Skeleton Knuckles are spell reagents. Currently when used, they summon ghosts. Personally I'm all in favor of the Skeleton Knuckle serving as a reagent to summon slightly more useful undead: Skeletons. Starting at a certain caster level (L3 spells?) the reagent could start summonings Skeletons. Just ordinary ones wielding a battleaxe with their 14-HP. At L7 it could be improved to the Skeleton Warrior, 35hp / +6 AB / 20 SR (Which has to be tuned down dramatically. 11 SR seems reasonable, or just remove it entirely) and their Greatsword +1 AB could be replaced for an ordinary great sword. (+5 AB) At L9 it would summon a Skeleton Chieftain which has 12/7 AB and a +2 sword, which could be replaced for an ordinary sword taking it down to 10/5 AB, SR tuned down.

These summons would be slightly better than the Undead summons summoned now, but at the same time wouldn't be any stronger than any other conjuration school, rather close to equal.

As well, it's to be remembered that they can't be summoned around the clock, as it's not allowed by Sanctuary's law and not a lot of people have a soft spot for Undead.

-- Because this is animating the dead, rather than conjuring up a spirit, I'm not sure if it would work IC. If not, the suggestion would apply for the Animate Dead spell, where the Knucklebones would serve as a reagent which would animate a humanoid corpse as a Skeleton and not a zombie.

This is flame-food. People. Flame!

I'll agree that something needs to be done. The ghost summons are beyond terrible. I'm particularly annoyed when level 1, 2 and 3 ghosts stand there for the (brief) duration of their summoning casting the level 1 scare spell repeatedly on a target with over 5 HD, and thus immune anyway - not that the ability to summon ghosts doesn't have its RP value!

Terible believe me it makes a fool out of all my necromancers. I felt sad being a necromancer I used Rat extract and other regeants because my ghosts sucked!

Dr Dragon Terible believe me it makes a fool out of all my necromancers. I felt sad being a necromancer I used Rat extract and other regeants because my ghosts sucked!

Through one of my current characters I truly and personally feel the frustration expressed in this thread about just how apparently weak undead summons are. This character is supposed to be quite skilled at animating / summoning undead, yet even his best minions are probably most suitable for a fight against sewer rats. They hardly would inspire justified fear (as they should!).

There are very important differentiations between animating spells (including specific undead summoning spells and similar spell like abilities) and regular summons acquired via regent that makes an especially good case for improvement of the former. The stigma surrounding the use and reanimation of a corpse and being a “known practitioner“ of such acts has very steep in game costs. Those costs are simply unmatched by the current inability of the necromancer to effectively focus on the most interesting part of his craft. The planned use of special regents for the spell (ie. corpses), while appropriately “realistic”, is an additional limitation and multifaceted cost that should have a matching benefit. (I hope that necromancy spell focus feats and / or the spell school specialization choice and / or domains count for something in the process; otherwise our “unique craft“ could be duplicated with equal effectiveness by any mage or cleric.)

That being said, I know that the DM team has been working on improving the animate dead spell (thank you). This thread does not bring up a new issue, but one that has likely been and is being carefully considered and implemented when the builders have time. (Thanks on behalf of all past and present necromancers to anyone that has given or that does in the future give up their limited time to address this issue.)

Instead of simply asking for more, as I admittedly have been prone to do in the past, perhaps we, the players of necromancer characters, should take a different tack here. Specifically, try to do things in game that help justify gaining more IC knowledge regarding the improvement of your summons or animations that should logically bear practical results. Let's try to do things as a group / type of PC to inspire DMs / builders to give us some more precious time and attention.

My suggestions are:

1) Find other necromancers and share knowledge in game (while this may seem daunting as necromancy is a spell school that shares its unique antisocial taboo with no other, making it difficult to identify like minded individuals, it is not impossible (there are FOIG locations where you might find others; take notice of other people you see summoning undead and inquire; talk to PCs and NPCs that you know are not opposed to your craft and use their network to meet other necromancers);

2) There are at least a couple of FOIG items that might yield more knowledge of some kind; find them, examine them, politely ask DMs if there is anything you can discern from them;

3) Do in game research on the various instances of undead found in game,

4) Remember, there are a multitude of possibilities for use of the animate dead spell with the assistance of a DM. Use your imagination.

