Normally I have the tact of a rabid bull in a curio shop, but I'm going to try to express something here that I hope is productive and viewed as an attempt to maximize player and DM enjoyment.

Having not ever been a DM, I can only imagine how challenging it is at times. I've tried to take that into consideration with the DM staff when I am disappointed in some way, because they are clearly doing a great job overall, and are much appreciated. But I sense a growing amount of frustration in a segment of the player base. Frustration which could be dissipated fairly easily with a conscious effort by the DM staff. Quite a few vet players that I consider very good are leaving, and I'm guessing it is related to the topic I'm trying to discuss here.

Let me preface this by saying this is just my opinion and based on my limited POV as a player for these 13 months I've been playing EfU. You may disagree with some or part of what I say, and I hope this doesn't offend the DMs or some vet players.

To provide some perspective, I've played Rollo Stoneshield the Stoutheart Thane, Geb Halleck of House Archibald, Erik Plainswalker and Andrei of the Tribe of the Blade. FWIW, here goes....

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Good play and player actions that the DM staff want to see are rewarded mightily in several ways. Phat loot, DM XP, plot opportunities and DM attention in general. There appears to be a core group of very good players that receive the majority of the attention, and I understand that. Howland has said many times that he is doing this for free, and he's going to do things with/for people that make it fun for him and the other DMs. Can't argue with that! :D

My suggestion revolves around the tweeners that have the potential to be very good or are sometimes very good but just not very consistent. I consider myself in this group of players, and I may be better or worse than that, but it doesn't matter really. IMO, some thoughtful DM feedback can make a world of difference in the growth and gaming experience of these players and the server as a whole.

Currently, DM XP is a primary vehichle used to positive reinforcement for PC play. Even a 50 XP boost shows the player that they efforts are being noticed and are appreciated. It's the equivalent to a pat on the back - and though a minor gesture, very significant to the player that isn't finding the longbow, +1 attack vs. humanoids, mighty +2 and casts invis 1/day. BUT. It's more the gesture that is appreciated than the XP. Even the big DM XP rewards I've gotten once in a while are not nearly important as the satisfaction of knowing I'm doing something that the DM staff likes to see and is trying to reinforce.

A couple of examples and I'll wrap it up. Helkesst once subtly told me via Tell that my party's slaughter of the NPCs in a DM quest had effectively closed a developing DM plot he had created. Maybe DM's aren't supposed to do that (he was still a DM newb then) but it was very profound to me as a player and made me realize that hack/slash and not RPing a situation had consequences.

Another time my LG cleric stopped to desecrate the evil altar at the end of a scripted quest, and the DM watching allowed me to RP it in a more dramatic fashion. Although the party was eager to go back to town and divvy the loot, it was a very IC act and added some depth to the adventure. Then (Beggar or Sherry?) sent me a Tell that was what they considered good RP of a cleric, and wanted to see more examples of such acts. I really appreciated that type of comment. This simple effort by that DM made a fun experience even more rewarding, and personally satisfying to see that my effort was noticed.

DM XP is great, custom loot is awesome, but a couple DM tells here and there can make a big difference. A "nice job" or "do this more, it's good stuff" is greatly appreciated by me, and probably all players. It may break immersion, but IMO the opportunity to help player development and foster personal communication between the DM and that player is worth it.

This is certainly not a complaint, but instead something I've felt as a "tweener" quality player and perhaps many other players might agree. Don't mean to come off as presumptious or ungrateful, just trying to make a great thing greater for some who may feel like I do.

And as an aside, a supportive comment from you core vets that drive the server and receive lots of DM attention will also have a very positive effect on other players. Both already decent RPers or pure noobs. A " XD ", " lol ", or saying that something was awesome lets one know that other players are enjoying your character as well. I will also say I have seen MANY of the very good players do this, and it makes the server a great experience when you do.

Thanks, and hope this is taken in the spirit in which it is intended! :)

One thing I'd point out, there is often a feeling that a group of players are the 'core vets' who the DMs shower with attention.

Its not quite accurate. I'm fairly certain I can be lumped in with the 'core vets' but its not as if DMs show any favortism. If anything, they expect far more and have far less tolerance for mistakes from these 'core players'.

I'm only pointing this out because on other servers, I've seen a sentiment develop that there are DM favorites who get all the attention while what you call the "tweaners" are ignored or forgotten.

