To clarify, can anyone clearly define the Paladin's Code for me?
Paladin Code
NO POISON!! <_<
It probably varies from god to god. What deity?
Taken from Wikipedia:
Typical tenets of the Paladin code are as follows, (though many variants exist, see below.)* A Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment. * A Paladin can never commit an Evil act. * A Paladin cannot associate with any character that persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall- notably Evil creatures. * A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times. * A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to their enemies. * A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.
Occasional, necessary, minor deviations are permissible, but a single gross violation of his/her code of conduct will strip the Paladin of powers until he/she Atones. Acts of Evil or alignment shift always qualify. (Atonement typically involves a quest or undertaking by way of penance, but forced or accidental violations may waive this requirement.)
Similarly to Monks, Paladins cannot consistently multiclass. Adding levels to any other class permanently halts progression as a Paladin, to reflect the devotion and single-mindedness of purpose expected of the class. However, all class abilities are retained in such cases.
A Fallen Paladin can choose to trade-in their levels for equivalent Blackguard powers.
"Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong. That is your oath" - Kingdom of Heaven
I've always figured this was more or less what it all boiled down to.
Scalebane7676 It probably varies from god to god. What deity?
Currently looking at Helm.
Excellent, thanks Tofu. Though:
* A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times.
Obviously they cannot lie, but what are their limits of deception?
- ex. A paladin was told by an elf named Jimmy about some information. Someone questions him, and it is obvious the Paladin doesn't want to reveal the name of this elf:
Questioner: Who told you this? Paladin: [Shrugs] Some elf.
versus
Questioner: Who told you this? Paladin: The elf named Jimmy.
Also on the note of forthrightness, how does sarcasm rank? Is that alone enough to strip a Paladin of his code? (Mind that I'm trying to play a flawed Paladin, yet attempt to maintain his code.)
* A Paladin cannot associate with any character that persistently commits acts which would cause the Paladin him/herself to Fall- notably Evil creatures.
Does this mean associate at all? As in a five mile restraining order? Wouldn't a Paladin have to associate with evil to an extent in an attempt to convert them? (While I note that Paladins are warriors, they're also noted for saving souls. Like how they don't run out and slash the heads off of all evil without good reason.)
Also, I'd highly recommend that the code that Tofu posted be mirrored onto this thread here.
I thought a Paladin could speak false if it's for the greater good.
IE:
A Drow holds 2 children locked away. He'll let one go, if you leave him alone to his business.
He'll let both go, if you take their place, promising not to harm the Drow.
If you choose the latter, I think you can tell him you'll leave him unharmed; though smite him once the children are safely away. I think this'll get you some chaotic points, but will still be the way a Paladin should act. Possibly wrong, though!
Sternhund To clarify, can anyone clearly define the Paladin's Code for me?Only the base, which Tofu and BadOmens both managed to nail. As Scalebane suggested, it does indeed vary from deity to deity. There are not, however, any canon FR paladin codes, since it's usually one of the things left for the DM to sort out; but here's a very good example of how one such might look to paladins of Torm, and another one for purple dragon knights.
Sternhund Obviously they cannot lie, but what are their limits of deception?If you don't want to reveal Jimmy's identity, none of those are really any good. "Some elf," "an elf," or "a short, thin guy" all work, however.ex. A paladin was told by an elf named Jimmy about some information. Someone questions him, and it is obvious the Paladin doesn't want to reveal the name of this elf:
Questioner: Who told you this? Paladin: [Shrugs] Some elf.
versus
Questioner: Who told you this? Paladin: The elf named Jimmy.
Sternhund Also on the note of forthrightness, how does sarcasm rank? Is that alone enough to strip a Paladin of his code? (Mind that I'm trying to play a flawed Paladin, yet attempt to maintain his code.)It doesn't state anywhere paladins aren't allowed to have humour, and they certainly are allowed to taunt and verbally abuse their enemies. Just make sure it's warranted (when the 12 year old boy asks you for a coin, don't respond with, "because obviously, since I walk around with a shiny full plate, a gilded great sword, and potions enough to make the Dark Lake feign in comparison, I'm also a wealthy son of a bitch who can afford to just throw around with gold.").
Sternhund Does this mean associate at all? As in a five mile restraining order? Wouldn't a Paladin have to associate with evil to an extent in an attempt to convert them? (While I note that Paladins are warriors, they're also noted for saving souls. Like how they don't run out and slash the heads off of all evil without good reason.)Helmites, specifically, are known for destroying evil rather than "work to heal its damages," as it says in the FRCS entry.
