Well - It's obvious the initial question of Sternhund went on a tangent on that topic...

So to avoid further threadjacking - I propose we bring this discussion here that has been hit by a hammer many times.

I'm going to throw a few topics that were written a year ago that sum up on factions, etc.

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/11/11055/an-observation/index.html?amp;start=0

A small addendum: Factions are extraordinairely useful tools in telling amazing stories, they have loads of potential, and belonging to one not only gives you the support of your fellow PCs, but the authority and support of the NPCs.

Support is endless, usually NPCs (although they might prevent you to abuse) will support PC members in ways they can.

So, what I thought is that the current Playerbase might not be inspired by the factions: Perhaps it is due to current faction members not showing or inspiring people with the possibilities open to you what you can do with the factions, etc. [i.e.] In the past, when faction population were low, some PCs wrote basicallly interesting plot hooks about what it meant to be in that faction..

Usually people were in awe of the coolness of people in DM faction.

So maybe a little informing of the new players of what a DM faction offers and provides and what possibilities it opens as a PC to tell good stories:

I thought this post was well-written on the old Watch, directed by Eugene Walters:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/91/9101/a-watch-recruitment-topic/index.html?amp;highlight=watch+recruitment

Anyway- I thought people should know Player faction are a good way to get involved. They are a nice start, so to speak. Afterwards, you might want to open up your possibilities and move into the positions with more responsibility, but more options!

I do think the Dm Factions need improvement, That said I think the key here is to remeber one faction just not limit you from joining other player factions.

You can be part of watch, and still help out the beacon.

You can be in Cave Wyrm Clan and still have other loyalties.

You can be a Ledskir and still be part of a diety based faction.

on and on and on

Dm Factions are great for one primary reason, Introduction. It is a great way to meet people on server, get to know the server, and get a general feel for underdark. If it is a new char or just a char who wants to learn more about underdark i'd highly recommend it.

Player factions of course offer a deeper form of personal attention and progression in character, in my opinon. That said I still DM Facitons are good for knowing the lay of the land.

I would actually say exactly the opposite, ShatteredShadow. I've been a member of a few factions now, and I've started and run a few player factions. Player factions are great because they're easier to get involved in, and they can have interesting objectives and goals, but really they're the poor man's DM faction.

The DM factions all have deeper backgrounds than any PC faction, and the DM factions are in unique positions of power in Sanctuary that enable you to accomplish very interesting goals and to interact with players in a way that player factions simply can't. But honestly I don't even think this is an issue. Faction involvement comes in waves, and I'm sure that in a little while there'll be too much interest in one DM faction or another! I don't think that the numbers will ever be perfect, but we just have to deal with it.

I wouldn't say player factions are a poor man's DM faction. They're different, in that they -don't- have a history/NPC authority. The reason they seem to be discredited often is because its so extremely hard to run a very successful player faction.

I can't express enough how much we love having all our DM factions filled! When they are, the server becomes much, much more interesting. We throw a heap of things at factions when they have more than like, two members. Quests, plots, you name it. Right now, I have to admit the DM team is kind of disappointed in the extremely low numbers in our DM factions. We're aware that it does indeed come in waves, but on our end we're also currently looking at ways to further emphasize them, and thereby hopefully make them more attractive.

On a final note, its not hard to write an application guys! I know it may be daunting (as a player with my first app I spent a whole deal of time fretting over whether it would get approved, how long to make it, what the goals should be, etc.) but honestly, I'd say we approve -way- apps than the ones we reject. So give it a try. :)

As a semi DM i want to jump on board and say APPLY APPLY APPLY especially to be a spellguard. or a watchman

If you want people to join get some better spokespeople out there recruiting, the current watch recruiters are a bit lack luster.

On flip side you guys just made ledskirs and nancies and there ranks did swell, and you did big events, and then one side one and now it's just bleh.

Ok, this is totally biased but I'm going to throw it out there :P

I'd like to see a few of the long term established player factions get more DM support or even become DM run factions themselves. [ahem..stouthearts forever! :D ] There are a few player factions that have survived and thrived over the last 2 years and have gotten DM love from time to time however it would be great have more DM support or even some NPC's added to the factions.

I think if the number of DM factiosn is increased by a few, then it would give players more choice in what sort of role that they want to play on EfU. Not everyone wants to be a watchman or wizard or barbarian. Yes these factions come with nice perks but lets widen the range. 8)

I've gotta say that I've always enjoyed my DM faction characters a LOT more than the others, and that any Player factions I've been in or tried to start inevitably seemed to fall flat.

I agree, Kotenku, and I've been in a lot of both.