5) Did I say find others and share what you learn yet?

6) Find others and share what you learn. We are not the first or the only players struggling with this issue. No one can find out everything there is to know alone. Necromancers / undead worshipping PCs have so much potential for strength through solidarity (and fun!); actively help make it happen.

Necromancer’s of the world unite!

S

That last post was by me, FYI.

Here are some quick tips to making the most out of your undead summons while we patiently anticipate something new to come out.

1) Stone bones - When used in combination with mage armor, stone bones can significantly increase your summons' ability to deflect blows. If you are a cleric, this can be very cost effective when used as a first level domain spell as granted by the Undead domain. (You'll need the override.)

2) Negative Energy Ray - Negative energy ray can be used to significantly heal your hellion from a safe distance. It is also found in many quest-dropped-wands and capable of being purchased from PC wand makers relatively cheaply.

3) Negative Energy Burst - If your beastie is surrounded you can cast this spell on it to not only heal it, and give it a strength boost, but also damage every surrounding hostile critter (except other undead).

4) Immunities - Remember that undead have an immunity set that is nearly unmatched by other summoned critter types. Use it. Fight other undead with undead. Even if they get clobbered in the first few rounds or do next to nothing offensively, using undead summons to open a battle against undead that spam negative energy ray or have powerful level or strength drain attacks can be very useful.

These are just tips, and even if you take advantage of them summons are weak (and animations non-existent). To reiterate, I absolutely agree that an improvement to the animate dead spell, and like abilities, will be a welcomed, highly anticipated, widely appreciated, and very appropriate change for the EfU setting.

Thanks again to anyone who takes the time to work on it.

S

Ya necromancers are supposed to be feared! Especially the fact its possible for them to discover Lichdom! (Hey I never met a pc Lich) As far as unique items There is special necromantic items do some research and looking around! But agreed I think Necromancers being more powerful will make them more feared! Hell once anyone discovers the animate dead spell its possible for them to make there own undead Army. Well not most who have animate dead but Wizards Ya! Most clerics dont want to make a undead army unless of course there god is very encouraging of necromancy! Most evil preists actually work with Wizards when forging a undead Army!

I also believe necromancers deserve a bone because when we take the spell chool we loose acsess to divination spells! Making useful spells like Identify see invis clardivoyance etc. I feel us necromancers have gotten little that make us the most feared folk of Toril. The only (no offense dms,) Powerful necromancer I see are Npcs that are Liches or put some curse on there special necromancers tomb. The only pc necromancer I saw was just a minor wanted criminal named *spoiler* He wasnt really a huge OH MY GOD A NECROMANCER SEAL THE GATES PREPARE THE DEFENCE WE HAVE A HUGE THREAT PREPARE THE PREISTS GET THE TORCHES GODS WHERE ARE THE KELMOVARANS! I have an actual idea for necromancers to make us the badasses we truly are.

1 When we slay a pc there will be a pc corpse. If we cast animate dead on it A token will go to our inventory titled. (Necromantic Summon) 1/day use. When used it will summon the pc (thats now a npc.) Thats the lvl of the pc of the Corpse! You also can give it equipment and stuff.

2 you can only have one out at a time!

3 any wizard/cleric corpses used will rise simply as undead with only negative energy spells prepared.

4 If the undead dies it will sit there as a corpse that cant be animated but can be raised or ressurected! (that way it presents an oprutunity of a pc to be saved while in the necromancers service!,)

5 this particular special version of storing undead counters is only for wizards.

6 Rp wise we summon them from the negative energy plane!

7 Why clerics dont get this? Because no offense but clerics are already as powerful as they can be! T

The Necromancy school is arguably the most powerful one, Dr Dragon.

Deep Lizard corpse. :(

Skrillix Deep Lizard corpse. :(

I heard there was a really neat animation done with one of those recently. Other than that one instance, players I know have met with no success.

The more powerful the reagent, it makes sense to use the more powerful summoning spells.