Well, it's been nearly a week and I wanted to address this and see what others thought.

I'm still very enthusiastic about this idea. While at first, there was a flood of people trying out goblins and kobolds, in less than a week the number was culled both IC and OOC as everyone seemed to realize "Damn, this IS hard!".

I know that I've had a great deal of fun for most people, and I've yet to see a negative experience occur. If anything, people just don't know much about goblins since there isn't much information written about them, or their deity, and especially not about their little abode in the Lowers and its culture.

If anything, I think the one problem I have with it is that not many people will be applying for the common special-case scenario of starting as a member of the Gruzzle Tribe. A minor problem, since earning membership is certainly doable and hopefully entertaining. Kobolds have a much better App incentive, since that means that they'll be free to walk about the Uppers legally.

Aside from that, I really like the idea.

Bring on the thoughts!

Been playing a goblin, and loveing it..the culling of the herd actually gave me a whole arc to rp..really glad they opened it up. IF you are missing what so many refrence as the "survival" feel that they claim to miss, try walking in goblin shoes for a day.

kobolds are even harder!

I played a kobold and thanks for a few players (Hint? Their players are hungry... or not) I had the best feeling I could, almost died, and only thanks to my chicken side, and skill I managed surviving (With luck too).

I think people tend to forget that goblins and kobolds are -meant- to be hunted, not to look cool with the different appearance! Although this part rocks too!

I think it's great they opened the goblins and kobolds for the public, if not only to the fact they can be hunted legally.

If someone feels it's hard, he should read the page where they say:

Application FAQ Page's editor Goblins/Kobolds — The whole point of these subraces is that you're almost universally loathed by most PCs. If you apply for these subraces, you should understand and be aware that most PCs and NPCs will think very little of your PC.

Be a kobold and goblin believe me The survival feel is intsense. Especially when your a hobgoblin protecting all the goblins.

I hate the change, and I hope that it reverts back soon. Monsters as PCs, even in Sanctuary's setting, should be rare, not open to every player who wants to create one.

I also think it's a rather lackluster effort to further more player versus player conflict and make Lower and other areas more dangerous. There are better ways to do this than by letting everyone who wants to play an evil goblin or kobold do so, and then go wild on PvP and generic conflicts.

I have no doubt that the fervor over goblins and kobolds will peter out and decline substantially as the allure of the new-fangled freedom to play them fades, but I still believe that this change was inappropriate, ill-conceived, and should be reverted.

I for one like the new change and im not even playing a goblin or a Kobold but it just seems so right to go into lower and see them all running about.

Kale is right, goblins are for the hundreds, they should be spreading around. Kobold are spreading and maturing fast as well.

I think that if not to be free to take, make them easy to be applicated. Just so the dms know who creates them.

Totally like them to be regulated, and it made playing better, when I play my kobold, or meet nother's kobold or goblin.

I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure whether newer players will be pleased to be killed on sight, however, as long as people are comfortable with the consequences playing a goblin or kobold entails, the new system is fine with me.

I started out with a very negative attitude about the decission, but it is dwindling, fortunatly. I am beginning to think it was a good decission, after all.

Unfortunatly, as Garem said, not a great many Goblin/ Kobold players tend to roleplay them appropriatly, claiming there is a lack of information on them. I say bullshit, with the least bit of effort you know as much about their personalities as any Elf or Dwarf. You can't claim that without actually googling or wikiing it, or, for the actual lovers, trying the Sourcebooks.

There's a good bit about tribal goblins in Dr Dragon's Concept Recruitment thread. Maybe making a similar one for kobolds and putting somewhere noticeable would bring up RP quality.

I personally like being able to see a group of goblins and kobolds walking around lower doing quests together. It's much easier than trying to find a balanced group of PC's who's characters are willing to work with a kobold, and the conversation is fun.

Plus, now we've got a high-ranking PC in the Gruzzle Clan!

I tested the waters with a kobold and actually found it to be rather easy...er, until I met Dugbone. Garem/ Dugbone have brought out quite a bit of the fear of what Koboldin' ought to be about. -Now- I feel like a fish out of water always looking over my shoulder. Garem, keep up the outstanding work, last night was a blast from the RP standpoint.

Also an OOC shout out to Alogen who's kind compliments about little Mika were an unexpected boost to my resolve as well.