I believe the DMs here make a very special point of giving "tweaners" just as much attention and help as anyone else. The real core of it is, if you try to make the DMs have fun-they return the favor and anyone can do that.

Some of us DM's make a point to make as many of our events open to anyone that is interested, as well. :P Plots, quests, whatever. I'm not sure if your perception of what is actually going on is entirely accurate, though I can see what you are getting at.

The biggest points have really been made though, by you, and Oro. We're just looking to have fun too when we log into the client. We can't be everywhere at once, but we certainly do try to spread the love around. I'd ignore perceptions of who you think is getting more attention, and would instead just try to focus on developing relationships with other PC's, and working on your player plots if no DM's are available at a given time.

Other than that, try not to stress out if you don't get in touch with a DM right away. It's not a personal issue, just one of us getting flooded with requests for our attention when we are on the client, hanging around IRC, or dealing with forum posts. Hopefully this helps a little.

Who are these EfU veterans that are supposedly getting all the attention?

I tend to think people exaggerate the amount of praise/XP/loot that is lavished upon other groups.

There is a very real and very conscious effort on the part of the DM team to encourage new players/identify promising players and help them as best as we can.

As for everyone else, there's the How to Rock my Socks post which explains what criterion I really like to see from players (in part, at least). But bottom line is, do amazing stuff with your character, rock out on the server, help the DM team have fun and we'll try to help you have fun. But realistically with non-professional DMs who just log on when they feel like it, and a playerbase of many hundreds of people, there's a limit to how much of us there is to go around.

But yes, our plots and events are open to everyone.

Probably the best way to get positive attention is just to log on a lot, I suppose.

meh. I suck at getting my point across. But good informative responses.

Oro, in doing some NWN research about a diety or something, I saw that you were a founding DM on CoA? True? As such, you have a tremendous advantage in many ways, because you see both sides of playing a character. Your characters are deep and well-made, your RP very good, and your ability to plan, initiate and implement HUGE server wide plots is amazing. You are at the apex of player evolution, and are the exception and not the norm.

Players like you that have this talent/ability are naturally going to receive the most DM attention. I don't begrudge that fact, and completely understand why. Am I jealous? Some, but also very respectful of what you do. I'm sure your new character will do all the right things to become a Councilor and you'll shrewdly manage to pull off most of your plans and goals.

But that's not why I rang. As you mentioned Oro, on other servers - you've seen people develop the perception that there is a core group of very good vets that the DMs favor. I understand why this happens, and also recognize that this is not accurate from the DM's POV.

Yet if the perception is there, then my suggestion is that it won't take much to banish it if the DMs wish to do so. Due to the fact that many good players have left that feel this way, and that this was a primary reason why, I was hoping to help the other players see that it isn't necessarily true.

I have personal knowledge of at least three and I'm sure there are more that feel there are some core players get most of the DM love.

If the DMs want to prevent this from happening, this was my suggestion at how to do so. If they want to say, "Hey, we're fair and everyone has the same opportunity, so buck up.", that's their prerogative. But good players will continue to leave, players that we like and will miss. If the huge player pool makes this an unfortunate fact of online RP gaming and not a big deal, then fine. I understand that rationale. It's the DM staff's time and their right to not fret over every person that feels unsatisfied with EfU. Can't please everyone.

Personally, I think people that feel left out need to be patient, plan better, be persistent and they'll get all the DM attention they deserve. This includes me. The responsibility for any dissatisfaction I have rests squarely on my shoulders first. The DMs ALWAYS do a great job here listening to gripes/beefs and addressing them patiently, or I wouldn't throw this out here.

Finally, I just wanted to say again that the main point of this thread was the following: I think a DM tell reinforcing good play or something that they are impressed with helps a lot. This will improve the play and satisfaction of the player base as a whole, though I understand that it can't be everyone all the time due to DM time limitiations.

Thanks for all the efforts you are already making!

:D

I have been on this server for only a 4 months or so(with EFU being the first NWN server ive even been on + the only one i enjoy) intotal but my time here has been amazing. Only once have i ever got an Xp reward for Rp and that was with the hilarious dwarf tossing event. But i must say those 50 shiny xp's really cheered me up and i am proud to say that i had earned them. It really spurred me on to try and do better.

