There have been several threads about DM spice in the past. Mostly it's players complaining their uber characters got killed by an evil DM or players supporting the DM initiative to create a vibrant and unpredictable setting.

So, today I had, what I hold to be, an unfortunate encounter with DM spice. As a player I enjoy a challenge and when a DM spices a quest it is almost always great fun and a chance to escape the tedious hack and slash of most scripted quests.

Before I go any further, I should say that this is not an attempt to put down DM spice or to try to dish out any sort of parameters or guidelines, no. But I think suggestions should always be welcomed, and from time to time I think we can all benefit from a little discussion, even, and especially, when it is concerning something everyone has an opinion about.

It is worth remembering that we are all here to have a good time. The Spice my party experienced today definitely didn't contribute to the fun, as the characters withdrew from the scene, feeling an odd mix of horror and apathy and soon after the players logged off the server.

That was not an ideal situation in my eyes. Here is a party where everyone is roleplaying - talking, shouting and emoting. DM enters the scene, smashes the characters to bits (metaphorically speaking) and all roleplaying ceases and the characters run for their lives in disbelief. Now, of course, it can always be argued that the party didn't do this or that right, and maybe if they had approached the problems in a particular way, things would have been all dandy and sweet. That may very well be, but what happened was that roleplaying ceased and both the players and their characters were left bewildered. Not an ideal situation I think.

So, where am I going with this rant? Well, I suppose I want people to remember that we are all here to have a good time, and that there should be balance and consideration in the way we master our characters and minions.

A few suggestions might be:

To Players: Roll with the spice; interact, get involved, work with the story and not against it.

To DMs: Try not to maul the protagonists too severely, too quickly. Anyone can conjure up a Red Dragon, but having it contribute to the story is more difficult. Throw them an oddball rather than a destroyer. Make them an offer; If they choose violence, then it's their choice. Give them a hint that something is not right, if hell is going to be unleashed further ahead.

But... What do -you- think?

While we may have the title of "Dungeon Master" (or in my case Der Kerkermeister!), we all make mistakes. When I first started DMing I made some pretty big flops, though what's important is that with every mistake as a DM, we learn from the experience. Ultimately I ask that people be patient with us, since lots of players have lots of requests and we are humans with limits. Please do not let a mishap on a part of DM impact you any more than a mishap of a fellow player!

As for the mauling, I was not present to speak on behalf of the incident itself, but I find that we almost never outright maul people. Sometimes we place a very difficult spawn, but with a difficult spawn comes an increased reward. Balancing is always a tough issue in NWN, so sometimes our "tough" spawn is too weak, and sometimes our tough spawn is too tough.

To get an idea of how we measure spawns, generally we look at the character sheets of a party and their inventory, specifically at potions. If you have a lot of potions, that's a real edge against whatever we'll throw at you, so more likely than not we'll throw down a tougher spawn to make up for the use of consumables. Those characters that decide not to use what resources they have may find that their miserliness will land them in the fugue! Remember: what use is that potion/consumable if you never use it?

I have seen this before. One thing I can say is that often I have picked up the gear of a fallen player and see that they have piles of useful potions, items, and other gear that they never used. USE YOUR CONSUMABLES!

That said, I think Stardog had it pretty well explained. Be patient, stay calm, and never jump to the conclusion that the DMs are out to get you. Usually, they go out of their way to help you if you ask nice. :)

People wonder why I survive when everyone dies. People wonder why they die. When I loot there packs, after giving up (given the option)) or when I loot there packs, because I downed in an invis potion. I find a sludge drink, improved invis potions, shield, true strike, even haste potions people never used. Now, the dm's never make something to tough, I am sure Wiggy at least goes through your god damned pack and checks what you have. And know what, he makes you use it. Nough said.

SO USE YOUR DAMN SPECIAL LOOT IF YOUR DYING GOD DAMN IT

It's been said, but use your consumables. There are dozens of bizarre little items in EfU that'll cast spells that will save your ass. A common problem (at least for me, and a number of the people I've asked) is hoarding gold instead of spending it. For success in spice (well, in anything where a DM's involved), you're much better off buying up consumables. It makes things much, much easier.

