop or severely limit the selling of metal items. This would really make the more casual players (who i am in not trying to chastise) really speak up and say... "where the heck can i get a damn sword!!," thus spurring an extremely lucrative metal trade, and, more importantly, thus forcing the casual players who normaly would not care a bit about politics to at least think about it, and very likely raise their voice and/or fist about the issue.

I've seen a rabble situation a few times directed towards individuals or relatively small instances, but never towards something like the government or other established institutions, which so commonly happens in the real world (paritucalarly impovrished and battling communities which Sanctuary is modelled after).

You would think lower would be suicide bombing upper daily in real life circumstances, but beacuse of the lack of motivation or things that REALLY effect the more casual PC , most PC's would rarely get involved in any grand struggle type thing. My proposal is to (basically) force them too through real dillemas which really effect them. Obviously this is equally a DM and PC thing, but i know we have some cool, fun loving DMs and great RPers to multiply the fun level of the server.

Perhaps there should be some more aggressive campaigning by candidates to really get people interested. I am sure that myself, and few other players who are at least equally or more interested in RP than xp and loot, would have a blast talking about politics with some "door to door handshaking" type politician.

Ya, so this post ended up far longer than i had planned, but i cleared my mind of a few improvements that i think wouldd be lots of fun for everybody. I think the whole social sandbox things is one of the best and most fun aspects of the ETU "experiment." And remember, as in real life, most people wont get truly "upset" and make a difference above mere lip service unless their "bread and circus" are taken away.

I say let the sandbox be molded!

lol Best wishes to all.

P.S. I know this is quite a subjective post, but i think most would agree with me on most of my points.

P.P.S. Just because a majority agrees about something doesn't mean it was a good idea, or that most even really thought about what they were saying or agreeing with. Go back a few hundred years and take slavery for an example. This is not directed towards my own post so much as some other poster who played the democracy card (and final fantasy lol :) ), who remains anonymous ;), and who i love very much! :) (and want no beef with whatsoever)

I think the whole problem would be solved if there was a single DM whose job it was to sit in the IRC forums and possess NPCs whenever someone wanted it.

I nominate wcsherry. :P

Yes, we want to be super-hardcore players, forced to eke out a meager existence by the skin of our teeth.

Hello pioneerSeven,

Let me see if I can address all of your concerns. It's possible I missed something, I admit to be a little groggy at the moment.

-I'm not going to speak for Stardog entirely on behalf of his plot, but I am pretty sure it should have been obvious there was a severe metal crisis for sometime (Fullplate prices inflated by roughly 50%-100%), just by talking to many NPC's in the area at the very least. Regarding your statement about Lower Sanctuary, perhaps you should explore the reasons in game the folks don't have their blood boiling, with pitchforks drawn and so forth. There are definitely good reasons the locals are acting as they are.

-Regarding 'moldability', I've taken the module out nearly everyday this week to make adjustments to the gameworld that players acting under the guidance of their own motivations and plots have accomplished. NPC's have died, buildings have changed, store prices fluctuate! It's a mad mad mad mad world in Sanctuary.

-Campaiging for Council Membership (Which is what I think your fourth paragraph is addressing) is something we do take very seriously, and put lots of time into formulating a public opinion that manipulates voter turnout, based on how PC's respond to in character situations. Goof up and frag a commoner in Lower? Yeah, that's going on your record. Deliver an excellent speech in the Town Hall with a huge attendance and several priests watching on from the Grumbar Temple that seem pleased? Yep, that is going to be there too. It's possible some things just seem more concealed than they really are, but there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes.

-I guess I will just respond by saying we can't realistically be available for as many hours as most players would like us to be around for plots. We try to help you all along as much as we can, and truly do encourage groups of players that are accomplishing big things in the gameworld. Thanks for the suggestions and commentary, everyone.

