In many cases a DM is not online when some serious PVP needs to go down (People refusing to pay Ledskir Tolls, Arguements, Drunken Brawls outside the pub, Turf Fighting)

For instance there is no way to justify RP wise why you could not attack someone in Lower as to compared to Upper where there is patrolling watchmen.

So I say two things.

1. Remove this rule and only have it stated when attacking an NPC Faction (The Ledskirs, The Red Skulls, The Pissing Crone etc) BUT in the case of Full Damage, a DM IS needed, with the case of it just being subdual (The majority) no DMs are needed. Please?

2. Or the DMs could place a few NPC Ledskir Guards near the staircase (Where alot of PVP brews) and still have the rule stand.

I think than that either, the rule should be lifted in subdual cases or it could be more Roleplaying like and post some more NPC Ledskir Guards about.

If considering the second case, I would hope that the DMs would pull the Ledskir NPCs from the Hall instead of making new ones (and thus boosting the overall Ledskir numbers)

Consider please?

Sorry. I just wanted to make this clearer, since I needed to read it a few times before I fully got your drift. No offense to you.

MexicanGunslinger 1. Alter the new rule to have it state that DM presence is only needed when members of an NPC Faction (eg - the Ledskirs, the Red Skulls, the Pissing Crone, etc) are active in the PvP. A DM should be needed, though, if the PvP is full damage, regardless of the members of the PvP. A DM is not needed if the PvP is subdual only.

I agree with the first suggestion,Today I had a PvP situation which went abit messy since the player was impatient and decided to attack me before the DM arrived.

The player then decided because of his lack of patience and his trap wasted. Not to continue with the PvP. It was a total of 10-15 minutes before a DM arrived at which point the player had logged off for whatever reason.

DM's encourage people to come talk to them about incident in which they feel was metagamed/illegal PvP. At times it is extremely hard to get a DM in time for PvP to happen. For me it just takes the fun factor out of things when you have to wait for a DM to PvP and then the player turns around due to lack of patience and says "I don't want to PvP anymore".

The DM's stated that you could PvP in lower without a DM although it was recommmended to send a simple tell so if a DM was logged on they could enjoy/supervise the spectecle. I felt the DM's believed the community was mature enough to work things out for themselves. Now the only reason I can think of for them revoking this exception is that a minority of people have abused this trust.

I may be completely wrong on what occured to make this ruling come about but this is simply my thoughts on it.

I was under the impression that it was due to the fact that there are a few score of armed dwarves in blue armor standing about now. That is to say, there's some semblance of a "law" faction in lower, which is why you can't PvP in upper without a DM, but you can PvP in the wilds without a DM.

There is not enough though Secutor the main posting of the Ledskirs is in the merchant area and that is about it.

I'd prefer the rule stays as it is, to prevent L2 and L3 new humanoid and monster PCs from getting beat on unfairly and unnecessarily.

-SaRF

Yea, I got attacked as level 2 going to delivery a note to ibrandul there once, It was pretty lame cause the person that attacked me basically killed me in 1 hit, I had 1 HP left.

Squall and Rinoa Forever I'd prefer the rule stays as it is, to prevent L2 and L3 new humanoid and monster PCs from getting beat on unfairly and unnecessarily.

-SaRF

Hence why if you feel you are griefed, you should tell the DM's. Monsters PC's can also be Killed just because they're monsters.

As well as preventing lower from becoming an Arena server of its own.

A DM is not always available-especially if you are a new player trying the server out. If I was a new player and I got mugged or killed just for walking through Lower, I'd be upset, and probably quit. And yes, feel free to point to the signs that Lower is dangerous or whatnot-but there are Fedex quests that take you to Lower. So, my point stands. If you're so PvP-happy that you can't wait for a DM to engage in it-or if you're getting into so much PvP that a DM can't supervise it all-you might want to take a step back, instead of asking for laxer rules.

-SaRF

I'm with the first suggestion.

