Now, I know some people have grown mightily fond of playing goblins or kobolds and I got no issues with that. I think it's cool, I like goblins and all, but I still think both of those should be put back as application only again.

Few points: - it separates the already-stretched player-base a lot. It's hard to interact with people if they all are secluded due to ..something like race. I think the moments of role-play between goblins/kobolds and non-goblins/kobolds are so thin and most likely end up the same and repetitive manner that making them back to "app." could force some creativity into the necessity of that subrace.

- There are already tons of factions, group or places you're character might want to belong to and interact with, but if we stretch it too much, it makes for less entertaining conflicts.

- The conflicts that sprung up since their implementation havent been particularly more 'tasteful' with a great proportion of goblins/kobolds players playing them to have a bit of crazy rampage at the expense of non-valuable characters.

- The server was mainly designed to be played by escaped slaves. Although, it is fine for exceptions to populate the world by PCs making it more exotic and alive - I find that goblins/kobolds [en masse] (4+ goblins logged in) making their own little community within a community might make it fun and exotic for that small community but reduces the overall role-play value of the server in the end by reducing the # of interactions between players.

Anyway, that's my final point: It diminishes the # of interactions between players in the end, and the interactions between goblins/kobolds and non-goblins/kobolds arent particularly more rich or interesting than normal interaction if there isnt a goal or a conflict behind them, making the application a worthwhile tool in remaining creative with these kind of characters.

So, think about what I said and disagree or agree.

Hypothetical:

Johnny J sends a well-written app for a standard goblin character. It's processed, and in a week, he gets his approval. Pleased, he begins to play with his new gobbo...and is promptly killed on sight on his first day by Random Upper #1.

Leave blame, tactics, and IC reasons out of it for now. The most important thing is, Johnny needs to write another app. And that sucks. So if apps are going to be necessary then, then I'd counter with suggesting that the PvP rules concerning goblins/kobolds (perfectly justifiable to kill without thought) be removed.

But I hope it doesn't get to that point. So, uh...counterpoints.

-While RP moments between the two races aren't too frequent, that doesn't diminish the RP moments within the goblin/kobold community. Part of the fun of being a goblin/kobold is that you become part of a PC faction automatically upon creation. Every goblin/kobold becomes a member of the party (barring rivalries) and roleplay moments between goblins/kobolds are guarenteed.

-If goblins/kobolds weren't on "kill on sight" status, then hey, there might be varying responses in their roleplay moments. 50% of the time that I come across another non-goblin PC, the reaction is disgust, then I'm usually ignored. 25% I'm on the verge of being attacked. The last 25% of the time they're friendly. It's all IC, proper motivation and all, so really, what can you expect?

-I don't think there are nearly enough goblins/kobolds on the server so that you'd need to worry about gathering enough people for an attack on the gnolls. The most goblins I've seen on at one time was 6-8. Kobolds, 2-3. Considering that the usual amount of people I seen playing at a time is 25, that's about a third. At best. Still plenty of people to interact with.

-As for goals, just like with non goblin/kobold characters, it's up to the player. I said that being a goblin/kobold is like instantly joining a faction. In most cases, the faction's goal is war. The Gruzzle Tribe was peaceful (and before my time, so I'm ignorant) but they're not around. So the goals are all up to the individual players. The conflict is ever present, making itself known every time a goblin on its own happens across a non-goblin.

Just my two cents.

By what I have heard and seen, Drow and Duergar are basically kill on sight as well. The risk of playing them is what you accept when applying. I personally do not really have a preference if they should be on app again but just thought I would chime in with that.

Or perhaps it is time for Team Goblin to come up with a goal that will affect the server, ...

Having goblins and kobolds as non application race is a very good compromise for players who prefer a hair raising, edge of your seat, no loot, no levels, survival game. There are two ways to play EFU, as it is currently, and I think that is a unique strength of the server. Having said this, I do have a few further comments.

Joe Desu Or perhaps it is time for Team Goblin to come up with a goal that will affect the server, ...

Mort It diminishes the # of interactions between players in the end.