Even if im not being showered with gifts and xp i still think the DMs are doing a wonderful job here and i dont really think they are having faviourates amongst the PC player base( and even if they do they dont show it :D )

I do however admit that i did feel a little left out when i first joined the NWN game online and EFU because i thought there would be a lil more DM interaction with the players (this was when i first started out mind you being a complete noob) but now i realise that would break the immersion of the world.

I do agree with Gwydion that a few more tells perhaps would be nice just to say 'keep it up' etc but the DM's are worked off their feet (or hands?) after all so it would be a totally fair point to disagree with that surgestion.

It is a shame that some Vets are leaving the game but they will be replaced by others who will keep up the stella role play that makes this server so great...

That is my to shiny golden pound coins

Dear Gwydion,

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at, so I'll try to cover what comes to mind.

If you're wondering about doing IG stuff, using /dm messages that briefly explain what you're trying to do is pretty crucial. Sometimes nobody will be on, and sometimes we'll be busy elsewhere, but I can guarantee that we don't discriminate between PC who want to talk to an NPC, try something requiring a DM, etc.

If you're talking about going on DM quests, I don't enjoy running them myself, and can't really comment on them.

If you're talking about forum posts from DMs...well, those are generally the last thing on everyone's to-do list, and I'll admit that most of us don't really enjoy wading through the forums, and do prefer NPC interactions to be done in-game.

If you're wondering about getting RP XP, it's usually a crap-shoot as to whether a DM happens to be around or not, but I think we're pretty liberal with it. I can state for a fact that the RP XP I've given you over time is in-line with what everyone else gets, so I don't think that's the discrepancy you're talking about.

However, it's true that we're more likely to be watching dynamic characters that are plotting, initiating conflict with others, or engaging others with their RP. We're much more likely to show up at a secret meeting in the Crone, or a PC's speech in Town Hall, than we are to show up and just watch people hanging around the streets of upper (although it does happen!).

So, really, we do try to treat everyone equally, however the player that is proactive in their own right is probably going to get more attention simply due to being more visible, whether it's using /dm messages or initiating player events (anything from an argument, speech, plotting, fight, etc). If you're going about your business hoping for someone to randomly be watching...then you will certainly be receiving less feedback than others.

Gwydion, I did not found CoA: I just DM'ed there for a number of years.

I left because some of the DMs (who are no longer there mind you) felt that it was better to harbor grudges and outright hate for players than to just confront them and talk it out; or even to just try to accept their apologies at face value.

I came here because many of the DMs were former CoA players who likewise felt that a better spirit of openness and communication in the search of maximum fun could be created on EfU.

I've never seen the favortism you think is happening. While some DMs to lavish attention on me, its because I know we just all have fun whenever we interact as players or as DM/player. I try to rock socks off, and they return the favor-but anyone can get the same attention. Its not because I make deep characters, or plot to conquer Sanctuary--but because I just try to have fun with them.

On the other hand, you don't see times when I am not having fun with the DMs. When I disagree with them, or they disagree with me. When we argue and have to resolve disagreements or just agree to avoid each other. All the DMs here are mature, and all of them want to have fun. I do not get along with all of them however, nor do they all get along with me.

There's a key there. Some DMs I interact with a lot, and others I don't interact with at all. For most players, its just a matter of figuring out when your play time is: getting ahold of a DM and rocking his socks off. Once you do that, they will give you the same attention anyone else gets.

However, you're not dealing with a small group of DMs who have favorites, but rather a large group of individuals each with their own tastes and preferences looking to have a good time with people who enjoy and suit their styles. So get to know them a little, and just play the game and try to provide fun for yourself and anyone you contact.

That is how the DMs will notice you. The number of DMs means lots of them may have time to interact with you, and will if you're just concentrating on the game and having fun.

Now, when I use to log into CoA as a DM, I'd give three compliments to players I didn't normally interact with every day. Just three compliments, because as you suggested-it didn't seem like much and would probably give a big pay out in the end.

There was still a sense of "favortism" there though. I'm not sure it really made much difference, but I did try it. The problem is, with hundreds of players-you can't get to every single one of them. Not without dozens of DMs, so I think that's really were the sense of isolation you are mentioning comes from.

Good post Gwydion.