The spice that I've seen is usually a blast. As long as the loot that gets you back to where you were before the quest with a bit extra for the trouble is usually well worth the trouble.

Good suggestions so far.

Since Ibe asked me what I thought I will answer! I'll even answer in a civil and respectful manner.

Ibeholder Now, of course, it can always be argued that the party didn't do this or that right, and maybe if they had approached the problems in a particular way, things would have been all dandy and sweet.

Regardless of what a DM may be doing, when I die, its almost always because:

1. I forgot I could retreat/Group scattered 2. My emergency quickslots were blank (Forgetting to replace invis wands, Ghostly visage, haste, etc) 3. PfE ran out

Broken Party: The monsters scattered your whole party but you're going to buff up and solo them yourself? Sure, maybe if they weren't being directly controlled by a DM. Go gather up/rescue the survivors and then make your move.

Quickslots: Keep what you use in a fight regularly in the first quickbar, and keep all your emergency/pvp/Oh shit! stuff together in another quickbar. If you run out of room, keep what doesn't fit or your backup consumables on the front page of your inventory screen. The ability to react quickly in an organized fashion when faced with the unexpected will keep you alive.

Mind Effecting Spells: The most dangerous thing in EFU is you being unable to control your character. Potions and wands will last, at most, 10 minutes. Don't get so embroiled in the fighting that you allow your mind protection to go down when you're around spellcasters.

Additionally: Rogues & Traps: Know that if there's combat going on you don't get your automatic 20 to disarm traps. Let your party members know not to do anything while you're scouting. If you see them shooting something, stop working on the trap. You're a poor reflex save away from the fugue.

Well, I certainly appreciate the intentions of the post and am happy to discuss DM Spice (when it is appropriate, when not, and so on) but I do think specifics can be useful. In this particular case, I gather the incident was essentially just a couple of greater chosen arcanists being used much more intelligently than usual on a generally very easy quest (I believe they dispelled a lot of buffs after the party pre-buffed before entering the quest area, and then used some acid cones effectively).

So although I wasn't present for the situation, I guess all I have to say is that EfU as a hardcore PW server that's built in a game many, many years old... should be, and is, set to a higher difficulty rating. We're not just storytelling, we're also a game, and just like how snoozing through any other game at the easiest difficulty setting is no fun, same with EfU. DMs possessing NPCs and using their spells intelligently is a far cry from spawning red dragons.

So I guess in this case, I'd have to come down against whoever it was who were so disconcerted by NPCs behaving intelligently and using their spell-set properly (instead of just, you know, fearing themselves like what usually happens on a certain quest) that they wanted to log off from the server. It just doesn't seem like the best attitude to have if you want to have fun on EfU! Although, perhaps I am missing something.

There have certainly been plenty of incidents in which EfU DM Spice has been too much, though!

I get mad/very pissed when NPC mages are dmed possess and begin to spam combust and fireballs spells more than they should right fully have.

*Watches ogre mage cast combust 14 times before dying*

There are times I think making the quest ridicolously hard was cool like during a troll quest The Dm controlled the quest giver and said the trolls were acting stranger and tougher.

I hate to troll, but I think Tom and Dr. are entirely missing the point of this thread, as well as ignoring what the DMs have to say. Go back and read what was written. Please.

[edit] Also, you guys were doing great about spelling/grammar. I really hate to say it, but try a little harder, please. I've seen a lot of brutal posts lately.

Just take a moment and read your post before clicking "submit". I really really don't want to sound harsh here, but come on.

Damn, one more thing: Dms don't generally give critters abilities they don't normally have. They just use them better.

I like the responses so far. I honestly believe that this is a subject it is wise and just to discuss once in awhile, perhaps once a year or so.

I wrote the original post not because a party of characters were soundly beaten, but because a party of players felt badly after but a very short time of DM interaction.

Such feelings might be warranted or not, might be sound from an completely objective view or not, but it was enough for me to start the discussion once again.

