As I wish to follow the rules and not post in someone else's "Ask a DM" post, I wanted to bring this topic here to give my support to the DMs ruling on subdual mode.

I would much prefer to be "killed" in subdual mode first, and get some RP out of it, have a chance to beg for my life, etc. than be full deathed and sent to the fugue immediately.

This is also a good idea as it will hopefully reduce the number of FD that occur for situations where FD may not be needed. But if people keep getting up from subdual, then other characters will start to skip subdual as an option and just start FD people. This leads to a high character turn over on the server, which, I think, hurts the RP of the server as everyone has to continue making new characters and stories fall apart.

For me, FD should be saved for the culmination of a plot, or for a major battle between long time foes, not for mugging someone, or having a fight over a decision made in the party.

Not only do I believe that staying down in subdual mode is a great rule, I think it could go one step further, and this would reduce even more unecessary full deaths. If you are sent into the "blacked out" or "unconcious" stage (I forget which is worse) I would like people to forget the last 30 minutes or hour of their life. This would prevent the problem of people getting up from subdual, running to the Watch, and immediately forming a war party to get the bad guys. This would lead to less FD and more RPing in the long run I think.

Anyways, just some opinions.

We're looking into some scripted solutions to fix some of the issues regarding this, but I do agree! Prolonged conflict and leaping to FD all the time is not necessarily desirable.

However -

This would prevent the problem of people getting up from subdual, running to the Watch, and immediately forming a war party to get the bad guys. This would lead to less FD and more RPing in the long run I think.

When I PvP I generally like to subdual someone before killing them, because I feel that it gives them a chance to have a few final words before their character is perma killed. It sucks to have your character killed, and having one last word - even if it is just to spit in the face of the one who is about to kill you - gives a sense of closure and makes the conflict (IMO) better for the other player. It gives them a chance to beg for their life or try and reason with my character. It also gives my character a chance to explain or taunt them before delivering the final blow.

I see it as extending a courtesy to another player and their character. It is how I would prefer to be killed and for that reason I try and treat others the same. Getting up and running, fumbling into your loot bag to grab a healing wand or invisibility potion just seems to put a damper on the moment. It results in me switching to Full Damage immediately and finishing you off, without any interaction. Which is not something I generally like to do, unless I'm in a situation that doesn't leave me no other choice.

However, I also agree with GFWD on his last part. I OOCly dislike killing other players, especially long standing characters because I know a lot of work, effort and energy has been poured into them. The sad part is in almost every case which could have resulted in a simple beat down and robbery often ends up as robbery and murder. The simple reason being that its easier to get away with murder in Sanctuary than it is robbery, especially if there are no witnesses.

I agree with the "stay down" rule. Too many times I've seen and experienced PCs get up after they've been subdualed with 1 hp or after being healed, to completely turn the tables in a fight.

Keep in mind that if someone is considerate enough to use subdual on you instead of full damage, even if the situation would allow it, it might be nice to return the favor instead of jumping up and stabbing them in the back.

Also, subdual can be a means of some interesting roleplay, but that only works if both sides cooperate.

I absolutely prefer subdual mode over full damage. The rampant, and excessive amounts of FD killings with little roleplay have disheartened me quite a bit, honestly. I'm hoping to see a bit more courtesy from players when I subdue them - likewise, I make a point to not treat being subdued as lightly as I saw some treat it recently.

Remember, death is a scary thing. A very scary thing. No one wants to die, and when you're subdualed, you're on the brink of being dead forever as far as you know. I'm probably just a little grumpy about some things that happened last evening, however, just my opinion on the subject here.

FDing people is almost always the easy way out.

It takes infinitely more balls to let an enemy live.

-Cross

I would agree with Cross totally. Recently, my character Haren attacked a pack of goblins in lower and took a beating to SD for it. Through the kindness of their hearts :), they allowed my character to live. Being every action has a reaction, that action directly contributed to the Goblin Town war.

OOC wise, I have enjoyed playing Haren much more because them goblins beating him to near death. He is constantly looking over his shoulder for them nasty and violent creatures.

I am all for SD'ing someone when all possible. IC anger fuels and often results in some great RP for most involved.

Domare

Subdual Damage is so much more interesting that Full Damage, it leads to much more interesting post-PvP scenarios where, perhaps, you would take it to FD. But yes, as Crosswind says, FD is the easy way out, and it definately takes balls to let an enemy live!

FD is also the way to get things done if you're so inclined.

SD takes balls.

FD gets results.

I think the "yank pack" implementation might also come into play these days, as robbers now can take (or are left with) one swift action to both get your stuff and make sure you dont go calling the Watch :?

While I am ever so greatly in favour of Subdual Damage, and all my PvP goes in this mode, I am still greatly saddened by much of the players handling it. Stated simply:

OOC courtesy is not repaid by OOC courtesy.

Every time I make a promise to myself to full damage people, because they will sure as hell not pay any attention to your wants either. Fortunatly for you, I am too soft to actually make a full death without roleplay -demanding- it.

I agree with this, seeing I suffered both sides of the river:

Once I got attacked by a werewolf, he SD me, and stupid me used hiding instead of staying on the floor >_>

Another time a character killed me FD on the spot (without any warning or so), which made me feel bad about it. (He had IG reasons to kill though)

As one who suffered both cases, I feel the first one, with me not hiding or so, is the best.