And to Keen, Rahk and the few other coldkin I've run into: Keep it up, you guys are making this a thrill to play!

Viashino_wizard There's a good bit about tribal goblins in Dr Dragon's Concept Recruitment thread. Maybe making a similar one for kobolds and putting somewhere noticeable would bring up RP quality.

I personally like being able to see a group of goblins and kobolds walking around lower doing quests together. It's much easier than trying to find a balanced group of PC's who's characters are willing to work with a kobold, and the conversation is fun.

Plus, now we've got a high-ranking PC in the Gruzzle Clan!

There is someone who does it for kobolds. You will be suprised in the number of kobolds around, I suggest to gather them up!

Sedarine

Also an OOC shout out to Alogen who's kind compliments about little Mika were an unexpected boost to my resolve as well.

And to Keen, Rahk and the few other coldkin I've run into: Keep it up, you guys are making this a thrill to play!

Thank you, Sedarine! :) And yes, numbers make it fun, enemies fills it with adrenaline!

If we keep consistant I think we will become -much- better players in pvp! :twisted:

Coldkin power! :P

Perhaps then, to qualm that uneasiness, kobolds and goblins be taken to a special OOC room with a portal and a sign that gives all the warnings in the world about how they're going to be treated, for the most part, and how the PvP rules are quite different for them.

Oh and Coldburn... "I started out with a very negative attitude about the decission, but it is dwindling, fortunatly." I told you so. :)

Anyways, I meant that it's not as available as the others for in-depth information regarding particular customs, etc. There could be a whole sourcebook for Faerunian festivals of all the various gods, but I can't find one solid source of information on Maglubiyet, the goblin deity, for example.

For start, I would suggest google kobolds and their gods :)

Edit: Of course, Wikipedia has the basics

Maglubiyet In many campaign settings for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, Maglubiyet is the chief deity of goblins and hobgoblins. He is a god of war and leadership who rules over the goblin pantheon with an iron fist.

Maglubiyet's many titles include: Fiery-Eyes, the Mighty One, the High Chieftain, and the Lord of Depths and Darkness. As a god of war and a great general he is also known as the Battle Lord. Another of his aliases may be the Iron One, an aspect worshipped by the Grodd goblins in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.

Maglubiyet appears as a giant (11 feet tall), black-skinned goblin with flaming eyes, powerfully-muscled arms and sharp talons. He wields a mighty coal-black battleaxe that constantly drips blood.

Maglubiyet is currently served by Khurgorbaeyag, goblin god of slavery, oppression, and morale, and Bargrivyek, the god of co-operation and territory among the goblins. Nomog-Geaya, patron deity of the hobgoblins, also pays fealty to Maglubiyet.

Maglubiyet is an unpopular deity with many gods, including those of the elves, dwarves, orcs, and others. Maglubiyet covets the fertility portfolio of Kikanuti, the good-aligned goblinoid goddess of the desert goblins.

Maglubiyet's divine realm is Clangor, located on the plane of Acheron. His capital is a fortress city called Grashmog, which translated from the goblin tongue means the "Heart of Battle." The mightiest goblin city in Clangor is Shetring, a fortification with five bridges spanning the River Lorfang. Maglubiyet lives at the bottom of a waterfall of the river in a cavern of magnificently carved steel dripping with moisture.

From his throne of flaming iron, Maglubiyet commands the souls of goblins, hobgoblins, and worgs to wage eternal war against the orcish petitioners of Gruumsh. He also employs baatezu, barghests, and yugoloths as mercenaries and commanders to bolster his armies.

Maglubiyet allows the gods Khurgorbaeyag and Nomog-Geaya to live in his realm, if only just to keep an eye on them.

Maglubiyet revels in conflict and destruction and constantly pushes his followers to wage war, particularly against dwarves and gnomes. He encourages goblins to increase their numbers in order to overrun their enemies. As a paranoid god he is prone to destroy lesser goblin deities when he suspects treachery or he thinks they are becoming too powerful.

The priests and shamans of Maglubiyet are his mouthpieces on the Material Planes. They fulfill his demands for blood sacrifices by dispatching victims with an axe. They believe that these sacrifices strengthen Maglubiyet. His clergy is almost always drawn from the goblin and hobgoblin races. In the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, the tasloi also worship an aspect of Maglubiyet.