In some of the old posts about this subject I stated that the DMs have saved my characters numerous times by, for instance, picking another target when my character was about to topple over or holding back the tidal wave of monsters for just long enough for PCs to recover / flee. I am positive this was also the case in the recent session. I cannot imagine how the party would have escaped otherwise.

And so this is in no way meant to be a departure from spice, but merely a discussion to hopefully yield more fulfilling experiences for DMs and players alike.

Edit: Typos

I am a big sulky la-la, and not one person on the server could say otherwise. I have been known to spit the dummy many times after I have died to spice. When I calm down, however, there are a few things that keep me coming back for more spice.

I like to remind myself that the DMs are human as well. As such, they vary in their awesomeness, from mild awesome, all the way up to uber awesome.

I have had spice that blew my mind. Spice that transformed a basic quest into something more immersive, and awe-inspiring than many custom DM quests. The monsters come alive, they trash talk or chitter, they backstab or plead for mercy. New areas appear, old ones disappear. You make allies, make enemies, emote till your finger bleed. PCs die, and you feel genuine fear that yours will be next. It isn’t hard to love this spice.

However, not all spice can live up to that standard, and nor should it. DMs have different RP skills, different game mechanic skills and different DM client skills. Sometimes DMs are tired, or bored, or more interested in their nachos than the game. As such, some spice does come out a little bland. But really, who can say they RPed a PC from start to end without having some dull bits? DMs are still people, and not everything they touch turns to gold.

I still like dull(er) spice, because without it I get bored of the constant powergaming (it is like a curse, I hate it, but I must do it!). As long as the DM drops a courtesy "Feed them to the Appetite" before they start spamming dispel magic, I am happy.

It is worth remembering that if the quest is too hard, you can usually bail out. I like not always finishing quests, since it make the RP experience more realistic, and you are more rewarded when you do crawl over the finish line.

scrappayeti vary in their awesomeness, from mild awesome, all the way up to uber awesome.

Wrong! All DMs are Uber Awesome! :P

And as for the excess spice, I don't think the DMs make quests so challenging that they are almost unplayable, it's just that most players don't make the most of what they have (consumables, rare items, etc.) or as Scrappa said, people just don't want to retreat.

Yeah, there were times when I found myself screaming and shaking my fist at the monitor like a grouchy hermit due to a death from DM spice but in the end it's nothing but pure awesome and it's much more fun than your vannila run through the mines fighting gnolls and gnomes.

Just my two cents folks!

Pup

Also, you guys were doing great about spelling/grammar. I really hate to say it, but try a little harder, please. I've seen a lot of brutal posts lately.

I know it's completely off topic, but...

*falls off chair laughing*

DM's arn't perfect and do get it wrong i remember being on one of Caddies first (if not the first) DM quest with Snorri and that was just crazy when things went wrong and half the party died... No to mention almost all of us had the plague at that point too. But when Caddies made a mistake he owned up to it and sorted it out.... So just remember the DM's are human... if you think something was unfair talk to them in a civil manner and try to see things from thier point of view.

Best way to avoid too tough DM spice is to make sure you drop and hide all your potions and wands first, everyone in the party. Also hide that fullplate and towershield and get a small one. Or just carry 100 bags and hide the good potions in a random.

Victoly!

But seriously, the tougher the spice, the better. If not 3 party members fall below 0 HP during spice and if there's not at least one fugue the DM is doing something wrong. In my experience, the more the DMs like a group, the harder the challenge they throw at you will be.

Wiggy and his infinite Umberhulk Guardians (the really tough type) for the win!

Don't forget, sometimes the DM cannot control all the monsters. One time on Clown quest, or scout forgot to remove her light source items :evil: and brought the entirety of the enemy force down on us. We ran, and I decided to turn around and face them. Then I saw Bobo use an ability I never seen before and died. I blamed the dm. The took my barrage patiently and told me he always had that ability.

So sometimes, not everything is the dm's fault/responsibility.

DM's don't try and kill you (Maybe Wiggy or Sherry), so don't go kong fu on them. Tink of what -you- did wrong, and don't make the same mistake.

DM's make mistakes, I personally saw about 5.

