Taking into account a few recent posts on the forums and, in particular, a discussion in IRC not 30 minutes old, it seems not even DMs are entirely clear on where you can PvP with how much DM supervision. As much as forum work is tedious, I honestly think you should make a very clear post that tells us exactly where you can PvP with how much DM supervision (as well as whether you need to simply inform them, or actually have a DM present at all times). This is especially important because I believe I, as it is now, with relative ease, can find three conflicting posts on how PvP can take place.

Second this. The rules seem to vary depending on who is logged in, a set rule or rules that lays it out would be appreciated. The old rules either no longer apply, or seem to be no longer enforced.

and varying between DMs.

Yes, I second this. As it stands if I feel PvP is about to happen I send a message to the DM channel. Sometimes they show up and don't say anything, and sometimes they do - it depends on the DM. Regardless, I simply proceed under the impression that once I sent the message a DM dropped whatever they were doing to come and observe - and if not - well... I made the attempt.

I avoid PvPing in areas that should require DM supervision due to nearby NPC's so it is not normally a problem. That is the only time I really seriously do not PvP unless I know absolutely a DM is watching. If I'm out in the wilderness with someone, no NPC's are around, and I send a message and get no response - I proceed with PvP anyway. It's risky, I know - but I do it in the hope that the DM's trust me to act responsibly as a player and the other player is mature and responsible enough to handle it. That is my only real concern, the other player, and if I think the player might react bad OOCly I might hold off and wait for a DM.

*shrug* It's just how I handle things.

It's always been clearly stated, and there is no confusion amongst DMs.

NPCs in the area? Get a DM.

No NPCs in the area? It's best to have one watching to take care of any misunderstandings, but not necessary.

*note, NPCs meaning blue NPCs. Stone lizards in the wilds do not apply!

**exception being the mean streets of lower

The Lowers are currently considered open to PvP, last I heard. You don't NEED a DM. But it is still obligatory to seek a DM's attention.

Unless I've totally missed something. >.>

You are 100% correct sir!

IMO, even in Lower I would still wait for a DM. Ledskir's seem to have taken control now. The person you may be fighting could be an ally of (or a member of) the Ledskir's and considering that fact I don't think they'd stand by and watch one of their own get pwned.

In fact, I would more or less disregard anything said about not needing a DM to PvP in front of Lower NPC's. Even if they are just a bunch of commoners. They may not help, but they can serve as witnesses to what happened if nothing else. IMO, you should ALWAYS have a DM when you PvP in Sanctuary unless it is out in the non-populated areas, such as the ruins, the sewers, the tunnels, etc. Even then it is good to have a DM on hand incase they escape and run into a NPC populated area.

Really, I've never found any of this complicated at all. Send a message to the DM channel if you are about to PvP. Make sure you have DM confirmation until you begin PvP in an area with non-hostile NPC's.

Really, I've never found any of this complicated at all. Send a message to the DM channel if you are about to PvP. Make sure you have DM confirmation until you begin PvP in an area with non-hostile NPC's.

This is basically it. Lower Sanctuary is an exception, however.

That being said, you should -always- send a /dm message before intigating PVP, no matter where it is. If it's in a non-Lower area with blue NPCs, wait for confirmation. Otherwise proceed.

So, lower is a free for all, even if no DM's are on line?

Yes, it has been that way for many months. Normal PVP rules still apply, of course.

One of the golden rules for PvP where a DM is required is to never assume that one is present, unless you know in no uncertain terms.

Meldread In fact, I would more or less disregard anything said about not needing a DM to PvP in front of Lower NPC's.

That's fine, but don't expect it from other players. Lower is an ultra chaotic place with no central authority and a history where violence is commonplace. You do not need a DM at all.

Yes, that was true, however now that the Ledskir's are the dominant force in Lower, I find it a hard position to justify. If you are a member of their gang and are attacked, there is no reason why the NPC members of the gang would not come to your assistance. Lower has more or less turned into their faction area, and PvP in a faction area is strictly prohibited without DM conformation. It's the equivalent of trying to kill a member of the Watch in the middle of Upper Sanctuary. Other members of the Watch -will- come to their assistance.