I must say I dont know if the dm´s favours any of the players here, but I will Agree with you that a small tell saying "well done" or "that sucked!" can really chear you up, or improve your RP. I personaly wuldnt mind players or dm´s telling me what they like and dislike about my RP.

I can't really comment on the suggestion since I have had little DM interaction in my 8 months on the server. It can be frustrating at times, especially when you think that you are doing something that they'd find interesting. That being said, I understand why I don't get the attention: I don't play nearly enough, and when I do play its at times that don't overlap with many DMs. (Although this they have been around a bit more in the last month.)

I think that these quotes sum up what I can surmise from my experience:

Howland Probably the best way to get positive attention is just to log on a lot, I suppose

Oroborous

For most players, its just a matter of figuring out when your play time is: getting ahold of a DM and rocking his socks off.

The second one is easier said than done, especially for the occaisional player. I've come to accept that I just can't commit the time (or the right times) to EFU to get the DM attention I want. Its still frustrating at times, but for now I just try to do as much as possible to get involved with interesting stuff that other players are doing. Many PCs come up with awesome stuff on their own, and some have better ties to DMs. That means that sometimes you can get DM attention by association. As a concluding remark, these comments aren't directed at Gwydion, but just my general feelings and advice for all players.

Oro,

You're missing my point entirely. I can tell you are extremely intelligent, but you and others are likely perceiving my post as an attempt to eloquently phrase my own whining.

It's not.

While I do have my own frustrations at times, I think we all do. I think the DMs have already thoroughly explained that they consciously avoid favoritism, here and in other posts. I believe them, and am trying to avoid this seeming like complaining or making them feel defensive.

I thank you for sharing your personal experiences because they are very valuable in these types of discussions. It's not my business, yet you shared because you are honest and I appreciate it.

I'll make my take on this succinct. And if the DM's want to concur, take it with a grain of salt, or vehemently object - I welcome all.

1. Some players (and some are very good ones) think that there are players that get most of the attention - and don't understand all the ways the DMs try to avoid playing favorites and being fair to everyone.

2. These players want to learn what they need to do to improve their play or plot efforts to warrant this attention.

3. A short comment every now and then goes a long way to let a player know they like the RP or what a player is doing.

Metro, I think all those things you listed are helpful to state clearly. I'm not an XP, loot or DM attention whore. This isn't about me either. I truly have seen an undercurrent of frustration in the playerbase that can easily happen in this situation despite the DM staff's best efforts. Oro corroborates this happens quite often. And we're losing good players. I can name four very good ones just off the top of my head, and I'm sure you guys have heard from many more that are frustrated but are poorly communicating why they are frustrated, and may end up quitting as well.

For those of us that don't rap on IRC with you guys, the DM staff is a mysterious group that is unpredictable and difficult to get a hold of IG sometimes. We know you are unpaid and spread thin, and do appreciate your efforts. But it's unavoidable when you are trying to interact with an NPC and after numerous DM tells get nothing or "Sorry, really busy now". When it happens often, the implication is that you have more important stuff to do, right or wrong.

A simple, "I'll let you know when I'm free tonight" or "PM me and we'll set up a time to do this" might work. Maybe you already do this with other players. I always feel like I'm being a pain in the ass and my stuff is too trite to bother when I think you guys are doing "real stuff".

Maybe these incorrect perceptions are unavoidable. But the original post was to try to avoid this misunderstanding in a constructive way. No one is truly wrong here, and communication is the key.

Metro once sent a quick Tell that he liked my Andrei character (for some reason that escapes me now) and it made my day. I've got three kids that are 100 times more important than my EfU character's latest exploits, but this is my recreational outlet and I really enjoy it. There are probably a lot of others like me, and if we can make it even more fun for more of us, I don't mind being a pain in the ass and talking about this misconception in the open.

Hope you guys don't either.

Gwydion, you have skill at making your point. Im not sure why there's confusion about what you write and misunderstanding to what you mean.

You have pointed out several times that whether or not this "core player" situation is realistic or not the fact remains that some players, good ones in your opinion, have left feeling this way.

Its a common perception i think. I tried to express similar feelings as you did once before and was involved in a similar, though less civilized conversaton with the DM staff.

Truth be told, i think its not really "old vets" or "core players", but more realistically characters who proverbially "rock the socks off" said DMs. This can happen for anyone, just takes some practice.

