Just for the sake of argument, there's one skill i feel is a little overused, and that is sneaking. :x

Some people walk in town "invisible" and appear out of nowhere in front of town hall or where-ever.

I've been out of ADD for a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time, but i remember a skill named "hide in shadows", not "become invisible right next to the next guy".

So you sneaks (those concerned of course, not all do !), please walk normally, or else set the default Watch script on "hey, you, why are you sneaking around ?"

Maybe reducing "sneak speed" to half of "search speed" (used to walk normally) might be an idea ? :?: Or making that skill very harder to use when in not dark areas (i know it's done, but make it even more harder !) Well, underdark is dark of course... Or allowing all classes to have spot and listen as class skills... I mean, even with Clairvoyance (+15) i'll have a hard time spotting a lvl 5/6 sneak (+4base+5skill+3DEX+not to mention hins & items....)

By the way, is there an emote for people sneaking ? That'd be fun to see low lvl sneaks creeping around town unsuccessfully ! :D

Awaiting your answers, sneaks: fire away ! :D

Well there are skills to counter it and if your that concerned take more 'int' and take the skills you need to see people.

Sometimes people lame the hide/ms skill out sure, but that goes with anything really.

Well, the point is, few classes can take the skills to counter it... even with 18 INT.

And as far as rp is concerned, sneaking instead of walking is just.... weird.

Sneaking could be viewed in other lines. That is, walking inconspicuously around. Whenever a player hits tab, you can get the names of all around you and notice if there is a player nearby. If a character is sneaking in town it could be viewed as one blending into the "crowd", or making himself difficult to notice.

Just my view of it.

It's pretty stupid and annoying. I usually get quite angry when half the party sneaks while it's not needed, be it on a quest or in town. It's just very annoying not to see the guys who're supposed to be your friends.

Also, please remember that a real thief would -never- just sneak around for no good, not even through town, unless he's currently wanted. Sneaking is a great way to appear suspicious, something a thief really doesn't want.

Jasede

Also, please remember that a real thief would -never- just sneak around for no good, not even through town, unless he's currently wanted. Sneaking is a great way to appear suspicious, something a thief really doesn't want.

Totally.

Unless, he's wanting just to practice.

Or he's not overly fond of being noticed by crowds.

Or perhaps he's scared by years of slavery and life in the Underdark and so prefers to remain at all times in the shadows.

Or maybe he just feels like sneaking around because he thinks its fun.

Or maybe he...I could go on.

No, no, no. Review the EfU policy regarding stealth. Since to get really good stealth in EfU is reliant upon magic (spells like camouflage, magic equipment, etc.), it should be considered a semi-magical ability and there are no limitations on its use beyond what is scripted. Areas in which it is harder to hide in are indeed scripted to be harder to hide in.

Although it's great to RP hiding in shadows, behind corners, etc. it is completely fine to sneak up to spy on someone even in a well lit inn room to spy on a conversation or whatever else.

It is also completely fine for a stealth character to always be in stealth if that what's the character would do.

Cross-classing spot/listen is doable for every character, spells + magic items exist to help with detection, and there are tons of hidden modifiers as well that make stealth detection easier.

Eh, Oro, actually, no.

Thanks Howland for clearing that up again! That's pretty enlightening and helpful.

And I could be mistaken, but Im pretty sure that either spot or listen, if not both, is helped by wisdom, not intelligence.

Cel And I could be mistaken, but Im pretty sure that either spot or listen, if not both, is helped by wisdom, not intelligence.

The point being made is that Int is required to take skills, of which Listen and Spot are some.

Elves have to use stealth to walk. So it's fair.

A95 Elves have to use stealth to walk. So it's fair.

You can also hold down the shift key when you want to walk. Or you could make it the space key or something for convenience.

SnowJewel, also remember that characters make Spot/Listen checks every round against a stealthed character. Meaning just five ranks in either is pretty good defense against most stealthy people; especially lower-level ones without considerable magical equipment. The relative ease of spotting a character spying on you is even greater, considering the length of time they'll be spending near your character.

I have two Lawful Good characters who sneak around pretty much all the time... its in their nature to, for totally different reasons.

Its only inappropriate IMO if someone is sneaking around purely because they can without an IC reason, or because its a habit to hit F1 when you walk around town. I occasionally do this with Ileana when the canal gates were dangerous - she'd be in stealth to get into town, and then I'd forget to come out of it once in town. She has no good reason to be permanently sneaky - it was just me OOCly forgetting to come out of it!

I think it would be great if we could somehow reveal stealthed characters we see to other characters, in our party for instance.

think it would be great if we could somehow reveal stealthed characters we see to other characters, in our party for instance.