1. Bring all the PC's into cooperation or conflict with each other.

2. Streamline the job of the DM, who's job it is to tell a story and include everyone.

I would suggest that if you're interested in accomplishing these things, that you grab some friends, split up into different factions and really focus on figuring out ways to recruit more members. You could even agree not to kill each other the first chance you get and extend the story over personal interests. You could definately talk me into doing this.

Blue41 Hypothetical:

Johnny J sends a well-written app for a standard goblin character. It's processed, and in a week, he gets his approval. Pleased, he begins to play with his new gobbo...and is promptly killed on sight on his first day by Random Upper #1.

Goblins and Kobold were application-only before, and people were WAY more 'considerate' in Full-damaging them for absolutely no reason other than their race.

Hells, I'm all into playing a loner that must find a way to survive.. I tried it as a Drow, it was very fun and different and I understand why people might want this. I'm not 'denying' this, I'm just saying application-only again wouldnt hurt!

And you can still avoid the main factions and interact a lot with people - Goblins/Kobolds are an aspect that is very secluded!

These isn't a complaint against Goblins or Kobolds players, it is a suggestion about the administrative aspect of that segment and its impact on the overall world.

I'd rather have good role-players play humans/ elves/ dwarves/ half-orc that my character might have a worthwhile chance to interact with, then having no one to roleplay with or that 'rare' instance with a goblin/kobold which is: kill them, snob them, threaten them, ignore them and run away.

Then, once a while, a group of players apps. for goblins, and THEY are the sole goblin team of the server making it more interesting for their short lifespan OR long one (dugbone).

I think the experiment has gone well. There has been lots of drama and conflict since the inception of goblins and kobolds becoming non-app races. Some of the most enjoyable moments I've had on NWN were a direct consequence of this; I'm sure many people agree.

The thing is, though-

Kobolds and Goblins aren't worth the application. They get -negatives-, whereas, of course, duergar/drow etcetera are extremely powerful.

I agree with mort for the most part, Goblins and Kobolds are all well and dandy but when 60% of stable RPers on the server are playing them it tends to make interraction around the server as a whole a bit meh. They really do seem to be made just to have some rampage fun and stomp the unsuspecting noob who is forced to rue the day after attacking them.

As for -Penalties wise I don't think it matters so much, I doubt that the majority of the Goblins and Kobolds are prime RP builds they're likely as min maxed as your random half-orc.

I free goblins and kobolds because it allows us to app for stuff better.

The leaders and uber gods of goblin/kobold society.

Like hobgoblins bugbears. I mean those things command the goblins.

And for Kobolds well theres always lizard folk half dragons Trogs etc.

For Doctor D - A kobold would sooner die than be led by some great and stupid walking gekko. Half dragon, sure, but good luck in getting that through.

Anyways!

I have to agree. Ninety percent of the time with these races, the only RP they get with anyone other than their own race is PvP. You get brilliant RP woven into this tightly knit group, but to everyone else it's the dude who's just killed him for wandering into the sewers, or that Goblin that you just hacked in two.

I find the goblins DO ADD EXTRA DRAMA TO SERVER! I found lower a hell of a lot more boring without the goblins, but hey! The goblins add color and life to lower, the blitz raids the goblins into lower were among the best RP moments I ever had.

I have wanted to see this happen for a while, for various reasons mentioned and unmentioned in this thread. Someone add a poll so I know how the average player feels! On a personal note, while I love goblin and kobold PC's, I detest the way things have progressed throughout our EFU experiment with them.

I think they are an interesting option available to all players that wish to try something different, and thus should remain as is!