That being said, i think your point is great. Little pats on the back and quick conversations between DM and player can go a long way to dispelling this. It could mean the difference for a player to go from GOOD to GREAT.

This all coming from a guy who had one good character, and i suppose i wasnt always consistent anyway. SO im either a 'tweener' or worse! :roll:

It's just difficult to narrow down what specifically you're speaking about, is all! If it's being told that a DM is busy when you try to get one, then unfortunately that is often the case, but trying again later is a viable option.

And as for seeming to be mysterious entities to many players...I'm not sure what else we can do to be accessible, we really do everything we can in that regard, and at a point it's up to the player to take us up on it. It takes like five minutes to install mIRC and create a forum account.

I'm still not entirely certain what, specifically, you're suggesting though! So it's difficult to address.

For what it counts, here's my thought on this post.

I've been hardcore gaming for the last few months. I've been logging sometimes 16h a day, so i believe i've got a good overview of DM playing times and ways.

I feel interaction with DMs depends on those connected:

- some like the action part and just hang in quest areas to spice them up. Those i usually get no interaction from, except with mr bad guy at the end of the quest. - others prefer the RP side and i did get DM tells saying both "this is good" :D or "please don't do this" :oops: .

These are more likely to notice rp situations of players that don't "rock the server", even if they're giving good time to others.

As for "rocking the server", remember all players and DMs enjoy the game differently, and probably have different thoughts on what it means. I got noticed once or twice for being a pain in the ... neck, i suppose others get noticed for founding some secret society, others for playing a drunk in the street, whatever.... So just do your thing and have fun with the folks available.

Last, i do think it's strange if folks leave the server "because of" DMing. It's the players, mainly, who create the fun. (not to say DMs don't matter, but they aren't always around). It's likely their are other reasons. :cry:

That was just my two coins!

Gwydion,

It's funny reading this thread, because just yesterday, I was reading a book about leadership (in anything in life), and it gave a few tips about living better and leadership. One of them was exactly the same thing you are saying: Always have something good to say to someone.

People feel good when you give them some positive attention, it encourages them to do better, making a good way to point which direction they need to take to do their job/play/whatever, unlike negative feedback, which in excess can discourage them on whatever they are doing. In other words, "You're doing THIS well" sounds much better than "You're doing this wrong.". I think you made a good point there.

I have some experience as a DM from another server as well, and I have to say it's hard to notice every single character on a server, especially when people tend to not stick with a character very long.

But really, people shouldn't get frustrated for things like that. So what they didn't get as much attention as the other fellow player? You can still interact with a whole player base, and get your own plots done!

I'm certain that if people do that, making interesting characters and contributing with a story to the server, they will get more attention from DMs. It's just a matter of learning how to sock their rocks... :)

Narrowing further -

I've spoken to Howland about angry players before, and have a small idea of some of the very negative interactions he and the DMs have had with players in the past. It's very depressing to a DM to be unfairly accused of something when they work their asses off, for no pay, to provide a vehicle of enjoyment for others.

I'm NOT accusing them of favoritism, intentionally or even unintentionally. It's the perception of favoritism that is the root cause of lots of OOC strife. I'm hoping that this kind of dialogue helps players to limit their frustrations, and the scathing, personal attacks some launch on the DMs as a result.

I'm also presuming that Howland and the DM staff want to see as many players have fun, provide great RP, and interact with the setting and help to influence things. Helping dissatisfied players to understand the big picture, and avoiding minor problems from turning into blowups and bannings would seem to be preferable.

Some feedback about things helps immensely. The Stouthearts repeatedly tried to pursue crafting-related plots, and Howland patiently and repeatedly explained that the DMs were not interested in that direction. That's helpful.

Sending a player a Tell like, "Your character is well done, look for a plot opportunity involving them in the next few days" would ramp up the excitement and make their day. Or, "Keep up the good RP, the DMs are noticing it."

Maybe to a DM it seems like mollycoddling needy people with fragile psyches. But compared to the monstrous amount of time you devote for a positive experience, 25 seconds to make this kind of a Tell sure would reinforce good play and help to shape the server the way the DMs would like it to be.