Please bear note: Subdual PVP should not need to be DMd in Lower. Full Damage should need be DMd. And it's pretty easy for onlookers to notice when either is going down, and for the players inolved to merely send a tell on the DM channel informing that Subdual PVP will be taking place.

Berosion Please bear note: Subdual PVP should not need to be DMd in Lower.

Myfanwe

Berosion Please bear note: Subdual PVP should not need to be DMd in Lower.

This is your subjective opinion. What are your arguments?

Not to be pedantic, but all of these arguments are subjective, there's no right or wrong answer, each choice has its benefits and ills. Some of his arguments are underneath. He can't use any proper evidence to back up his arguments unless he's done a survey or something similar.

More on topic, I prefer Lower PvP requiring a DM to ensure new players aren't turned off of the surver, and so they can smooth out any OOC issues that arise during the conflict (Getting up from subdual, attacking Ledskir PCs in visible sight of Ledskir NPCs ectera)

The rule was reinstated unfortunately in response to a number of integral PvP rules being broken. We decided that having a DM there in all cases of PvP was the best preventative measure.

I'm going to have to go with Nickless and Squall on some of their arguments. I generally dislike it when lower level PC's (under level 5) get attacked by higher levels - they do not stand a chance. There are exceptions of course, but if someone is just trying to do a simple fed-ex quest it is pretty lame.

The problem that seems to be presented is pretty solvable as long as the gang member(s) make sure a DM is online before they go out and find situations that may involve PvP, and make sure that DM can teleport to them should they require it.

I agree that it is an impediment to RP, but at the same time the old way simply kept itself open to disputes.

Maybe I'll try and come down and wipe out the Ledskir NPC's standing around in lower... That might solve part of the problem, at least. :P

Just to reiterate, no L2/3 PCs have been attacked by anybody just for the sake of it. Our playerbase is alot more mature than that, thankfully!

MadCaddies Just to reiterate, no L2/3 PCs have been attacked by anybody just for the sake of it. Our playerbase is alot more mature than that, thankfully!

Mine was, I was running around lower, doing deliveries and a ledskir yelled at me stop. I didn't see it the first time. I stopped after he said it the second time. And he just attacked me.

Nickless Not to be pedantic, but all of these arguments are subjective, there's no right or wrong answer, each choice has its benefits and ills. Some of his arguments are underneath. He can't use any proper evidence to back up his arguments unless he's done a survey or something similar.

I am all for All PvP to be DM supervised. If that is to much, if you plan to FD someone, You MUST have a dm. Nough said.

As a Lowerman almost as much as Canzah, and most reccently a Ledskir who has seen a good deal of PvP (Usually me getting my face smashed in since i'm the weakest one around :D), I say you should at least send a heads up to the /DM channel for Subdual.

Granted there's times when you can't get a DM, you should maybe do the old "Pfeh. Not worth my time" and wait until a DM is present.

Lower, once upon a time, especially without this rule, was freakin' annoying because folks would off you without too much RP or warning.The rule is in place for a good reason. While it is RP anarchy, OOCly there should be some courtesy.

For Subduel, I'd say -maybe- do it without a DM, but FD unless totally avoidable, should be avoided, no matter what IC excuse you make.

I'm 100% for a DM in all situations of PVP. And not just to protect the little guy. Sometimes you need to throw out something like choking powder, and NPC's that wouldn't attack a raging fully buffed fighter/barbarian rawr-ness, auto-attack them and get one shotted by an AoO cause they attacked unarmed.

Silly things like that can be prevented.

One time I had to butcher Mary cause she wouldn't stop trying to man-handle Gurtog.

That can be avoided with a DM. I've been in too many bad PVP's in lower in recent memory to not want a DM, even if I'm going to be the one getting pwnt.

There is no new law in Lower.

We as DMs would love nothing more for Lower to be free PVP again, but after having the vast majority of PVP in lower end in players complaining/cheating/whatever it was decided that it was unfortunately necessary to re-apply normal PVP rules to the area.