If the party is broken, gather them up.

If the party is retreating, invis and join the route.

Never, ever, complain when DM's screw up the factions, this way, you don't have to worry about the spawns half as much :twisted:

Cool, thx, bye

Thomas_Not_very_wise DM's don't try and kill you (Maybe Wiggy or Sherry)

Spice rocks. Possessed NPCs rock harder. I don't think either side DOESN'T get a rush out of spicing, pushing limits and serious ass kicking. It's however the responsibility of both sides to recognize where the limit is to keep it awesome.

The AI is boring, predictable, and incredibly easy. (Or in this case, moronic, as these monsters actually fear themselves.) If fighting a monster with a modicum of intelligence just above that of a rock terrifies you, I do not want to sound 'harsh', but perhaps EFU is not for you. As it is, we strive to make things as fair as possible for groups. Often the ideal situation is for you to survive a challenge, narrowly surviving the ordeal. We can't prevent monsters from making in-opportune crits though. Anyhow. You will find that we spend most of our time as individual DM's playing with players that we think will enjoy a challenge. Relax guys, losing Level 8 does not mean the sun will not rise tomorrow. Wiggyboy has to sleep sometime, too. ;)

My character Kegan Battlemaster died on I guess what is refered to as a "spiced" quest. The game was suddenly paused and I watched in horror as trolls were placed completely around our party...I died as we retreated and I was subsequently pissed off. But after venting in the Fugue for awhile with some other party members (before I knew it was an IC area), I logged off and let it go.

Looking back there were several things we as players could have done differently. Maybe running around and screaming wasn't the best approach...seriously, my character died trying to cover the retreat of his comrades. And although none of the other players may have noticed or appreciated it, that was my character's role. It sucked he died, but hey, the Underdark's a dangerous place and you just never know when a group of hungry trolls are gonna ambush you...

I just want to end by saying that I greatly appreciate the effort the DM's put into this server (it seems every time I log on there is at least 1 DM present), and hey if they need to kill off a few characters to remain interested enough to continually come back for more...then I'll gladly serve mine up.

As you can see from my signature my characters are not "dead", they are "previously enjoyed".

-Kalos

You seem a little confused about why we tend to modify quests Kalos. Killing players probably causes us more grief than anything else as DM's, and results in the least amount of fun while on the client. (Just IMO anyways!) Players tend to remember each death sourly, recounting them with vivid accuracy in my experience -- not something I really like playing in a part in, though it does need to be done. Killing PC's is not interesting for me, nor any other DM, nor is it what keeps us coming back to EFU. That is a very pessimistic attitude sir!

I am sorry that my sarcasm was lost in translation. Please read my post with the light, fluffy attitude in which it was intended.

Take this one thing away from it - I love playing on EFU, and I think the DMs here and players alike rock. That's why I am here.

-Kalos

Group hug?

I know there have been several times on DM quests I have had varioius characters very near death, and the DM possessed monster or NPC turns his attacks to another party member.

Also, I can't count the times DMs have let a fugued character of mine off the hook by moving spawns, allowing PCs to make a rescue, or other fair but realistic ways to let my character's story continue.

That should tell you that they are trying to avoid needless PC fugues, and sometimes if you get wicked critted, you'll get a Tell from a DM saying "Damn, that sucked. Sorry bro", or something like that.

It seems like most party near-wipeouts occur when the PCs don't back off when they are getting their heads handed to them. I can almost envision that "Charge onward" from a PC elicits a DM sigh and disappointment as the monsters or NPC start the maulage.

Not that this occurred in Ibe's situation that he is posting about, but it seems that some wicked carnage is intentional by the DMs to keep the setting nasty and exciting.