For Metro, :D Some players get the wrong impression about the server fairly easily, and get pissy because they perceive something that is not accurate. Some feedback, generally positive, but even some negative sprinkled in every once in a while would make a world of difference to most of us who aren't on IRC much. This might nip a a lot of the negative OOC interaction that bums the DMs out and leads to good players quitting.

And....other players missing them and the good times they've added to the server.

Make sense? :?

Gwydion, we already do all the things you have suggested we do. :wink:

Oh.

Well then, damn! I obviously have the instincts to be a great DM!

The only thing I'm lacking is a thorough knowledge of NWN mechanics, any experience with the toolset, a fundmental understanding of scripting, the ability to create intriguing and gripping mega plots, and lots of time to dedicate to strangers you've never met RL.

So based on those slight shortcomings, I'll have to politely decline Howland's imminent offer to join the DM staff. :lol:

I get what you're saying Gwydion, and here is how I see things. I enjoy EfU for the community, which includes both DM's and players. I play EfU for my enjoyment, but I also play for the enjoyment of others.

In a way, I view role-playing as improvisational acting. I have a character role with no script, the same everyone else. We have to find a way to make it all fit together and create a compelling story - half the time it looks like chaos as a result, but that's not the real point - the point is that we have fun doing it. The critical word in that sentence is "we" - I want others to enjoy my characters as much as I do.

Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not, but I view the community on EfU as my critics. They can either give me rave reviews or constructive criticism on how to improve. Overwhelmingly, from the other players on the server I get very good feedback, but to me a DM's feedback carries the weight of five other players.

They aren't playing as large a part in the scenes as I am and most of the time, they are only observing. So when I know a DM is watching me and is enjoying watching me - that means a lot to me as a player. For example, I remember the time that Delorin Drake was interacting with the Tribe of the Blade, and Metro_Pack sent me a tell calling Drake "a pimp" for what he was doing. It meant a lot to me that a DM took notice, because really - I have no idea when a DM is watching.

Another example, of when a DM really brightened my time on EfU was when a DM recently told me that DMing for me and someone else was a great experience. I don't feel that I was at my best in those interactions, but nevertheless I was glad to know that a DM enjoyed them.

I remember things like that and it makes me want to play harder and improve - to be the absolute best that I can become for the community. So yes, I agree that positive feedback is a wonderful way to encourage people, especially from DM's who are in an authoritative position on the server.

Personally, when I RP with other players for a length of time and have enjoyed myself I always make the effort to send the other player a tell and let them know that I enjoyed it. I know from experience that it really makes me enjoy my character that much more when others are enjoying it as well.

Just my two cents.

I actually wrote a paper for my Rhetoric class about EfU. How we are all actors on a computer stage. This server is basically an epic tale of a wretched little city full of ex-slaves and other unfortunates. I've found that if you think of EfU in this way, anything (almost) that happens or doesn't happen can easily be logged away in your mind as just another interesting plot turn. I've had chars involved in server-changing plots, and I've had chars that I absolutely loved that never got anywhere near their (my) goals. Remember: The value is in the journey, not the destination.

Just keep in mind that we are all trying to play our little part in this grand and wondrous tale, and most of your frustrations will quickly fall to the wayside.

Shakespeare's got nothing on us! :lol:

I keep writing things and then rephrasing myself, because sometimes I feel like a broken record on these forums

There are not two classes of player in EfU. I don't know the psychological term, but i've felt it myself playing NwN. Feeling excluded, outside the inner circle - it's only alongside your peers that you can really start to put anything into context. Perhaps it's hard to believe sometimes, because any viewpoint can be skewed.

Look. It's a simple formula. You enjoy yourself, who cares. You don't, then try to improve it. Don't start believing that there's a hidden agenda to preclude you from having a good time because that sort of negativity is cancerous to the very soul.

And the more you enjoy playing, the more others will latch on to that. The DM's are no different. I've said it before and i'll say it again: You think of something fun to do and send a DM tell asking to do it, I don't care if you're Jonny Veteran or Bob Newbie, they're gonna run with it. Nobody does this though, except perhaps for those guys that -seem- to be getting all the attention.

HOWEVER. If you send constant DM tells asking for NPC's to be possessed, without any real purpose to it besides to ask them how the weather is, pretty soon the DM's will just f**k off elsewhere. We need to be entertained / entertain too.

- Noooke