A tad off-topic:

Meldread

Maybe I'll try and come down and wipe out the Ledskir NPC's standing around in lower... That might solve part of the problem, at least. :P

Heh. I did that once. They just reappeared next reset... :cry:

Pup A tad off-topic:

Meldread

Maybe I'll try and come down and wipe out the Ledskir NPC's standing around in lower... That might solve part of the problem, at least. :P

Heh. I did that once. They just reappeared next reset... :cry:

They have a great recruiting department.

I am for anything that reduces DM intervention. I often play when no DMs are on, and it leads to frustrating OOC decisions. You are no longer thinking "How can I best RP my character", or "what would be the most fun thing to do here" (for me these are the two most important character motivations). Instead you end up thinking "Since there is no DM to supervise, how can I avoid this conflict without RPing my character baddly?".

I think Ledskirs should have the same initiating combat rights in Lower as Watchmen do in Upper. A protection mugging in Lower is the same as an arrest in Upper imo.

The only problem with that is the fact that the Ledskir's do not control the Lower Sanctuary streets. They simply do not have the man power to make it possible. Therefore, it is not a faction area for them - Upper Sanctuary is filled with patrolling watchmen and there is very little you can do without being spotted by one. The Ledskir's pretty much control the market, the auction house, and the gambling hall - that's it.

Yea, I got attacked as level 2 going to delivery a note to ibrandul there once, It was pretty lame cause the person that attacked me basically killed me in 1 hit, I had 1 HP left.

This annoys me. YOU ARE ENTERING LOWER! This is NOT APART OF SANCTUARY! It is a very VERY dangerous place. YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO ENTER LOWER, YOU ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK.

You can stay in Upper and still quest. -_-/

That's true, but I don't think that is the point. We - as experienced players - know this to be true. Someone who has just joined the server and trying to figure out things for the first time does not. They'll eventually stumble down there and run into a situation.

Now, this isn't always bad. This could lead to the person thinking, 'Wow, this server is cool. They have freakin' gangs roaming the streets!' However, it could just as easily devolve into, 'Wow, this server sucks. I was just walking around and got ganked because some asshole wanted my gold.'

Obviously, it's more preferable for the first reaction than the second. With a DM required you'll be guaranteed that the second does not happen - at least not without breaking the rules.

I, like many that have posted, agree with the sentiment of MGS's post. I have witnessed and have had some involvement in lower PVP.

Much of it was excellent, fair and enjoyed by all. ( :wink: Canzah).

However i have also seen the less nice, immersion breaking, OOC unpleasentness brought about by it.

Does the bad outway the good? I agree with Metro and Caddies and unfortauntely think that the change was needed

I am in full support of the change. Having been in two PvP instances when DM intervention was needed after the event, for whatever reason, because a DM wasn't present to oversee it, I can safely say this change is for the better. Less people get griefed that way.

No halfbrood it stops RP from being the way it should be, it has nothing to do with that griefing crap, if someone thinks they got griefed they should take an SS and send it to the DMs.

If they are not willing to do that they should not complain.

Say if the rule was lifted and you were griefed you take an SS and things can happen, this is a game its not like anything that happens will be permement especially when it is against the rules.

The PvP that I have witnessed in lower has been minimal, but always well RP'ed. I know that when I enter lower I am always cautious because you never know if them damned Ledskirs are about ;)

However (I can only speak for what I have witnessed), the latest time I saw PvP in Lower it was involving a couple of Ledskirs and they didn't even attack until after a "toll" had been paid, but then the individual decided to insult them. Even then they simply subdued the individual and walked away. Now I do believe that particular player was new to the server and got upset, but hopefully after he/she cooled down they realized all they had really lost was some dignity, because I had paid their toll for them ;)

I do not know much about the mechanics of the server and I am not sure if you can be looted when subdued, but if you can't, I think the only time you need DM intervention is when you are fighting to the death.