Finally, this thread, while a bit of a long read, might clear up some questions you didn't know you had.
A Fallen Paladin can choose to trade-in their levels for equivalent Blackguard powers.
Holy shit. That is awesome.
Certainly Paladins should not be questing with evil charchters on any kind of basis the previous thread that was mentioned does go into it, also make sure to check out the Gods Dogma to see how he would interpret it.
I wouldn't have a problem with a paladin whom is trying to redeem a person with "Taint" but in doing so you should not be questing with them rather you should try and talk them round to your way of thinking, spend time with them but helping them attain wealth and influence is right out.
It's too bad that we don't have access to the Gray Gaurd Prestige class as that is a paladin who can make minor violation of his Code if in doing so it serves a greater good. I think that this Prestige Class is one of the most intersting that Wizards have done in a long while.
Two examples above are given.
Let's clarify a little on how I'd have a paladin respond.
"Who told you?"
"Some elf" (not a lie exactly, more an omission. Some elf did tell you, you're failing to inform him you know the name of the elf.) vs "Tommy the elf." (Which puts an innocent elf in danger. This is not paladin behavior at all I'd think.) What I'd suggest is far more honest and dutiful. "I will not tell you that for the safety of the person who told me."
With the drow situation and the kids.
Instead of promising not to smite him, just agree to take the children's place or swear not to kill the drow. That does not mean you won't beat down, tie up, and carry the drow to the parents of the children he captured so it can face justice--and execution.
When thinking about paladins--consider Superman not Batman. Only Superman in this situation often deals with creatures and beings he knows are beyond redemption or compassion and that he must therefore kill.
I mirror all of Oro's statements, and respond further with this
Having played two paladins so far, I can safely say that they are probably the hardest character class to play.
Doing good isn't hard. Lawful actions are a bit more complex. Sometimes you will be doing something that you normally do, and suddenly get chaotic points. There is a good reason why you got the points, and a DM will explain it to you. These points are for the minor infractions against the Code.
It can be: 1. Talking to an Evil NPC or PC without confronting him on his evil acts. 2.. Accepting a fixed quest that involves subtrafuge, posion, theft, lying, etc. 3. Backing out of combat and when your friends or the inoccent need to be protected. 4. Making bargains with evil PCs. 5. Buying weapons, clothing, or anything else from an evil PC or NPC. 6. Killing an evil person that asks for mercy. 7. Making a promise and breaking it. 8. Making fun or acting happy when you see an evil person "Get their just reward." 9. Knowing the plans of an evil person and not actively trying to foil them.
There are many others.
One of the hardest parts of the Code to keep is "Do not let evil prosper." Some might say, "Well, I see someone who is evil, so I go up and tell them to turn from their ways...." That is a job for the clerics. It is not the paladin's job to redeam people. Clerics do that. A paladin may listen to a person gush about how they want to change, but their job is to defeat evil, not preach or give sermons. Best way for a paladin that wants to "Turn to the path of light" is to point him to a cleric and say "Go talk to them, and trouble me no more."
The Detect Evil ablility is only a tool. Some evil is hidden, and it is more important to judge from someone's actions, than to blindly depend on DE. You might break your code working with someone that is not evil, but sure doesn't have the same goals as the Paladin. This makes paladins loners most of the time. It is very hard to find others who share the same goals and views as a paladin.
Because a paladin cannot associate with evil, be prepared to level up very slowly. You will get frustrated when you are not able to go on a special DM quest because the NPC that is offering the "job" is evil, or some evil PC refuses to drop from party. You won't be able to go on many regular quests, because you won't be able to get a group large enough to go with you that doesn't include evil PCs. You will get into many arguments about why you refuse to "just let Steelgrind, the big bad arse with the ax" join the group.
There will be many situations that will frustrate you to no end. Mostly because you have to wait for an evil person to do something blatantly evil before you can take action. Other times, you may be tempted to do something that is good, but not necissarily lawful. Sometimes you have to follow the law, even though doing so will result in something bad happening.
Someone once told me, "Its the job of evil people to taunt paladins endlessly, cause they can't touch you unless they see you do something bad..." To an extent this is true, and this makes playing a paladin like being the geek in high school who everyone picks on. My tip for this? Don't chose to play a paladin if your feelings are easily hurt. (and again-- you can't act happy when you see that same person get beaten in combat or killed)
One last tip-- Playing a paladin is hard, and you will end up talking to the DMs a lot. Don't argue with the DMs, politely ask why you got those chaotic or evil points, and adjust your play so you don't do it again.