Now, I've got a Kobold Castle to finish building...

wcsherry Kobold Castle

wcsherry Kobold Castle

wcsherry Kobold Castle

I think it'd be neat if at times DMs devoted themselves to just chance NPC possessions more than organized events. Aka, give PCs a chance to interact or get held up or whatever in Lower... have some NPC guard strike up a chat with some PC or another, etcetera. Devotion to making the world seem alive is a handy thing indeed, if there could be a DM around Sanctuary making things tick.

We do that too!

They really do! People often don't pay attention to these things, though. =/ (Or have this thing of completely ignoring NPC's. You ever tried starting a conversation with one? Or even those small things like "Hello Capt'n Blackbeard. Seen anything of interest lately?" or "*Nods to Agent John Doe*" >.> )

Madskillsmike Or even those small things like "Hello Capt'n Blackbeard. Seen anything of interest lately?" or "*Nods to Agent John Doe*" >.> )

Definitly, in fact, I Sergeant Blackbeard started off entirely because one day Fawkes was walking around town and said something to a private a DM was possessing. The private responded with "Argh!" and on a whim I called him Private Blackbeard.

I believe it was sherry or SongofOrpheus who then renamed him Private Blackbeard complete with apparently a very exciting backstory involving maelstroms, pirates, wenches, and angry calamari.

ok so just make us all DMs. No players in-game at all. A server with nothing but DMs!

no seriously, i hate NPCs. (not seriously)

:shock:

the end

Concerning the Plot Shield.

Its simple really. Players dont believe that their city can get destroyed by their actions. They dont believe that killing that ally of great evil could send the city into stark and undeniable ruin. (maybe it wont!) But there is no reason to barter with Someone you don't like- in order to avoid pissing them off- because even if you do, there will always be an out for the server. That 'out' is thusly named the Plot Shield. If players thought that the Dms would create situations that had to be dealt with non-violently or it could "destroy/enslave" the entire city- then the players may actually be afraid of that "big army of man eating ants".

Some threats are downplayed by the players- some are exaggerated- Most of the time this is non-intentional. Some people ignored the Ants because they knew the server would be -more or less- the same regardless. Others hyped up the threat in an attempt to make it seem as dangerous to even the part time players. ... That big scary ant war that didn't even kill a single 1% of the populace.

It was pointless background unless you happened to be logged in for the lag-battle. And most players have no true way to determine what the potential of a danger could be, or what it could mean for them if something isn't done- and done correctly.

Concerning NPCs

1. Characters in EFU dont know what the NPCs around them- think about them. They dont know who to appeal to the vast majority of Npc Commoners because they never have any directional interaction with them. This can hurt how people go about building factions. Essentially, you cannot try to be the publics hero- if the public has no expressed will. Therefore, if someone wanted to play the unlawful hero for the oppressed people, they are given little if any direction on how to best "represent" this through RP, or where best to steer their growing faction.
2. Players that represent the people of a certain area... aren't able to know what a group is sick of, what they are willing to forgive, what the people hate most, or what people really want to see their area involve into. This makes things rocky when players agree on one thing, and the DMs have the NPC decide something else- and never hint to the players that there could be a discrepancy beforehand. This can cause disillusionment of a situation to the entire player base. I am assuming of course that the NPC would be willing to change, if it were a good change for them. (npc opinion, the diversity of such)
3. Efu is constantly driving players towards conflict- and because it take so much work to try to build something- people mostly just take the easier route and pick another faction or person to wage war on. This enforces the self-destructive cycle that we witness in Efu. This exists because it is easier to attack someone then to try to build something just questionable enough to create other types of conflict.

~Ebok

Ebok Things!

Amen!

Things would be much different in Sanctuary right now if a few things in the plot had gone differently. I feel kind of awkward here, as I don't want to give away massive spoilers and all the write-ups I did, but you can rest assured that the evil monster and his thralls nearly got what they wanted, and did come very close to wrecking things in the city.

I do know I ran out of time in April to finish a lot of the things that had some really great momentum going in this plot, and lament that I had to finish it in late October, but that's just life. Anyhow, when we figure out an effective way to run a sweet invasion without a lag bomb, hopefully things can be done a bit differently should another angry mob show up on the city's doorstep.