Just an observation, but the fact that this thread exists and has such well thought out for and against arguments, is a great indicator of the conflict/interaction factor of goblins. Having played both sides of the interaction, the only problem of Application goblins is the aforementioned kill on sight policy for them. Perhaps a kill on sight policy if you have a valid rp reason, not just " I am a dwarf, and so I hate all goblins". Valid would be a reprisal for a goblin attack on your fellows, etc...involving direct interaction with specific pc's not a generic hatred from a source book. Before the monstrous slaver race laws, some of you will remember we had a few goblin NPC's, one even in upper. When that law passed, it changed the dynamic of the server to many races, not just the goblins. But it did seem to facilitate the kill on sight policy. And it is that policy that makes Applying for a goblin less attractive, then a any of the other app. races which come with an ecl and perks. Drow are kill on sight as well, to be true, but I would venture, on an average encounter, a drow is far harder to kill then your random goblin build. I do not see any adversity to the app, if the severity of the kill on sight policy was augmented slightly. Or perhaps the monsterous slaver race law was amended or repealed. There is a plot goal gobbos! Rambled a bit here, but a topic worthy of a few extra keystrokes.

Okay, here we go. I'll try to make one of those long and hopefully reasonable posts.

To start this whole argument, I'll bring up the old "waves" logic. At this particular moment, yes, there are many goblin and kobold players, some perhaps a part of the server's stable roleplayers and some perhaps less experienced and trying something out. However, I do believe this is just a temporary "wave" as to say.

In either way I think it is a positive thing that talented roleplayers choose to play goblins, at least one or two of them, to set an appropriate example for the other goblins and keep them in line as good as they can.

To continue, I have as a player not had as much fun since I played my favorite character on EfU. I started out making a goblin to fool around a little with a bunch of OOC gathered friends, but with time their goblins perished and my remained. I've done those OOC kind of semi-prelude group concepts before, and usually only one or two characters last, but they tend to last because the players enjoy them very much. In my case, that is true.

As for the roleplay interaction of the race, I really don't see a problem with it. There are PCs who will kill a goblin on sight, but there are those who won't aswell. I have experienced both. Even if goblins/kobolds are hunted all the time, most players aren't just out to grief these races, which is good. Also, goblins are a very good group of players to target if your PC wants to gain easy henchmen or just involve a lot of players. Let me make some examples from situations I've been in.

Examples:

#1

A human hunts rats in the sewers, Team Goblin (in this case two goblins) sneaks up on him and starts making subtle threats, demanding a tribute for walking and hunting on goblin land. The human is more than happy to pay, which somewhat suprises the goblins.

This now leads to a more friendly relation between the two parties, and with time, they engage in deeper roleplay and explore eachother's characters. The goblins have now made a human ally.

#2

2: Generic character #203 needs some hard to come by components and is willing to pay for them. He talks to one of the more reliable goblins about it and offers a small bounty for said things, which then makes the message spread through the whole goblin team and suddenly the human has involved a whole lot of players in his little goal.

Point is, as a player of a non goblin/kobold race, you can easily affect a lot of players if you do not express hostility at first sight.

#3

Arch Dwarf of Pwn and Goblin Hating spots a group of five or six goblins strolling about Lower and has every possible reason to kill them. Instead, the dwarf subdues the group of goblins and sends them off with a warning of death the next time they meet.

Now, this is a very good thing to do. For one you might just be OOC considerate, but you are actually giving the goblins a goal at the same time as you are improving the survival feeling. Not using FD at the first encounter, gives a conflict time to grow and it might not be forgotten even after a PC dies.

I think one of the major reasons why interaction between goblins and others races has been minimal and hostile at most are, that the DMs have pointed out that is is not acceptable to associate with food in certain IG situations. At least, that is what I have experienced.

Since goblinds and kobolds are subject to so much PvP, I understand the concern about "stomping unsuspecting noobs", I do not however recall us being unfair in any PvP to this day, even if I have not been present at every one. Usually, we are attacked and in the cases where we outpower the attacker, he is soon badly injured and given the chance to actually draw back. If he decides to heal and buff up and come at us again, okay, let's beat him down and subdue him this time, taking some of his stuff. Then, the third time, he returns with a gank squad. Now that's where my patience runs out and I switch to full damage.