DM factions seem to far outstrip PC factions for interaction with other players, in or out of the DM faction , and having been in both, I found a dm faction will keep you involved with multiple pc's , every time you log in, where pc factions tend to be only with the other pc's in that faction, and minimal interaction with those outside of it . At least that has been my experience, but I am still a novice by a long shot..

I would have to give props to the stoutheart faction though, they have almost made themselves a DM faction, sans the npc's. I am biased though, as I started on the server a year? ago with them. But that is how it should be, if your PC faction survives two years in real time, has it's own base and other perks won through rp and interaction, it should steadily evolve into a DM type faction, but I see that as the exception rather then the rule, most player factions do not seem to last much more then a month or two. But then again, the underdark is a harsh place, and most characters tend to have a short lifespan as well, shorter if your green or scaley. :twisted:

Player factions can quickly rise to be more prominent/influential than DM factions - at least in the player side of things. DM factions will, obviously, always (?) be able to count with certain very powerful NPCs, but don't underestimate what a good player faction can do. Here are a few points that might add to the discussion:

Dependable Players: This is the most important point of all. When making a player faction, make sure you pick people who are going to be logging on, and doing things. This is not a carte-blanche statement for people to ignore the newbies - sometimes they're the ones with the most enthusiasm, and can help get things going very quickly. Pick your players well, and your faction will thrive.

Characters with similar IC goals: This one is much easier if you make a player faction that has a broader appeal to the character-base - a mercenary company who will offer to hire just about anybody will enjoy far quicker success than, say, a wizards' covenant. Try and broaden your appeal as best as you can - if you find your faction is too restrictive in its membership, try and hire people to do smaller, less important jobs, or try to open a different job for different characters. A wizards' covenant that only accepts wizards might be awesome, sure, but I promise you it will have a much harder time surviving its first few weeks than a group that decides it's a good idea to hire grunts as, say, bodyguards. To keep it simple: Find roles in your organization that can be filled by just about anyone - people will tend to stick around if they see they're actively contributing to the success of the group, even if they're not top dog.

Numbers are the most impressive way to recruit: Pretty self-explanatory - nothing says, "we're an up-and-coming, interesting and fun" player-led faction like a group of six people walking around in uniform. It sounds shallow, but, really, a lot of the 'presence' of the DM factions comes down to the fact that there's lots of people wearing the same clothes, going places together, and doing generally the same things. People are drawn to groups that look like they're tight and know what they're doing.

ALWAYS recruit: If you're the leader of a top official in a player-led faction, welcome to my personal brand of hell. It's a nightmare (albeit a very fun nightmare) to keep everyone on board with you all the time. People are going to disagree for all sorts of reasons, characters are going to die and people are just going to quit the server or the group for one reason or another - which is basically a fancy way of saying, the 'mortality rate' of your members will ALWAYS be bigger than the 'natality rate' if you don't actively recruit pretty much all of the time. Every scripted quest, every DM event, every talk in the tavern is a chance to get to know someone else's character, interact with them and get them to join you.

Keep things simple: No point in dreaming up a sixteen-tier bureaucratic juggernaut of a faction if you're only going to have six, seven members -- let's face it, it'll be ridiculous, cumbersome and boring.

Delegate: If a faction cannot function without its leader online, it's either a small faction that hasn't been fully structured yet, or something is badly wrong. The last thing you want is for the people in your group to 'go about their business' when you're not online. If they pledge to be in the faction and to help the faction, they should keep working towards the goals even when the leader is not online. The best way to ensure that this happens is to give everyone a job, and quickly identify the strongest lieutenants in your group, so that you can give them the authority to make the calls when you're not there.

Work up an M.O.: This is the hardest, but the most important. The reason why some PC factions work like well-greased machines, and others die within days of their inception is simple - the ones that work have things to do. What do I mean, 'things to do'? It's simple - whenever someone comes up with an idea to do something, that faction can quickly spring up a plan to do it within the framework of the faction - anyone can act on a DM tip to go look for some hidden treasure in the middle of nothing with a group. Only a well-oiled, excellently-structured faction can go look for hidden treasure with a well-balanced, motivated, trustworthy and strong group, within FIVE MINUTES of the DM pitch. It's simple - make sure your group is -always- ready - be it combat-ready, or whatever-it-is-they-do-ready. If you decide to put together a troupe of artists that are against the establishment and will constantly perform happenings throughout Sanctuary to undermine the power of the Status Quo by bringing awareness to the people of just how fucked up their lives are, then make sure you can be ready to go with whoever is in your faction, within five minutes of something. Nothing says 'We own' like a group that can get together and work proactively towards the same goal within five minutes.