Maglubiyet communes with his priests through omens. Blood flowing from the edge of an axe, abnormal behavior in worgs and wolves, and speaking directly through shamans in a trance are all ways he makes his will known.

In some worlds Maglubiyet's priests wear gray-green scale mail and conical hats and worship him in cave temples where they make sacrifices of hearts to him monthly.

Maglubiyet's holy day is the new moon and his holy weapon is the battleaxe. His goblin worshippers are sometimes referred to as the "sons of Maglubiyet."

In times past, Maglubiyet had two sons who served as his lieutenants. However, in true goblin fashion, he decided that they were a threat. To get rid of them he sent them on suicide missions against the orcs and dwarves until they were slain.

alogen Of course, Wikipedia has the basics

Coldburn, you're about to get pwned.

I've already been there, asked about it, offered the changes, and was told that it was incorrect or partially so at best. Coldburn is lame.

If you didn't know, as stated at the top of the very quote you just posted, that info is only for the standard campaign, no the Forgotten Realms.

We've gotten off-topic. Coldburn, we bare-knuckle box this one out in IRC, mano-e-mano.

Blur potion plz.

I've really liked the change, but I suppose there's no accounting for personal taste.

I do have a question about these......

Does the server rule about attacking level 2-3 characters still stand for kobolds and Goblins? because if not then it's going to make playing one even harder than a newb to the class might think.

Theres no rule that says you can't attack a level 2/3. There's a rule that says you can't attack them with no reason! Being a Kobold/Goblin is a good reason to be attacked. Honestly, if you are following all of the other PvP rules, there is no reason why you would have to worry about the other characters level.

In regards to Howlands announcment about not needing a dm on for pvp against Kobolds and goblins in lower does this apply for all pvp or just some. What i mean is running up and stabbing one with a sword i would say is okay but standing there in the middle of the street firing off a crossbow or lobbing spells especially when most Npc's could only see you and not the Kobold i really think would still need Dm supervision or am i going to deeply into this?

I thought Howland clarified that in his post?

Aside from the general level 2/3 rule, all other PvP rules are still in place for Goblins and Kobolds.

I like the change, and I don't agree that it is a cheap way to make lower more dangerous, I think it is a great way to make lower dangerous.

I have only been on the server for a few months, but the day after goblins and kobolds were made legal I was finally mugged in lower. So now, lower feels more like it should for me, I actually walk around with a weapon drawn just incase.

So I give it a thumbs up.

I think it was a great change! I think it's added to the look and feel of Sanctuary, and it's an extra survival challenge to play a goblin/kobold for those who wish it. I haven't personally seen any negative side to it so far.

It's harder playing a goblin or kobold, yes. It's more dangerous around, especially for kobolds or goblins, yes. Good idea, yes.

And of course, kobolds and goblins -should- be much bigger then the normal races, and considering them being hunted, there should be many of them in lower.

I think it's more logical to have them played by many for IG reasons, and I think it's a great addition for OOC reasons.

Great change, I say!

Being one of those who play a kobold regulary, I say the change is great. The feeling I had when I first entered Lower Sanctuary as a kobold was great, and had me on my toes from the very first minute.

As far as I have noticed, there has not been that big invasion of kobolds or goblins as first feared. I regulary see perhaps 2-4 kobolds on, the goblins varying. So personally I think it's a great change, and have had some good moments with both kobolds I have played.

The change was very welcomed, and has learned me a thing or two more about PvP.

Even though I have trouble staying alive with many (err all) of my characters, I love my kobold. I think it forces me to pay more attention to the game, usually I'm easily distracted. So far, I've almost been enslaved by three goblins, and almost killed by three dwarves. Three is Rinn's unlucky number I guess.

I like it. Is seems that monster PCs are willing to take more risks in lower and really give it that wonderfully desperate and scummy touch.

I did like it, especially when there were a mixture of goblins and kobolds running around. However, today I saw one goblin and at least five kobolds all in one spot. I lost faith in the change a little bit there. I hope it equals out in the future.

Not long ago, I was chased by three goblins and later saw another one!

Lost faith?

The sudden influx of all these races is to be expected, especially when they've previously been restricted by applications. At this point in NWN's lifetime everyone's played pretty much every race/class combination possible, so they're now trying out something novel. I don't see too much of a problem with seeing large groups of these races in one spot, Sanctuary has a pretty large population of Goblins and Kobolds. So, it's not too much different from seeing a large group of dwarves/elves/etcetera.

