Just wondering: shouldn't undeads see invisible creatures? Most have no eyes, so it's more of a "sense life" ability.

Same thing in darkness, etc.

Mages will hate me!

Liches should do, as should Vampires. (Both sense in a much more unnatural way) (ie, unnerfed Truesight)

Not convinced on zombies, etc.

A good way I have run it before (elsewhere) is to have Vampires have a massive (I mean huge here, like full +50 to skill) on Listen skill, to represent hearing the heartbeat but not necesarily 'seeing' thier foes.

The other is to grant Liches and Baelnorns truesight (The untouched one, not nerfed). Demons also benefitting, because bugger all can hide thier souls from demonsight! :)

Thats my veiws.. anyhows.

Undead*

And no, I don't think it's the case that undead have the ability to see you in that manner. Undead are still confined to the physical limitations of the creature they once were. For example, why must an assortment of skeletal bones arrange themselves into the structure of the creature it once was? Would it not be more effective from a Necromancer's point of view to simply make the bones attack you all independently?

but a Lich isnt confined to the limitations of what it once was, nor is the Vampire. Both become something far far different. A lich can see evrything in even the darkest of places, seeing the evry souls of its enemies.

Vampires can sense people even without seeing them

as for the rest of the undead, I agree.

You just made an enemy :twisted:

But I, with utmost consternation, find myself agreeing to such a portent.

lol, I cant believe that an enemy can be made of a virtual opinion the itnernet, between two civilised people whom never have met, and never will, barring ingame as virtual avatar's.

:)

another words, *Ducks*

Alright so maybe they can. I dont think the module is rampant with vampires and liches though.

Well according to the P&P monster manual Lich's and vampires dont have any special forms of sight they do however get a +8 bonus to all listen and spot checks

again according to the monster manual these creatures see normaly.

Well if my assumption that zombies detect bpeople by their smell is correct,I don't see how an invisbility spell would help...with your smell.

nope they see people like everybody else if they could detect by smell they would have the scent ability which they dont.

But aren't there a lot of creeps that would be just as good at sniffing out hiding PCs, like worgs and what not.. Where is the roof on that? I do roll *Smell checks* for fun but I guess you could just think of it as part of the listen score or something.

you could 'Search' for the smell :D

Only creatures that have the scent ability can smell out other creatures and even then it only gives bonuses to track.

You all worry about such silly things!

Brains...

I'm not totally sure about the D&D take on vampires, but my mom is a huge fan of those kinds of stories and three things that have never been taken into account are:

1.) Vampires can move at near blinding speed when compared to mortals.

2.) Vampires can, in fact, hear a persons heartbeat...mainly because their own doesn't beat and they have ridiculously sharp hearing.

3.) Vampires, if you look into their eyes, can seduce people into doing their bidding, up to and including allowing themsevles to be bitten.

Conversely,

Vampires should be reduced to next to 0 HP when exposed to spells or divine abilities that involve any kind of sunlight. Similar to how the Drown or Harm spells work.

Additionally, holy water vials should do more than just simply a few hit points. Also you should be able to pour Holy Water over your blade to make it a fearsome anti-vampire weapon.

In EfU I've run into a few vampires and while they do have a form of damage resistance, I'd like to think that even the weakest of vampires would pose a massive threat to a moderately prepared party (which is usually the case for most 'exploration' groups)

Vampires are different from setting to setting, you can't exactly say that things haven't been taken into account.

Unless, of course, Vampires are real.