Obviously, all of these depend on the luck of finding like-minded characters to join your own in game. But when things look bleak and no one seems interested in your idea, then it's time to go back to the drawing board and think it back up.

I hope this helps.

Kia, that's all great stuff.

As per the "Which is better?" question, I think they're really just two different monsters. PC factions are HARD. They take a lot of effort, especially if you're leading them. They rarely have easily accomplished goals as well, as opposed to DM factions where the goals are clearly defined and their solutions are usually pretty straightforward.

That being said, the glee of accomplishment in PC factions is much sweeter than accomlishing neat DM faction things if you enjoy great challenges and don't mind failure. If you're more of a "I really just like winning, to be honest." (which by the way, I am one of them) then DM factions are going to be a better route.

In the end, they're both awesome ways to go, but we NEED DM factions to have an enriched server and we don't have a pressing need for PC factions. So hold off that merc group idea, and roll out with your Watchmen, your Spellguard Agents, your Society Members, and your Lower thug Pissing Crone employees!

Garem

As per the "Which is better?" question, I think they're really just two different monsters. PC factions are HARD. They take a lot of effort, especially if you're leading them.

This is so true however if you have really committed players who agree to work together for your player faction, great things can be achieved.

I believe the problems that a lot of player factions suffer is player burn-out, a key leader in the faction PC either dies or the player is unable to play and most of all, not having a long term vision in regards to your factions goals/aspirations. In addition, keeping faction members interested and active is a struggle as well. It's all very well having a great plan for server domination with spreadsheets, pie charts and a carefully worked out time table but if you don't have any supporters/minions/troops/canon fodder etc then you will have no luck in your attempt and subsequently your faction will fall apart.

I believe that player factions should have short [easy], medium [moderately difficult] and long term [hard] objectives that they will work towards. Don't expect to get all of them done in a month, some thing take a LOT of time and of course, a lot of things require DM support in order to make it happen. I think this is where a lot of factions fall apart as well, in that they start up with a good premise and a number of committed players but then do not see immediate results or DM love and thus get discouraged. DON'T GIVE UP! Be persistant! Send in those emails and contact the DM team. The worst that can happen is they say no but they also can say, yeah..we can do that or we can do it not like you haver asked but this way instead. Either way, be patient and consistant nd you will eventually be rewarded for your efforts.

I should point out, I did not mean to imply, in my initial post, that player factions are necessarily a bad thing. Contrarily, I have seen some great player factions that have accomplished much. What I meant, simply, was that, rather than 7 different mercenary companies, consider if not one of the DM factions can offer you exactly what you're looking for, in one way or another. Scouting group? Watch scouts, Seekers, or Society. Mercenaries? Hell, they could fit in almost anywhere, maybe with the exception of Seekers and Society. Not inclined to write an application? Consider the Spellguard Associates, or any other player faction directly tied to a DM faction (these, admittedly, are not longer very prominent).

My point was, Sanctuary doesn't need three different scouting companies, neither from an OOC perspective nor from an IC perspective. OOC, inter-faction relationships would thrive with more players (this should be an obvious fact); IC, much more could be achieved from 12 people working closely together than three groups of four working closely together on the same matter. Even more can be achieved if those 12 people, to some extent, has backup from powerful NPCs and sources of knowledge long since lost to character turn-around.

Understandably, it can be very frustrating if an application to join a faction that suits one's character is rejected, but it is folly to just give up (and, possibly, make -- yet another -- player faction). Ask the DMs what was wrong with the application and how you can make it better. Then ask the characters representing the faction what you need to do to prove yourself. It's not like you only have one chance!

Bottom line: Before you start a brand new (and probably not at all original >.>) player faction, consider if not one the DM factions offers what you're looking for, even though it may take a bit of work before you can get there (which, in itself, can also be good fun!).

Don't believe Snoteye's libel about the Spellguard Associates! They're as active as ever with some veteran players and some great new players. Join the Spellguard Associates. We'll love you.

Snoteye is right.

We really don't need bloat right now, with our limited dm/playerbase. We need people joining and/or aligning themselves with DM factions.

As a side note-

Player Factions are excellent (Kiaring's post has some great tips), especially so when connected with a DM faction. A group of mechanically-inclined gnomes closely aligned with the Spellguard would be an example of this.

The important thing is getting involved in one of the Cities established "metafactions" (be it Upper, Lower, the Wilderness, and so on) so we have an easier time including everyone in the action.

For the record, the goal of a player faction should be that it operates independently of DMs, on a strictly player-to-player basis. The awesome thing about this is that you set up a way to take initiative to make the server more fun for yourself and others.

PC factions are -not- poor man's or mini-DM factions at all. They're groups of players bonded together with their own objectives and goals, that operate as a faction on their own. And when done right they rule it hard.