If you don't talk to the DMs while playing a paladin, you will only frustrate yourself.
Paladins of different deities not only act differently, Paladins of different orders to the same deity even act differently.
There is a Paladin Order of Ilmater, the Order of the Golden Chalice if I'm not mistaken, that, given the choice between either saving the lives of dozens of innocent people and letting the evil guy get away, or kill the evil guy and letting the dozens of innocent die, he'd chose the latter. The logic behind it is prevention; If the evil guy escapes, who's to say he won't do it again and again? They are very pro-active on evil, which isn't to say that they won't help the innocent given a reasonable chance. They chose prevention over repression, however. Better to prevent the hurt than heal it.
I echo Coldburn's statement, it entirely depends on your order and god. There are a ton of paladin books published, but most of them reflect a general paladin code that I think should be altered based on religion.
The Tyrran training isn't going to be the same as Ilmaterean training. And even withinthe same religion and among paladins there are radically different sects. For a Helmite, I'd say you'd take the basic paladin code, and make certain you're following the lawful portions of that code to the letter. Helm is a LN god so I imagine his paladin followers would emphasize the lawful aspects of the code over the good aspects. What's important is to find a paladin order you think your character most resembles, and abide by those rules or principles. (If your background is training in a paladin order)
Keep in mind that those rules are just guidelines. A paladin won't act perfectly in every situation. It's much more interesting when you only keep them in mind for background, and have a character that fits into them, but is unique on his own. Even if a character is fully trained as a paladin, I imagine being in the Underdark would change his perspective drastically. Shane went through some fundamental changes in his beliefs while I played with him, and that definitly encouraged me to try the same with Fryar, and that's when Fryar became a much more interesting character to me, and I think that's something a lot of paladins forget to do. Even with the bulk of all of these silly little restrictions threaten to make your character static it's much more fun to make a dynamic character.
I'd point out Sparrowmint is entirely off base about paladins roles as saviors.
While clerics have the main obligation of giving sermons and converting and saving souls-killing is not a good thing. Paladins are warriors first and foremost, but if they can redeem an evil soul to the light that is far preferable to killing him and bolstering the forces of Hell.
The thing is, your paladin can't be so naive that when someone says, "Oh, I may convert if you help me kill these goblins," you believe them. You need to make sure they are truly working to convert and change their ways, show them kindness and compassion if they ask for mercy but make them earn forgiveness and face the consequences of their actions.
The Tyrran training isn't going to be the same as Ilmaterean training.I would argue against that A paladin of Tyr and a paladin of Ilmater still share the same class features, the same code, the same weapon proficencies. Clerics on the other hand, can be of a more varied alignment, pick different domains etc.
The Detect Evil ablility is only a tool. Some evil is hidden, and it is more important to judge from someone's actions, than to blindly depend on DE.Paladins -should- relay on detect evil. If it was thought to be unreliable, no paladin would bother learning to use the class feature in the first place.
Looks like I deviate a bit, but I'll play it out and see how it goes, and more importantly adapt where necessary (thanks to this thread). Anyway:
Helmites, specifically, are known for destroying evil rather than "work to heal its damages," as it says in the FRCS entry.
Yes, Helm is the cold one. He sees evil, he wants to slay it and move on. Though I don't see why you can't at least attempt to heal one's damages. My opinion: Attempt to redeem; if the case becomes dire, intervene by methods as high as force.
1. Talking to an Evil NPC or PC without confronting him on his evil acts. 4. Making bargains with evil PCs. 6. Killing an evil person that asks for mercy.
I disagree with these. For point 1, any Paladin knows that if you walk up to an evil man and tell him he's evil, he's not going to take you seriously. You need to develop some sort of foundation before you approach the "You're evil" talk.
For number 4, what if making such bargains leads to evil fighting amongst evil?
For number 6, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe this applies for Helmite Paladins. Perhaps for Ilmaterian ones.
I agree, Sternhund. I think that the code will very, and it entirely depends on circumstances. What has the evil person done? Is there hope for redemption? Obviously there's going to be a big discrepancy in reactions from followers of different gods. But a paladin of Helm -is- going to be more likely to try and redeem a person asking for mercy then a strict interpreter of Helm's dogma.
And I entirely agree, a paladin can have some ounce of subtlety in how he approaches redeeming evil people, or even speaking to them.