NPC's:

1.) I think you're right. We could add some more flavourful NPC dialogues. If you see a DM in game, don't be shy about asking to speak with a few commoners too if you want their opinions. A few of our DM's really enjoy possessions like that.

2.) I am not sure what to say to this just yet. Specific example maybe would help me try to offer my thoughts on it.

3.) Some people will always take the path of least resistance. Others will go for the biggest challenges!

Oroborous

Madskillsmike Or even those small things like "Hello Capt'n Blackbeard. Seen anything of interest lately?" or "*Nods to Agent John Doe*" >.> )

Definitly, in fact, I Sergeant Blackbeard started off entirely because one day Fawkes was walking around town and said something to a private a DM was possessing. The private responded with "Argh!" and on a whim I called him Private Blackbeard.

I believe it was sherry or SongofOrpheus who then renamed him Private Blackbeard complete with apparently a very exciting backstory involving maelstroms, pirates, wenches, and angry calamari.

:roll: :oops: :roll:

Ebok's post is pretty spot on, I feel.

As with all things though, its one thing to identify and lament negatives, but another to offer up viable solutions. Many of the concerns mentioned are 'nature of the beast' things.

I do believe we -both players and DMs alike- have tried and successfully cultivated an atmosphere of conflict, change and intrigue on EFU, though.

I really do agree that violent conflict has become perhaps much more dominant than it should be in relation to non-violent conflict. I would like to see more elaborate scheming and plotting and less kill-to-solve-issue responses in general. This isn't to say there is no room for violent conflict; there's plenty! It is nice to have just us much intrigue as rumbles, though.

As for PC-NPC communication breakdown, I wasn't aware it was really a problem. We do try out best to make our representative NPCs vocal, where applicable, about their views and agendas. However if there really is a disconnection between PC-NPCs, I guess its easily fixed by doing two things; we, as DMs, working harder to communicate NPC thoughts and you, as players, making a greater effort to find out said thoughts.

In the end, we need to work as one big happy family! ^^

I frequently check the rumors thread to get a feel for NPC sentiment. Perhaps if that were used more often, it would resolve the NPC issue. As much as I know forum work can be a drag, it seems like that's the most expedient way to handle the NPC information deficit.

I will add, however, that it is a slice of heaven every time a DM possesses an NPC for me.

The meta-faction write ups are pretty spot on, though it seems like people have forgotten to keep them in mind sometimes!

MadCaddies

The meta-faction write ups are pretty spot on, though it seems like people have forgotten to keep them in mind sometimes!

Do you mean this Caddies?

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/23/23730/closed-metafactions/index.html

Nope, each of the meta-faction boards has an OOC profile.

Alright, Lately I have been very verbose in my posts. So I left out my suggestions and examples previously to cut down on reading time. >.>

Now then, I'm well aware that sherry did her absolute best (thanks by the way), and I understand there are very real limits. I even acknowledge that there is allot we don't see- But that was in part why I mentioned it. A good chunk of the server did not know what to think- Very few of the Dm actions communicated the threat level to those people that were even one or two steps outside the direct conflict.

Concerning Threats that involve all of Sanctuary. Thoughts on improvement?

1. Make it impossible for the players to not understanding about how to realistically respond to a situation IC.
2. Give an informative post on the DM forum- explaining to the Dms who arn't running the event- what smaller bits of information can be given out to anyone- through any means the DM's decide.
3. By flooding the server with this information- it gives everyone an understand of how real an event could be. Secondarily the many DM actions can be used to just introduce the feeling of impact on the server- [list=a:eb9eac8396]
4. An angry and scared Mob of people shouting their feelings- followed by a rumor thread and maybe a new Frightened added to that spot with some lingering emotes he is willing to share with the curious.
5. TONS of smaller events that give people a taste of what is to come. These could be happening for weeks prior to the true event- while giving the players the feeling that the world turns and shit keep happening. (I stress non-combat events)
6. Maybe a single Npcs whispers some "secret he heard" to some factions that cant seem to locate anyone that knows whats happening.
7. Increase the length of each plot- and ways one must risk to uncover information. Perhaps add lots of minor conflicts that have no solution by means of slaughter. Maybe it takes more then death and killing to save the city. Maybe it requires submission?