Kiaring Player factions can quickly rise to be more prominent/influential than DM factions - at least in the player side of things. DM factions will, obviously, always (?) be able to count with certain very powerful NPCs, but don't underestimate what a good player faction can do. Here are a few points that might add to the discussion:

Dependable Players: This is the most important point of all. When making a player faction, make sure you pick people who are going to be logging on, and doing things. This is not a carte-blanche statement for people to ignore the newbies - sometimes they're the ones with the most enthusiasm, and can help get things going very quickly. Pick your players well, and your faction will thrive.

Characters with similar IC goals: This one is much easier if you make a player faction that has a broader appeal to the character-base - a mercenary company who will offer to hire just about anybody will enjoy far quicker success than, say, a wizards' covenant. Try and broaden your appeal as best as you can - if you find your faction is too restrictive in its membership, try and hire people to do smaller, less important jobs, or try to open a different job for different characters. A wizards' covenant that only accepts wizards might be awesome, sure, but I promise you it will have a much harder time surviving its first few weeks than a group that decides it's a good idea to hire grunts as, say, bodyguards. To keep it simple: Find roles in your organization that can be filled by just about anyone - people will tend to stick around if they see they're actively contributing to the success of the group, even if they're not top dog.

Numbers are the most impressive way to recruit: Pretty self-explanatory - nothing says, "we're an up-and-coming, interesting and fun" player-led faction like a group of six people walking around in uniform. It sounds shallow, but, really, a lot of the 'presence' of the DM factions comes down to the fact that there's lots of people wearing the same clothes, going places together, and doing generally the same things. People are drawn to groups that look like they're tight and know what they're doing.

ALWAYS recruit: If you're the leader of a top official in a player-led faction, welcome to my personal brand of hell. It's a nightmare (albeit a very fun nightmare) to keep everyone on board with you all the time. People are going to disagree for all sorts of reasons, characters are going to die and people are just going to quit the server or the group for one reason or another - which is basically a fancy way of saying, the 'mortality rate' of your members will ALWAYS be bigger than the 'natality rate' if you don't actively recruit pretty much all of the time. Every scripted quest, every DM event, every talk in the tavern is a chance to get to know someone else's character, interact with them and get them to join you.

Keep things simple: No point in dreaming up a sixteen-tier bureaucratic juggernaut of a faction if you're only going to have six, seven members -- let's face it, it'll be ridiculous, cumbersome and boring.

Delegate: If a faction cannot function without its leader online, it's either a small faction that hasn't been fully structured yet, or something is badly wrong. The last thing you want is for the people in your group to 'go about their business' when you're not online. If they pledge to be in the faction and to help the faction, they should keep working towards the goals even when the leader is not online. The best way to ensure that this happens is to give everyone a job, and quickly identify the strongest lieutenants in your group, so that you can give them the authority to make the calls when you're not there.

Work up an M.O.: This is the hardest, but the most important point, along with 'Dependable Players'. The reason why some PC factions work like well-greased machines, and others die within days of their inception is simple - the ones that work have things to do. What do I mean, 'things to do'? It's simple - whenever someone comes up with an idea to do something, that faction can quickly spring up a plan to do it within the framework of the faction - anyone can act on a DM tip to go look for some hidden treasure in the middle of nothing with a group. Only a well-oiled, excellently-structured faction can go look for hidden treasure with a well-balanced, motivated, trustworthy and strong group, within FIVE MINUTES of the DM pitch. It's simple - make sure your group is -always- ready - be it combat-ready, or whatever-it-is-they-do-ready. If you decide to put together a troupe of artists that are against the establishment and will constantly perform happenings throughout Sanctuary to undermine the power of the Status Quo by bringing awareness to the people of just how fucked up their lives are, then make sure you can be ready to go with whoever is in your faction, within five minutes of something. Nothing says 'We own' like a group that can get together and work proactively towards the same goal within five minutes.

Obviously, all of these depend on the luck of finding like-minded characters to join your own in game. But when things look bleak and no one seems interested in your idea, then it's time to go back to the drawing board and think it back up.

I hope this helps.

EDIT You messed up the thread dimensions !

what I think one flaw with player factions is this. The dificulty of recruiting people without having special gear or a HQ or a free full plate with every member. Sadly one thing most factions offer is gear and a HQ. 2 things most pcs wont afford to have.

I've recruited, and seen player factions recruit very well without anything special. What is required, however, is a steady effort in game at recruiting. This will often mean that you don't do many quests because so much time is spent recruiting members. It can be done though very easily.

What I see lacking in most player factions is an actual purpose for existing. That sadly is where so many get lost.