Sternhund1. Talking to an Evil NPC or PC without confronting him on his evil acts. 4. Making bargains with evil PCs. 6. Killing an evil person that asks for mercy.I disagree with these. For point 1, any Paladin knows that if you walk up to an evil man and tell him he's evil, he's not going to take you seriously. You need to develop some sort of foundation before you approach the "You're evil" talk.
For number 4, what if making such bargains leads to evil fighting amongst evil?
For number 6, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe this applies for Helmite Paladins. Perhaps for Ilmaterian ones.
I am only talking about my personal experiances, mate. I have gotten alignment changes for these things.
All I am saying is this.... Be aware that your actions will cause reprecussions, and that you will get alignment changes when you least expect it. Losing your abilities because of the actions you take makes you watch what you say, and makes you consider every action.
Like I said before-- talking to the DMs is the key. Sometimes you aren't aware that what you are doing is chaotic, or that you are breaking the code. The DMs will help point it out to you.
Spirrowmint, I don't know what you've experienced but it sounds like bitterness over specific situations, rather then general points that would be applicable to Sternhund. I've played a long-term paladin who made many controversial decisions with only very few alignment shifts, and I certainly talked to evil characters without browbeating them.
Alignment shifts aren't a huge deal, anyways, as long as you're acting how your character would. Paladins are difficult to play, but their decisions aren't -that- difficult, you just need to consciously make those decisions.
One little thing: please do not interpret Chaos or Evil shifts as a DM telling you that you are playing your character poorly. This isn't the case at all, and quite honestly, some of the most interesting characters in our server's history have had challenging bouts of chaos and evil they've faced to keep their paladin status.
I put together a list of canon paladin orders i could find for nwn2wiki.
http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Paladin_orders
The little descriptions give you an idea of just how much their behaviour can vary, and I concur with pretty much the general feeling that codes depend on deity and aspect of that deity.
But just because you choose Helm as your deity doesn't automatically mean your Paladin is a member of the Vigilant Eyes of the God.
I disagree with these. For point 1, any Paladin knows that if you walk up to an evil man and tell him he's evil, he's not going to take you seriously. You need to develop some sort of foundation before you approach the "You're evil" talk.Every time I have told a PC his character was evil, no matter how it was said or whatever the circumstances, it resulted in said character trying to justify his alignment, then claim to be better than my paladin, then the character would beguin to hunt down my paladin. He stopped making sendings after that.
Nero24200And I, sir, would argue against your (pointless) arguing. I just gave the example of two Paladin orders of Ilmater who have radically different beliefs and take radically different actions in the same situations. You don't enter an Order and 'graduate', only then to choose your Path. No, you are trained in the Path each Paladinic Order believes if the best Path to take to the Greater Good. So hell yes, all Paladins receive different training.The Tyrran training isn't going to be the same as Ilmaterean training.I would argue against that.
I just gave the example of two Paladin orders of Ilmater who have radically different beliefs and take radically different actions in the same situations.And despite acting differently they were subject to the same code.
And I, sir, would argue against your (pointless) arguing.I don't see how it's pointless, its relevent to the thread and if proven right, it means that there is a universal code to follow regarding paladins, as opposed to making seperate codes for seperate paladin orders.
No, you are trained in the Path each Paladinic Order believes if the best Path to take to the Greater Good. So hell yes, all Paladins receive different training.Paladin orders are less focused in the gods ways and more focused on fighting evil. Hence why even Neutral Good Gods or Lawful Neutral Gods require their paladins to be Lawful Good. There is a reason behind this strict requirement, simply being a faithful warrior to a god is not enough to make them a paladin. Having the same training/personal code -can- still produce different results. Play for a sports team, and despite attending the same practise sessions and same games as everyone else on the team, you'll still have a different degree of skill in regards to it. It doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, the training still came from the same source.
Nero24200 Play for a sports team, and despite attending the same practise sessions and same games as everyone else on the team, you'll still have a different degree of skill in regards to it. It doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, the training still came from the same source.Thank you for this example, it'll make it very easy to convey my message. We all know the game universally known as Football, or Soccer in some second-world countries. Both teams play by the same rules, this is true. You can't headbutt the referee in the face, touch the ball with your hands (unless your a goalee/ keeper, provided you are in a specifically appointed area in a circle 15 metres from the centerpoint of your goal... Whatever.) The rules apply to every team and country associated with the FIFA, the World-Federation for football. Now, however, while all teams have the same rules, and the object of the game is winning, this does not mean each and every team does so in the same way. Some play very conservatively, some veyr offensive. Others, like Brazil, play on defense, until an opening in the opponent's defenses opens up, quickly countering with the ball and going for the quick goal. You see that it will be very obvious that a team gets trained in one specific way. It is no use to have the Brazilians adapt another style of play, since they are very comfortable and familiar with this, and they believe it is the best way to win. On the other hand, small countries like Macedonia or Estonia simply know that they do not have the skills to match other countries, and thus play very defensive, trying to get as little points against them as they can.
