I say this as an user and victim of the spell, I have been in both roles. The way Hold Person works in Efu [And the NWN engine] makes it a level 3 instant death spell when the caster has a way to deal damage to the victim. I propose you make it work like in P&P.

"The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)"

Can you make a script that allows the victims to make a save against the spell each round? It would help balance; far too often have I seen great warriors die with ease. It's overpowered the way it works right now. Failing the save spells death when the attackers aren't alone, a level 3 instant death spell!

Its only round/level and, being a level two spell, the save is ordinarily quite easy to bypass. I really don't think it needs to be changed.

It's a level three spell for wizards.

That doesn't matter...its innate level is 2 still!

This isn't necessarily an instant death spell, though it is nice. While it certainly has its uses, it's far from being overpowered in most cases. (Neutral casters are not something I am overly fond of for this particular reason.) Still, despite being a victim/user of this spell, it feels fine to me for now.

Concur.

It's a good spell, not great, and definitely doesn't need nerfery.

Oh, but it does matter! I like the spell. It really doesn't last that long and doesn't have that high of a DC, and it's easy to block.

If this could be scripted it would be great, but I have no idea about the possibilities of such. I imagine if it could be done, it would have been done already.

I think this spell is uber powerful. I dont mind mages having it, but clerics at lvl 3 really dont need it.

Technically in PnP HP is more powerful not less so, since Prot from Alignment does not work against all mental saves, just control and suggestion ones. Ergo the easy counter available on EfU is gone. If you have a save every round but your cheap and accessable counter is gone, then you are still coming out behind as a werewolf (or whatever is fighting the caster).

Hold person + Evard's tentacles is a deadly combo that can destroy nearly anyone, even a level 10 fighter. I'm sure there are a lot of GSF Enchantment wizards out there with Hold Person DCs reaching 23... and if it's extended... :s . If it can be, I think Hold Person should be nerfed to what Jasede suggests.

Pure mages have little to no Discipline or Spot/Listen. Invis/Stealth + KD spam is equally lethal to Invis + Hold Person. It all comes down to preparation, for both sides -- it's more than feasible to get a decent Will save vs. mind spells in EfU, even without PfA.

Like most spells, it's easy enough to protect against with the proper countermeasure.

There are -lots- of things that are instant death, when you've no companions with you. I don't see Hold Person being any more effective than other methods, it's simply used more frequently for a lack of imagination.

No reason to nerf it.

Remove it from the Cleric side of the Force.

Infestation of Maggots' where it's at.

Obedience would know.

Snot for the win.

Spell is not going to be changed. IMO, the classes are pretty balanced for our setting.

What, even Monks?

[Then again, not that it matters. Monks are retarded. What were you thinking, WotC? Damn japanophilia.]

Okay, I'm going to clear this up.

Clerics are already a cheap class. The fact they can heal/buff themselves, are proficient with all armour, and have mad undead-turning skillz. Deal with it. At least they're not *that* good in battle.

Wizards will die if not accompanied. What's the Wizard gonna do once his thirdly-prepared Hold is turned with a save against a Deep Lizard? Run like Hell, tha's what.

Sorcerers-see above, only in a different fashion.

If there's anything at all that needs nerfing, is the Cleric Class. Maybe take Hold from them.

Anthee Obedience would know.

So what if Hold Person is somewhat nice. "A level two/three death spell" ? The alternative is PhK. You won't hear me deny that Mages are unbeatable when it comes down to PvP when they play it right; but there's not a single class which couldn't put a Mage on his place. So! Yeah, GSF: Enchantment is nice. Neutral aligned characters are therefore somewhat bitchy to have a run in with-

But get real: Hold Person (even when extended, with a DC22 focus) isn't a real drama. If a Mage can kill you using that, he'll be sure as damned able to kill you plenty other ways to which you'll no way be able to defend yourself.

The Ace Of Blades Okay, I'm going to clear this up.

Clerics are already a cheap class. The fact they can heal/buff themselves, are proficient with all armour, and have mad undead-turning skillz. Deal with it. At least they're not *that* good in battle.

Wizards will die if not accompanied. What's the Wizard gonna do once his thirdly-prepared Hold is turned with a save against a Deep Lizard? Run like Hell, tha's what.

Sorcerers-see above, only in a different fashion.

If there's anything at all that needs nerfing, is the Cleric Class. Maybe take Hold from them.

On the other hand, when well roleplayed, clerics are among the best catalysts for IC conflict: you already have an agenda to follow, all you need to do is to find the means to put it into action in EfU. Wars of faith and cults based around a certain deity have always been among the best of ways to get an interesting plot rolling with much of the playerbase involved. So all in all, the increased power of clerics in EfU compared to other base classes can be considered as a reward of sorts for taking up the task of proactively involving other characters in your deity's schemes.

I don't think I ever viewed it this way. Clerics have always been overpowered in D&D 3.0+ but this is a good way to put it.

Jasede What, even Monks?

[Then again, not that it matters. Monks are retarded. What were you thinking, WotC? Damn japanophilia.]

Pure monks make for incredible opponents. FFS. There's really not a single underpowered class or a single completely overpowered spell. Goin' all the way off topic.

Monks can use certain potions to enhance their AC (Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom, Mage Armor) where fighters can not, backed up by a stunning fist easily reaching DC16/18. Not to mention three attacks per round without haste at +4 AB/punch when the opponent is stunned! What a drag. 8) Sorry.

Jasede I don't think I ever viewed it this way. Clerics have always been overpowered in D&D 3.0+ but this is a good way to put it.

The only underpowered class in our module is luckily enough, application-only. I don't think there's a single 'build' which wouldn't be able to take on another while prepared. An unprepared Cleric with Hold Person memorized or a Mage with pretty much any spell set won't be able to, in most cases, match up against well coordinated PvP.

Anthee knows.

:roll:

We're on a tangent, and the original topic has been resolved.