But I'll admit that I've been pissed and grouchy as much as anyone when my character dies, and normally the one I should be upset with is myself due to my own stupidity.

wcsherry Players tend to remember each death sourly, recounting them with vivid accuracy in my experience

no wai, mang

all I remember is that it was: 8:22:54 pm GMT+1, May 22nd, 23 degrees Celcius, humidity: low, visibility: high, weak winds, sparse clouds. 11 serious healing, 3 blurs, 3 barkskins, 1 PFE, 1 Illithid with blur and haste up, rolls were 20, 19, 20, 18, 20, 20 for it, 3,1,2,3,1,1, for I. Damage was 20, 10, 20, 10, 20, 20 for it, 0,0,0,0,0,0 for I. Char Time of Pwned = 8:24:26. At 8:25:54, my first "I QUit 4ever" tell was sent.

Seriously, though. I agree with Gwydion. The last DM quest I was on was Howl's "Speedy the Rat", and on that one I also got the impression that the dms often have to make balances to both sides of the fighting as the fight is going on. It has to be very hard! They move the harder spawns around and have them retarget other pcs etc. Trying to keep it a challenge without it being too easy or too difficult.

But yeah, some creatures have very powerful spells. 1 acid cone = omgtehpain. Several? xO

Also when you get subdued in a DM spiced quest and you have the lucky dip of trying to stabilize. DM's lay off you and let the gods (or your party) decide your fate. If that doesn't scream out: I DON'T WANT TO KILL YOU REALLY! more than that I don't know what does.

wcsherry Group hug?

Fuck yeah.

In response to the general consensus in this thread.

I agree with Sherry more than anything here. It is common, especially on scripted quests for people to just enjoy pwning. Even if that means pwning creatures with lame AI. Because this game IS ONLY FUN WHEN YOU'RE WINNING!!! Isn't it? Oh no wait. If that's true in your eyes. I hate you and everything you stand for. What's fun is getting a good bit of RP out of a situation as opposed to running away and logging because there is a twist in your usually straight and easy street to phat lewts and xp. Take every situation on it's merits. And be greatful that a DM is taking time out of their day to make the slog through repetitive and mostly boring scripted quests unique and more interesting. If the possibility of having your quests disturbed concerns you. Go and find an action server where you'll be able to get to 40 and kill dragons . You won't even have to worry about that troublesome RP either.

Ok Rant over.

Allow me to bring up a point that hasn't been raised: Possibly, a large reason why people are not using their consumables is that they were saving them for something "important" ie. something they were planning. This is not really justifiable IC only an OOC predisposition that is hard to break.

Perhaps players are really interested in the many plots running on the server, or maybe just trying to make an attempt to escape. They don't care about chosen in the sewers or a swarmer lair. They just want to earn some gold, to build up and hoard their consumables, so that when they can try to move "their plot" forward they are set. Until then, "I'll be damned if I have to use a single blur potion or drop 200 gp in healing supplies."

When it comes down to that situation and their character is unexpectedly in a fight for his life, then they are reluctant to use them since its not on their own terms. If they do use them, and survive their is still some feeling of loss and resentment because "I made it, but look what it cost me....now I'm going to have to run 10 more quests to get that back" Probably a similar feeling to if you get mauled in PvP when it wasn't something that you were planning/instigating.

There is another related psychological factor here: expectations. Players, especially veterans have pretty set expectations for what the scripted quests will be like and what sorts of challenges will be present. If you expect a challenge from the outset, then it conditions your response when it happens. You are less likely to say "I didn't sign up for this." Having a DM appear in the middle of the quest changes things quickly and unexpectedly.

Clearly these aren't shortcomings of the DMs spicing things. I think players need to pretty much be ready for anything at anytime. Its just a lot easier said than done. If you are ready to go with the flow and play along with someone else's plans just as nicely as when pursuing your own (first point above). Then furthermore ready to do this and think on your toes at a minutes notice (second point), then you should be regarded highly.

I'm don't mean to sound like I'm an expert on how to react perfectly to any situation. Quite the opposite, I think these are factors because I know how I would/do feel in those situations, appropriate or not.

Group Hug!

Hey guys. DMs are people too. Don't give them a hard time. Even they have faults.

It is common, especially on scripted quests for people to just enjoy pwning. Even if that means pwning creatures with lame AI.

What exactly is "pwn"ing? I am such a noob...

-Kalos

I think this is all done now.

I think I need another hug.

FRICKEN GLITCHEN