Though, like you said, I think things will slow down a bit in that department when most people have given it a shot.

It makes complete IC sense for these swiftly breeding monsters to be common, I have no problem with that. They're like cockroaches.

I had two slight concerns:

(1) Despite our warnings, people would resent having their low level characters being killed off for being hideous monsters (hasn't really been a problem AFAIK)

(2) People would RP the goblins/kobolds extremely poorly. This hasn't happened either, and it's worth noting that it's probably a lot easier for your average NWN player to RP a goblin/kobold than it is to RP an elf or paladin, and both can be applied freely.

Either that or our RPers are all really quite good.

Which is my belief.

-Cross

Howland (1) Despite our warnings, people would resent having their low level characters being killed off for being hideous monsters (hasn't really been a problem AFAIK)

I sorta looked forward the this aspect. Our Underdark seems a bit tame compared to what I would envision it to be. It sort of adds the survival feel back in! ((Note: The underdark on EFU is plenty dangerous...but you do get used to it, and the plethora of ways to break combat really helps. But it can still bite ya!))

Howland (2) People would RP the goblins/kobolds extremely poorly. This hasn't happened either, and it's worth noting that it's probably a lot easier for your average NWN player to RP a goblin/kobold than it is to RP an elf or paladin, and both can be applied freely.

I was afraid this might happen too, but the kobolds I have been playing with have been top notch RPers! Amazing how we adapt! Also the goblin opposition has benn dastardly (Scrapayeti! ) and downright evil (Dugbone!), not to mention just nuts (Scalebane!). Great work to you all!

This change rules.

I resemble that remark! At least when it comes to kobolds. Gruzzle rules, baby.

In response to Sedarine.

I LOVE this change. So many opportunities for fun conflict. I have high hopes for this change!

I think part of taking such race is like declaring:

I'm not afraid of PvP, and quite the opposite, I want some!

It's good to be able to do it, while still roleplaying.

alogen I think part of taking such race is like declaring:

I'm not afraid of PvP, and quite the opposite, I want some!

It's good to be able to do it, while still roleplaying.

Preach the word my brother!

All the PvP has been good...even when that dirty gnome Stolig took a couple swings at me this morning!

I praised the gnomes player for just doing it! It's supposed to be tough, and for those of you not pulling any punches, I applaud you all!

After those point I got, I realized my character more (Who is trying to go the exact other side of the alignment)

Now, where are those kobolds?

Out of two goblins, one has been killed, at level two. Hunted down and slaughtered. AND IT WAS AWESOME!!! The life of a goblin is one where a life means nothing, and there are thousands waiting to step into your shoes.. Death, and perma death, is expected, I think, if you run one. A goblin or kobold should expect pvp from the moment your ig. If that is something you do not want, think twice and do not get too attached to your little scurrying fool.

The feeling of being chased/persecuted, always looking over your shoulder, is great!

If I've any complaint about the PvP aspects, though, it's that some of those who hunt and attack goblins/kobolds on sight conveniently forget their racial bias when it comes time to buy healing from Bunge, or to deliver goblin spices, or to help a goblin with a volt problem. Let's be consistent, hey? Make sure you ask yourself if you're truly being IC for the spirit of the character, or if you're just looking for an excuse for PvP when it's convenient for you.

Coldburn I started out with a very negative attitude about the decission, but it is dwindling, fortunatly. I am beginning to think it was a good decission, after all.

Unfortunatly, as Garem said, not a great many Goblin/ Kobold players tend to roleplay them appropriatly, claiming there is a lack of information on them. I say bullshit, with the least bit of effort you know as much about their personalities as any Elf or Dwarf. You can't claim that without actually googling or wikiing it, or, for the actual lovers, trying the Sourcebooks.

Actually, there's almost no information to be found outside of bought source books intended for PnP, which are also full of useless info like alternate classes that we can't use (frustrating :x ). That is where I have to get all of my info, 'cause all the info online is incomplete or non-existent.

JackOfSwords If I've any complaint about the PvP aspects, though, it's that some of those who hunt and attack goblins/kobolds on sight conveniently forget their racial bias when it comes time to buy healing from Bunge, or to deliver goblin spices, or to help a goblin with a volt problem. Let's be consistent, hey?

I completely agree with this statement.

Considering the recent events, it breaks the consistency.