P.S. I want to apologize the werewolf who attacked Amy and I hid instead of staying, and would have acted differently had he told me I should stay there.

I tend to get seriously pissed off when people get up after I subdued them and jump back into the fight. It's so much easier for both sides to just stay down. Face it, face down. You lost the PvP. Just see what happens next.

I'm very glad this topic has come up. Recently I've entered the amazing foray of destruction known as pvp more frequently. I'll admit that I was pretty uncertain of how to handle the damage modes. I'd seen a variety of ways it was handled, and it seemed fairly unpredictable whether the pvp was going to be subdual or FD. As a result of this, I wasn't sure when FD was ever intended. If FD was supposed to be something that was used regularly, and that subdual was mainly for kidnapping, or what. I suppose the primary confusion from spectating was observing assassinations, where I suppose there was a significant amount of roleplay and conflict before the instance, but in the actual assassination it just appears as someone coming out of invis, buffed to the max and FD'ing. In retrospect, I know there are a variety of situations in which I could have handled them better using the subdual function rather than FD. But a question I'd have to pose is whether this "OOC" courtesy should extend beyond a single conflict.

Let's say: Character 1 beats down and robs Character 2, stealing everything they own and disappearing into the night. Character 2, gets up being rattled but thankfully not dead. This Character 2, not being one to take it lying down, and not being one to associate with the law then proceeds to hire character's three and four to assassinate Character 1. Character three and four find Character 1 in an alleyway and FD for good measure.

Is this model something that should be expected? Or would it be expected that the beat downs would continue back and forth until at long last, there's a showdown and maybe a murder or two? I would like the showdown.. but it seems like most times it's just "stab" he's dead let's go!

Obedience I tend to get seriously pissed off when people get up after I subdued them and jump back into the fight. It's so much easier for both sides to just stay down. Face it, face down. You lost the PvP. Just see what happens next.

Yes, but as I stated, there are other means rather then attacking: If the offender had to go due to other targets around, simply hiding is an option too (not using potions etc.).

I feel it (hiding) shouldn't be done either (There is now minuses to skills? What about a minus to dexterity? ).

Personally, I don't mind so much if people that have been subdued get healed by someone else and then get up. What's not so OK is when people who are dropped then get up of their own accord and heal/buff themselves and flee/fight.

I seem to be entering pvp a bit more as a player now, so have a question.

As the altercation is building up is it fair to OOC ask the other character what mode they will be on in a tell? And if they plan on going FD making an OOC suggestion on why subdual mode may be a better choice?

It's perfectly fair to OOC ask, and it's perfectly fair for them not to reply. =)

-Cross (I would reply something along the lines of "Do -you- think my character's going to try to kill you?")

Well, I had a very long well thought out post debating the different ways that subdual may be handled in the future, with logic provingthe advantages and disadvantages to one ruling over another. But as luck would have it, it didn't get posted when I hit Submit. Meh. So here's the gist of what I was about to post.

Magic can heal the blind, the lame, the sick, and the damned-near-dying. Magic can make you stronger, weaker, heartier, smarter, dumber, laugh hideously, run in fear, burn to a crisp, and make you resistant to damned near every kind of attack imaginable. Why would magic be able to bring an unconcious person (I'm using a very simple definition of subdual here, as uncounciousness) back on his feet? Now, if that's a rule for RP reasons, that's totally different matter, but I can't see any logical reason why a good healing spell can't bring a man back around.

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GFDW, something I've done once before with great success is discussing the story that you're building with the conflicts between your character and someone else's, or their faction. I don't mean that you should talk at length, decsribing what would be the best outcomes or anything, not at all. The story should play itself out. But it is a great thing when you know both sides have built up a great story and agree that the closure of that story should come soon, i.e., Full Damage combat.

Of course, remember that Full Damage combat does not always mean that your enemies are finished! 8)

Almost every rule pertaining to PvP is for OOC consideration reasons.

Which are based on making PvP combat more realistic, from what I can tell. You can't respawn because it's unrealistic/unfair. You can't just stand up from unconciousness because it's unrealistic/unfair. You can't attack in front of NPCs without a DM to react because it's unrealistic/unfair (in most cases, at least). The only rule I found that is not like this is the rule pertaining to having large level advantages over your target enemy PC, which is a rule that breaks realism to ensure some degree of fairness.

So yes it is about OOC consideration, but why is there an OOC consideration there in the first place? To enhance the realism and make the story, well, REAL, which would be impossible without these rules. I.E., a story where everyone kills each other and then comes back to life without explanation would be boring and rediculous, obviously. The rules are in place to make sure OOC fairness is maintained, sure, but the heart of the matter seems to be about keeping the story realistic and entertaining.

Anyways, getting up after being healed simply IS or IS NOT allowed, and can't be defined as inconsiderate or wrong until we've got a clear, defined rule. I'm trying to think of the fancy word for situations/terms like these, but I can't, other than if it's an objective truth and rule based on logic, it's not a problem. As it stands now, the rule is subjective, which is why this whole problem is a can of worms! (I totally stole that term from Strife, so blame him if I used it incorrectly!)

Reading back, I have a tendency to make things ruder than they mean to be. I simply want to express these thoughts for something that from my understanding is currently in debate by throwing every angle of the situation out for discussion.