Secret plots cannot be so secret that it confuses parts of the player base concerning the "correct" impression that such rumors should be having on the city. Players often unintentionally spread false rumors- that they think that something is dangerous, while all true information/rumors/sources point to the contrary. Its hard to find this stuff if you missed a memo.

Yet I think you hit the jist idea of a secret plot. As sherry said earlier they can't just always say what is what. Open rumors can't always say Metal shortage caused by (blank) or Sudden Disapperance of guards caused by (Blank), new strange device beneath sewers brought by (blank)

Another problem sherry hit on and I think a more important problem is the lag factor of large events. It is not uncommon when a disaster strikes (I've been there for 2 major pc events now) for the following to happen.

1. Player rushed to contact all available pcs. 2. Dm makes a shout 3. Every player that can figure out a way to follow the dm plot does. 4. So many players you can barely keep track of what is going on.

I saw one event once with twenty five players. Even in three teams it was a nightmare. That is the conflict you run into though, while smaller plots more deeply involve people they usually do not have the same impact as say lots of players.

All that said while I enjoy the whole graying of the lines between good and evil idea I think dms do that as much as possible but it has challenges.

Just my two cents.

I never said hand out free information. I was attempting to suggest providing a way for players to go to, you learn what would be the "correct" (common/majority/prominent) impressions the city would be taking towards the parts of the information that would be public. Even if half the server is talking about- it doesnt garrentee it will reach the players that log in during times when no-one has a clue.

Maybe the simplest solution would be adding a rumor thread for each section of the city- where the dms would quickly add in what most NPC people would be complaining about.

~Ebok

Again as far as i know thats something thats already done in the gossip section of the public notice forums. two examples being the attack by the ordinant on the crone and the attack by members of lower on new Dunnwarren.

It's quite simple: If someone really wants to get involved, they will find the ways to do so. It is -impossible- to "force" people to respond to all to the server. If someone doesn't want to, they won't. If people want to simply trash repetitive quests again and again and simply ignore the environment, they will. Now if someone wants to get involved, there are ways to make her get interested or start something, but this isn't the point of the topic, I suppose.

Regarding the plot shield:

We as players may know that the city will never be completely destroyed and all that, but that doesn't mean our characters know that. That's where the concept of "role playing" comes in. Just because something isn't true, doesn't mean we can't pretend it is while playing our characters. There's nothing stopping us, right? :roll:

Madskillsmike

We as players may know that the city will never be completely destroyed and all that, but that doesn't mean our characters know that. That's where the concept of "role playing" comes in. Just because something isn't true, doesn't mean we can't pretend it is while playing our characters. There's nothing stopping us, right? :roll:

You must be an optimist.

Its pretty clear enough players don't view the possibility of the city's destruction as an OOC reality to such extent they don't bother to worry about it IC either--not if their are clowns to kill!

Oroborous

Madskillsmike

We as players may know that the city will never be completely destroyed and all that, but that doesn't mean our characters know that. That's where the concept of "role playing" comes in. Just because something isn't true, doesn't mean we can't pretend it is while playing our characters. There's nothing stopping us, right? :roll:

You must be an optimist.

Its pretty clear enough players don't view the possibility of the city's destruction as an OOC reality to such extent they don't bother to worry about it IC either--not if their are clowns to kill!

Don't forget those pesky trolls out by the low road!

But in seriousness, the DM team has said in the past it is quite possible that the town will be completely and utterly destroyed and it may even turn out to be the end of EFU if that were to happen.

They have no intention of ever rolling back to how it was before. So if sanctuary was to ever be destroyed we'd all be living in a bigger cave with fewer quests to do!

It can happen. It will happen eventually if people keep assuming it can't ooc'ly!

I'd be more worried about the trolls on the forums.

Keep that up and I'll lift your plot shield, 9lives. ; )