I say this because recently my (now deceased) dwarf character was walking around Lower and encountered two goblins. What would have resulted in some interesting PvP was instead reduced to name calling and threats (I tried to get a DM's attention on the DM channel, but I believe none were on, and I didn't want to break any rules). I guess my point is...

Sometimes PvP just happens (or at least should).

-Kalos

People are very pro-active about reporting abuses of PVP and i think the DM's would prefer to spend time making cool stories and spicing stuff up and managing exciting PVP, than dealing with yet another issue of PVP gone-bad in lower.

I would guess that is a major driver behind bringing lower in line with upper in regard to PVP?

Not to mention that enforcing a rule like this probably requires just as much DM time as it would take without it. With it, a DM must be present at all times when there's PVP and may have to skip to-and-fro PVP instances without opportunity to do anything other than act arbiter. In addition, the rule won't stop what little griefing occurs - it only serves to illegalize more actions which should be entirely legit RP on the sole basis that no DM was there to see it.

Obviously, there's differences from case to case - I mean, if there's a major FD battle between Ledheads and Whoevers or something that's different to mr Goblin being subdued by Dwarf Hero #4. As long as battles are on subdual damage only, I still believe that a DM shouldn't need to be present. It would take load off DMs to do more important things than watch some PVP which isn't going to result in any deaths ANYWAY (at most a looted corpse).

Difference is though that DM's enjoy watching and managing PVP and spending time doing that...

They probably less enjoy, having numerous complaints and OOC bad feeling and disputes to deal with

The thing is, everyone hates to loose. You get angry you argue/bitch I even do it from time to time, it happens. However, I take the time look at it and say why am I bitching? This is an RP Server things went down in an RP manner.

You dont want PvP you dont want to Risk your char, than THINK SMART, look at Lower to me personally it should be one thousand times harsher and crueler but there is alot of OOC Consideration.

You roleplay your char, his emotes actions, his life in Sanctuary. Why take things OOC? Unless it was against the rules.

You dont wanna take risks, simply dont enter Lower, it is that simple. People bitch call it unfair that they were beatin/ganged up on, it was their own fault! You are NEVER forced to Enter Lower.

This is why I think it needs to be more harsher starting with the adjusting of the PvP rule.

I believe for Subdual fighting, it shouldn't be needed. Jump a guy, take a few things, leave the rest, send him on his way.

Sadly, folks get greedy/whatever, and we end up with naked people running around lower. In real life i've never seen a man beaten naked, robbed of everything, and then left to bleed. Maybe its just me.

Its a case of ""One bad apple ruining it for the bunch", but at the same time the rule is not exorbitant. Every time I've PvP'd in lower, a DM was more than willing to come on by and overview it. The issue is this:

People run before you get a DM

Granted this is as much my/myfaction's fault as anyones, if you stop someone for a toll while you're sitting around shooting the shit, toss word to a DM channel, most PC's get very "Go fuck yourself" with insults, then run off, only to have a DM inform you he's free after they've already ran.

I don't know if that's abusing the fact that us beatery types are forced to talk to a DM before anything goes down, or what, but usually in doubt I've figured this was always the best:

"/DM Some PvP About to go down in lower".

One line. That's it.If a DM doesn't respond, usually you say "Its not worth our time" then back off. Or, if its IC Sensible, Crack their skull.

Usually Dms like to watch PvP. I've never had a DM say "No." IG to me. "I'm busy, in a minute" or "I'm running a quest, I think <so and so> is free, Ask him", but never flat out "STFU AND LOG OFF NO PVP 4 U".

As the attacker, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

As the person being attacked, cut us lowerboys some slack, and understand that we're trying to get a DM when we're not talking. Its not an invitation for you to go "WOLOLOL U CNT TOUCH ME WITH NO DM!" [runs around insulting/flaunting]

9/10 times, That's when people say "Oh well. I told a DM, its clobbering time"

Exactly and think about it, the Ledskirs toll people if they refuse and run off what happens? They get on a list say? Or there face gets remembered? You still cant touch them even though they can come to Lower as many times as they like until you get a DM.