Talking about the natural faction you belong to as a goblin, it is a nice thing, everybody helping eachother out with gear, assistance and advise, in order for the tribe to survive. I remember being taken care of myself as my goblin was new, and now I try to do the same thing for the goblins that come after me. Sure, this kind of automatic PC faction might seem to restrict the goals and possible roads for your goblin to walk down, but there are exceptions to this rule aswell. Not long ago, one of the more prominent goblin PCs was a Cleric of Maglubiyet, and that resulted in any goblin that didn't worship Maglubiyet to be cast away and perhaps even hunted by his own. The same goes for goblins that associate with kobolds, they are pushed away and confronted. Ultimately, it is a decision of the player wheter he wishes to belong to the standard goblin faction or try something else. Goblins who aren't serious and screw up are also quickly dealt with by those who are, for a number of obvious reasons.

Jose Desu wrote:

Or perhaps it is time for Team Goblin to come up with a goal that will affect the server, ...

And as it has been stated before in this thread, goals become hard to achieve just because most goblins have such a short lifespan. However, I personally try to wait and see who can survive and who can't, then I cam deem them worthy or not of plotting with.

To finish, I might've written this more from the perspective of a goblin, but as I am currently playing and enjoying one, that is what it will be. Just my thoughts in the end.

Yeah, please dont get into personal issues or real defensive on it. - what I talk about isnt an accusation, ^_^ It's just about the balance of sub-races.

I dont want this to turn into current goblin/kobold players vs. current non-goblins/kobolds players. This isn't about that!

Plenty of good role-play with goblins before they became open to the public:

Name a few, Grundigle, Squeagle, Grungetoe...

Plenty of kobold with good role-play too; Mxarob, Shadow-tribe ones, the Ambassador, etc.

If 1/5 of the players on the servers at any one point, [i.e. 2 goblins/kobolds when there is 10 players online.] I find.. the balance is off in my book. Encounter with 'tough' or 'diplomatic' goblins/kobolds with class-levels PC should be seldom and rare.

You can still play them, It isnt a complain about goals or any role-play events, this isnt about that!

I just feel the crowd-control should be back to avoid a disproportionate repartition.

Application arent -that- scary... just more work for the DMs <_<;; It is all I'm asking.

I just think there should be slots to fill for active players like most other sub-races really.. /3-4 players maximum for active goblins. /3-4 players maximum for active kobolds.

This isnt denying you to play them! This isnt like removing all goblins and kobolds players!

The arguments I saw so far are more about defending 'why you play one' which I dont blame you or want to deny you.

This is simply about having a crowd-control on them back.

I think they should be no app. Because curently they are kill on sight! trust me play a single goblinoid and people will just raid you! the advantage goblins are supposed to have is sheery number! I mean goblins and kobolds suck in stats! what makes them strong is the fact they use numbers!

Expressing my own opinion, and not that of the DM team, I would prefer the goblins and kobolds to go back to application only, but at the same time, greatly lower the requirements we have on those two particular subraces. I think if you can take the time to send an email with just the most -basic- information and a simple goal, that's all you should need to play those two races. We could probably drop the number of accepts down to 1 or 2, as well.

This will weed out the conceptless goblins and kobolds who are only doing it for a fast track for pvp, for the "lols," or for the "immediately create another goblin/kobold after death." It can also keep out the Deekins and voiceset spamming.

There may be an added bonus in making these two subraces require a 'simple' application too, in that those unfamiliar or intimidated by the application process can have two ways of 'breaking the ice', so to speak.

This will weed out the conceptless goblins and kobolds who are only doing it for a fast track for pvp, for the "lols," or for the "immediately create another goblin/kobold after death."

That could be said about any race/class though. It's not inherent to goblins/kobolds, we want to encourage all players to have PCs with some thought put into them, but don't want to make the entire server app only!

also I feel goblins/kobolds would deserve to not be app only if there wasnt a kill on sight law on them. I mean if goblins/kobolds cold waltz right into upper unmolested then ya I feel they should require apps. Im not saying that they should be treated as any citizein if anything the watch should just be. (damn we gotta let these monsters in." Like when a watchman might just be looking for a reason to put monsters in a cell. Like a tiefling pc the watch was so disgusted about him they constantly searched him like 3 times a day by the same watchman!! sanctuary should just let monsters in that dont attack. I mean seriously Any idiot whos been i n drow chatel would know the Drow enslave most these monsters. If you didnt know that monsters because there stronger do more work for drow then you! I mean Sanctuary should be letting ogres in the CIty! I mean I can understand a ogre wouldnt last long because itd likely attack someone! I can understand them putting a law in that says kill all Drow and orogs on sight.