Even if you are not a member of their gang, I still doubt they would approve of someone walking around Lower and ganking people for their gold. After all, they are a gang and it's their turf. They are supposed to be the ones ganking people for their gold, not you. :P

So I do not see how it can be justified ICly to attack someone in Lower without a DM around now. It made sense before the gangs showed up, when everything was a free-for-all, but that is no longer the case with Ledskir controlling the area. It just doesn't make much IC sense.

The Ledskir's aren't dominant like you think! You're vastly overestimating things.

Try not to attack PC members of the gang in front of their NPCs, but general PVP in the area is still fine.

Think of it this way: while the Ledskirs are the dominant gang, they are still a gang. I doubt they'd care to get in trouble that they can avoid. Thus if they see brutal guy one beating down on beggar two, I doubt they'd interfere. They're certainly not like the Tigereyes or the Watch.

Yeah, I understand all of that. They aren't there to keep order. They probably won't intervene if a loud mouth insults an angry barbarian who decides to cut off said loud mouth's head. However, even so they are a gang and they do wish to keep potential rivals out of their territory. If you're knocking people in the head for gold, they are going to (or should have something to) say about it. They'd probably say, "Either join us, give us a share, or get out."

Also, by not having a DM around it deprives a PC from the ability to call for assistance. It's not like the Ledskir's are helpless beggars and commoners. The Ledskir's are greedy criminals. If you are receiving a beat down, I'm pretty sure if you offered them gold - or something tangible enough to turn a good profit - they'd jump in and at least keep you from dying. (Or alternatively, decide to rob you themselves after they beat off the other guy - but hey - that's a chance a PC could take!)

Besides, you could be an ally or friend of the Ledskir's who they might want to protect. There is no way for another PC to know that, as it isn't like they get a uniform. And there are lots of them on the street, and if you are fighting in Lower it's highly likely that a member / friend of the gang will run to those NPC's for assistance (or should, at least) - being surrounded by five NPC members of your gang and still getting ganked as they watch is kinda lame, IMO.

I'm just speaking from a players prospective though. I would reframe from doing it simply because I feel it is lame without a DM there to oversee it. I also *hope* that other players feel the same, because it feels like the equivalent of killing one of the PC Crone bouncers right at the feet of Cyrus.

No, its not. At all.

Without giving too much IC information away, its safe to say the Ledskir crew are stretched extremely thin. They've taken horrendous losses before when intervening in street brawls, the most recent incident left them with about six men dead and nothing to show for it. While they are a dominant power, they aren't a central authority.

If you attack a Ledskir PC in front of Ledskir NPCs, you will need a DM obviously.

Ledskir NPCs may occasionally ask for a tithe for bloodletting in their streets. Beyond that, its absolutely fine to PvP without DM supervision and furthermore, entirely justifiable ICly.

Meldread . . .being surrounded by five NPC members of your gang and still getting ganked as they watch is kinda lame, IMO..

*stalk... stalk... stalk... GANK!*

Ledskir #1: 'Hey. Check it out, Lennys getting ganked.' Ledskir #2: 'Ooh, yeah... that guy's wearing plate, too... ooh, and is that greatsword a +4?' Ledskir #1: 'Damn... think we should... I dunno.... do somthing?' Ledskir #2: 'Naw, just leave it. Hey, look at that goblin dancing by Mary! Haha!'

THe Ledskir's aren't as powerful as you think Meldread, even I know that ((Since I was partly responsible for that last incident)), the reason honestly is that Ledskir doesn't have the man power to hold, and govern lower. And even if Ledskir should announce himself as the goverment, they would likely get a rebellion. Truth be told, Ledskir is pathetic, they are all talk and cash, but they lack any man power but that of mercenary, and they can be bought off. (Hopefully)

That's not really the topic, Tom The Younger.

Wait, theres two of 'em?