So all in all, this example should point out that what you say is very flawed. The game + rules + objectives may be the same, but how you archieve this, thus your training, is dependant on each group.
I have to agree with Coldburn. The "paladin code" changes slightly from order to order, and their training can be quite different.
I eat tofu and cheese Taken from Wikipedia:Typical tenets of the Paladin code are as follows, (though many variants exist, see below.)* A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to their enemies. * A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.
This last part of the paladin code is clearly questionable when it comes to the Knights of the Shadowy Cloak for example, who would use subterfuge, bluff, stealth and sneak attack quite often when it came to destroying goblins and kobolds. In addition, they would never bother trying to redeem a member of these races, and would probably destroy them even if they detected no evil in their soul (because they are so sneaky they're probably just hiding it from me!!).
nwn2wiki paladin ordersKnights of the Shadowy Cloak
* Deity: Baravar Cloakshadow * Multiclass as cleric, fighter, wizard (illusionist) or rogue. * This order keeps a low profile in gnome communities and seeks to eliminate goblinoids, kobolds, and other evil humanoids, for these creatures cannot be redeemed. They work secretly so as to not attract attention or retaliation to local gnome communities.
Hokay so lets consider this scenario: (Kudos to the player(s) I was(were) with when this happened)
Paladin approaches Evil Man X. He declares that he will duel Evil Man X, and tells him to prepare to fight to the death. Evil Man X runs, the Paladin chases and Evil Man X escapes.
Upon their next meeting, would it be Paladinly of the Paladin to go ahead and attack Evil Man X outright? He did, after all, state his intent beforehand. Or would he have to approach Evil Man X and openly declare a duel once more?
If deity matters, Helm's the name.
Also, I'd like to reiterate an above question:
It's said that Paladins are not to make bargains with evil. What if such bargains lead to the Paladin having two evil forces declare opposition to one another? Is this considered a Paladin's "bad" way to approach evil, too devious, etc.?
Sternhund Paladin approaches Evil Man X. He declares that he will duel Evil Man X, and tells him to prepare to fight to the death. Evil Man X runs, the Paladin chases and Evil Man X escapes.It's a difficult question, and the answer depends, I think, on the situation. As a Helmite, I wouldn't attack before Evil Man X has agreed to duel, unless I knew for certain that Evil Man X was plotting the destruction of all of Sanctuary or whatever, and that this might be the only chance to stop him. I wouldn't attack with intention to kill if we're only talking a single murder or something -- I'd probably inform the authorities at my earliest convenience, and try and subdue the person if I encountered him again (with Hoar, I'd kill).Upon their next meeting, would it be Paladinly of the Paladin to go ahead and attack Evil Man X outright? He did, after all, state his intent beforehand. Or would he have to approach Evil Man X and openly declare a duel once more?
Sternhund It's said that Paladins are not to make bargains with evil. What if such bargains lead to the Paladin having two evil forces declare opposition to one another? Is this considered a Paladin's "bad" way to approach evil, too devious, etc.?I'd definitely consider such an approach worthy of chaos points. Now it comes down to, is the benefit of having these two forces turn on each other big enough to risk losing the status of paladin (maybe for good), or would you rather keep that awesome Cha mod bonus to all saves? Neither are necessarily OOC. It's true that Helm pretty much impersonates law, but he also strongly opposes, and fights, evil, so it ultimately comes down to what kind of paladin you are. Of course, we're talking about some serious evil here, not just putting the goblins and kobolds of Sanctuary in an open war.
A thing you may also want to keep in mind is that, at least percentage wise, there are probably a lot more fallen Helmite paladins than of any other deity (maybe with the exception of Hoar).
The answer to a lot of these "What if" questions depends on the Paladin's god...
-Cross
And i'd add that the answer to how much the paladin actually pays attention to his god depends on the way the PC became paladin:
- did he voluntarily act as a crusader (much like a cleric, then...)
- is he so noble in spirit that a deity pays more attention to him, in which case their is no black/white hard code, just honest feelings and common sense.