Well that's what you run into it.

However I discussed this with some dm one time, tho which slips my mind was about Subrace vs Human/Elf. We discussed at time apps and how various classes factored in. Also how most people when they play a subrace focus entirely on that subrace and very little on there actual character development. Where as when people make a human or elf they seem to focus on personality, and character development.

Not to say I havn't run into poor made characters of every race. However I run into far more interesting humanoid characters far more often then Kobold/Goblin ones.

I think exile wrote it quite well. I mean not long ago i was in upper with my character when a new kobold character( i hate the word "noob"for some reason)was walking around upper freely just to have blackbeard bash his head in. Sadly the only interaction experiences i have had with goblin characters, save dugbone,was instant pvp from the goblins and i assure you it was unprovoked. In ending i would like to say goblins that live so close to a populate that wants to kill them would find ways to "wheel and deal" with those people to insure survival, dugbone has died before, and has also made and lost fortunes true, but in a whole i have more respect for him cause the times he has done pvp it was done with good roleplay and respect for the other character, also he doesn't "gank" every person that walks into lower. This said i think it is a testemant that good roleplay prevails 90% of the time not the race or situation. The app process should go back in my opinion.

Just to chime in, I've personally had a lot of interaction with non goblin/kobold PCs with my kobold, that didn't involve PvP.

While I agree that goblins or kobolds should have some depth, and goals- Doesn't this apply to every character, and every race; subrace or not? People who just create goblins or kobolds for the lulz don't tend to play them long, as they get rejected by the more serious characters, or killed because they didn't have any protection from Generic Bored Adventurer.

If you make them application-only, then IMO you might dissuade a few potentially well played characters, because they might not think their character good enough to warrant an application- No matter of whether they're incredibly easy to get through or not.

Like other people have mentioned, it isn't that goblins and kobolds don't present RP opportunities. It's mainly that people have a tendancy to resort immediately to FD, or even immediately to PvP; when intimidating, or even just talking to the other character might be more fun. Just a few thoughts.

@ Dr Dragon, your not thinking how it would be ICly, an ogre waltzing around upper sanctuary and your a citizen there your not going to want it in there.

Back to goblin/kobold issue, I do see many min/max goblins and kobolds. I think that if you play one it should be to propel the goblin/kobold plot.

A95 Back to goblin/kobold issue, I do see many min/max goblins and kobolds. I think that if you play one it should be to propel the goblin/kobold plot.

All the charisma in the world isn't going to stop a non-goblin blade. I hate to reiterate what people have already said, but the min/maxing is probably due to the kill on sight policy with goblins. My first attempt at a goblin was going to be a bard, a storyteller and 'intellectual'. Thing is, ain't words that rule goblin tribes, it's muscle. And it's either one, the other, or a middle ground. If the kill on sight policy is repealed, I'm sure you'll see a few orator goblins. And I'm sure that there would be more reactions among meetings with gobbos and non-gobbos than PvP if a life wasn't on the line all the time. But IC/OOC wise, and realistically, they won't last long in Lower's current environment.

Like Canzah and Winston already said, it's hard to get further any goblin plots when you've got the lifespan of a common housefly. (Again, kill on sight policy.)

But whether you set the limit for goblin/kobold apps to 2 or to 4, it still wouldn't solve the supposed issue of detracting subrace-non/subrace RP moments. If anything, the app group of goblin/kobolds are even more likely to stick together and RP only with each other than your standard non-app goblin, because their survival counts on it. Why risk taking the chance to meet non-goblin/kobolds, when it could kill you?

Either way, app or not, I think the numbers will solve themselves with some time. The goblin mania will fade soon enough, and the number of players still doing the goblin thing will probably be in that 2-4 range.

Gruzzle was a Sorceror.