Perhaps this rule doesn't apply anymore, or maybe it's not even true at all, but I've been told before that PvP DOES NOT require a DM if there are no NPCs watching. Someone please tell me if that's true or not.

I think Vlaid nailed it earlier. The main reason you need a DM for PvP is because of the NPCs who are around.

Won't someone think of the NPCs?

And what if the PVP goes on in Lower but out of sight of NPCs? There's been a lot of such as well.

Peronaly im all for the current Pvp rules in lower because with the old rules there were (in my mind at least) far to many grey areas examples being one of the people involved being something like spellguard (most Npc's in lower probably would react if they knew it was one of them) or having a pvp that starts in lower but ends up in Mycoplis or the temple of hoar.

Perhaps this rule doesn't apply anymore, or maybe it's not even true at all, but I've been told before that PvP DOES NOT require a DM if there are no NPCs watching. Someone please tell me if that's true or not.

In -areas- without blue (nonhostile) NPCs, you don't need a DM for PVP - but you should always ask for one anyway. The difference is, if none reply, you can proceed. Example areas would be the Mines, the Badlands, the Sewers, etc.

Lower as an area has NPCs. You need a DM. The Last Stand has NPCs, so even if you're in a closed room you need a DM.

If you begin a fight in an empty area and it spreads to an area with NPCs, then the person has escaped if no DM is present. For example, if you attack someone in the Sewers and they run into Sewer Town, they have escaped. If you attack someone in the empty SE Lower Outskirts, and they run into Lower, they have escaped. If you attack someone in the Badlands, and they run to Mur, they have escaped. And so forth.

If I knew that rule 5 of my characters would of survived! :D

Don't worry, it was hilarious how they died.

I see no problem with the current ruling of requiring a DM in Lower. Arguments that it infringes on RP is weak; as many arguments can be made on how it improves RP. I've noticed a significant positive RP difference in PvP when the attacker knew that a DM was observing, versus when one was not.

I'm skeptical of whether the current rule greatly reduces PvP opportunities in Lower, but, regardless, there are -still- plenty of areas where PvP can occur without the presence of a DM. And the victims there are more likely to be veteran players who understand and appreciate PvP on the server.

If the only way you can have fun on the server is to have PvP in Lower without a DM presence, there's something seriously wrong. There are a lot of real-life OOC decisions we make about our RP, and the current PvP rule is probably the -least- common consideration among players regarding their RP.

JackofSword, it is putting to much reliance on the DMs i personally like to play freely without having to wait around for a DM or by having my roleplay affected because I know a DM is watching, sure people RP alot more better when they know a DM is watching but EfU should not heavily rely on DMs to do normal roleplaying, alot of roleplaying leads to PvP. you cant call it weak that is just pathetic. It DOES affect roleplay because roleplay has to be PAUSED basically, you cant say oh not worth my time etc? it makes no sense.

If your character ICly wants to ATTACK someone in Lower they should be free to do so.

They were, and it began to be a problem. This will soon be locked unless someone adds something new to the discussion.

The problem with free pvp, is that people will abuse it. As they have in the past.

Having DM supervision over PvP reduces the amount of heavy rule bending or breaking in this regard. Just as players RP differently, so are they less likely to pull a stunt like mechanics abuse or something similar in the presence of a DM.

And personally, when it comes to the unplanned and/or forced retiring of a character through FD PvP, a player should have a way out of that situation. Whether they take it or not, that is a different story, but the choice to live should always be available. Even if it means you are robbed clean and tossed out into the underdark to fend for themselves.

djspectre all you are doing is basically saying "Players should have to pause roleplaying go ooc to get a dm before going back to roleplaying, the player must still be IG but cannot RP as they must go OOC in order to continue their RP which in this case is PVP.

And they should, MGS.

I think this Proverbial Horse has been beaten worse than Rodney king.

The DMs seem pretty adamant on their stance.

Power to the people? :(

It didn't work.