Just to clear some things up:

- 99% of the PvP goblins get in result from them being attacked by other PCs, and not vice versa.

- The proportion of goblin/kobold PCs on to non-goblin/kobold PCs at any one time is certainly far less than what has been suggested in this thread.

- There is lots of PC interaction between goblins/kobolds and other races that extends beyond PvP.

Basically, goblins and kobolds are fun races to play, are mechanically underpowered in relation to other races and, finally and most importantly, are extremely common in the setting. These are the three reasons I don't really want to see them become application-only again.

I refute those numbers, Caddies. It's easily something like 50/50.

Battling a monster of popularity, I see! You guys are getting seduced by the cute little voice, scales and greenskins of these little evil races ;) . No wonder, Deekin comes back in every NwN games :mrgreen: ...

Anyway, I kinda expected it to be controversial (hence the title!) due to facing creatures that approach the style of Moogles from Final fantasy series.

Even though lots of points make sense in keeping them, I still abide by my first suggestion in having a sort-of low-demand crowd-control on them.

- They arent allowed in the most popular areas which cuts interactions with new players or cant help new players integrate well with the world or the settings. - They are **extremely** 'gimmicky', like moogles from Final Fantasy. - Most likely everyone and their mothers have a goblin or a kobold in their player vault just for the giggles. - And I think EfU is deeper than that! Sure, monsters in moderation are fun to see, but I find it more appealing to see players focusing on the main races!

And yes, they are common in general- BUT! Monsters with class levels are not extremely common.

Anyway, as long as players are aware on this issue, I guess it couldnt hurt to stay the ways things are.

Plan B: Kill those mofos. <_<

As Strife said in his post, these are just my opinions and not those of the whole DM staff.

Maybe you've been lucky, Cads, because I've seen too many instances between goblins/kobolds and other PCs that are just weak. These instances almost always seem to end in an FD, which in my opinion should be a rare instance that is a conclusion to some major roleplay between two people/factions. (Whatever happened to robbing someone in subdual?)

There have been several instances in which the PvP is completely legit, but downright poor. There was one instance I saw where a bunch of goblins killed somebody for the lootz. I talked to these people about the event, but it's certainly not a first.

Then of course there's the case where the goblin or kobold gets killed, in which case they come complain to me, and I have to reiterate the rules on how it's free PVP, why it's free PVP, etc. etc. Then there are those people who just hunt down these subraces and do a full kill on them as usual. The roleplay element is there, but it's weak. Frankly, it's tiresome for me to deal with all this when I'm more interested in other aspects of the game world.

I would approve of free goblin and kobolds if it wasn't free PVP on them. When you label something free PVP, people go nuts on each other about it. If Sanctuary was the society it once was and accepted goblins and kobolds as citizens, then people would work towards a roleplay relationship in the city, instead of creating these subraces for pure ganking abilities.

(Whatever happened to robbing someone in subdual?)

I would approve of free goblin and kobolds if it wasn't free PVP on them. When you label something free PVP, people go nuts on each other about it.

I second these observations. I enjoy the PvP aspects of the server, and like the fact you can play a kobold/goblin and be an instant target, but PvP should still MEAN something to all involved, and not just be a "Surprise! You're fugued!" event. I, too, am disappointed that most people seem to favor FD rather than subdual when it comes to robbery.

Yeah, yeah, focusing on the 'main races' is cool an' all that, but after making Generic Elf #12 and 'Bob, Warrior of Light' 50-million times, you just get sick of it and just about choke on the BS. You get tapped out of fresh ideas. Burned out. But then, ah! I don't have to be the generic Hero of Whateva! I don't have to be The Villian of The Dark Keep of Alakazam! I can be a goblin. Just a goblin, and for a change, be complex, unique and intricate in my very simplicity.

Personally i think we should leave Kobolds and goblins the way they are. The main argument against this seems to be that there are to many on at the one time but then again that could be said for any class or race, in my time here I've seen the server be virtually nothing but Paladins, nothing but evil characters, all half orcs but then these phases come and go so i don't see why we get all so worked up about them.