AGAINST. Sometimes your party is really annoying and ya wanna get some rvenge that is not harming and ya...((USe ya imagination)) I think the stealthj thing is fine as it is.

I agree with Tofu and Cheese.

If one of your group notices the sneek and your character sees nothing still, it makes it hard to RP. "See he is right there by the door." "Wot? Ain't nothing there."

Having a friend point out the sneaker would be reasonable, albeit possibly not a workable mechanics change. Perhaps we need the colored powder the goblins throw around in HoU. Just throw some Puke Yellow powder on a Sneak and everyone can see 'em. No damage done.

But it wont happen for reasons stated above that sneaking is semi-magical and therefore even if one who has keen eyes or keen hearing can spot him,it doesn't mean that the others in his party can see the slight difference in contrast across the rocks that indicates a goblin hiding.

He can say- I saw something move over there. -Then people have a natural response: "Ye crazy..." or "What?!"

Having a friend point out the sneaker would be reasonable, albeit possibly not a workable mechanics change. Perhaps we need the colored powder the goblins throw around in HoU. Just throw some Puke Yellow powder on a Sneak and everyone can see 'em. No damage done.

Awesome idea, can you script a cloud item to give -10 H/MS for 1d6 rounds? That would be so much fun, tossing chalk bombs around speculatively.

5 star idea.

scrappayeti

Having a friend point out the sneaker would be reasonable, albeit possibly not a workable mechanics change. Perhaps we need the colored powder the goblins throw around in HoU. Just throw some Puke Yellow powder on a Sneak and everyone can see 'em. No damage done.

Awesome idea, can you script a cloud item to give -10 H/MS for 1d6 rounds? That would be so much fun, tossing chalk bombs around speculatively.

5 star idea.

So you make a cloud in the air and suddenly you can see through it?

Just be sure to hold light around, I think it would do the trick.

I think scrappayeti meant a throwing weapon that explodes in the area, spraying people with whatever. Not a smoke bomb. I guess the cloud of it would only be there for a few seconds after the initital explosion, rather than being a sustained cloud.

That sounds pretty powerful.

I DISAPPROVE.

It hardly seems powerful.

In DnD, adventurers carry bags of flour to notice invisible creatures. It use to be a standard in 2nd edition.

1) Weapons 2) Armor 3) Rations 4) Ten Foot Poll 5) Bag of Flour

You bought all those, typically in that order.

Expect it to cancel invisibility as well.

Also, I don't think how it would lower MS, and -10 hide, seems too much.

Don't forget that magic is what makes most as hidden as they are as well as they don't get to roll 1d20 when they hide.

(It's spot + 1d20 vs hide and listen +1d20 vs MS)

Certainly disapprove.

Caltrops anyone?

Also, there should be a flashpot that gives spot/listen -10 each as well then. Maybe even temporary daze or blindness, at least that would let sneaks have some counter when the smoke grenades fall all around him.

I don't see the need for cheap/inexpensive items that would unbalance the game.

Everything to currently "help" detect sneaks/invisibility is usually very high end equipment which is rare and expensive 1 use items.

The important of chip and useful items to help detecting sneaks, is to help those who rather not invest the few skill points in a cross class skills or even class skills.

I learned the importance of detecting sneaks and there few characters of mine that cannot listen/spot.

If there is one like that, I just understand it's flaws and accept them.

Why all the hate on rogues? :(

Give 'em a break, its damn hard to remain hidden.

Chalk bombs? You cover a rogue who's in dark material with a light substance, as well as his surroundings. Now you have the same rogue, but with improved camflauge since he's the same color as everything else! :roll:

Against invisible things, that makes sense, but not for people who are sneakin' about.

How about a one that does not emit a cloud but rather just a spot such as water balloon.

Therefore the color bombs must still be thrown at a target and must hit the target.

Someone who doesn't see a sneak cannot throw one and hope to hit the side of the cavern.

It would have to be that someone, who can see, must attempt to hit the target with the color bomb. A good sneak would not necessarily be easy to hit though. Then it would not be too powerful as at least one person must be able to detect the hidden.

That or throw the powder on the ground around your camp area and any sneak who gets too close would make "foot prints" and be seen. The sneak would have to walk close enough to cause this to happen. A sneak with augmented hearing could stay back and still hear a conversation. Caltrops is another possibility but would not always make IG sense to use.

... or A paint trap. You walk into my house and the bucket of paint falls on you and you are marked. Only falls on a lock pick not by entry by key.

-------- We don't hate rogues. We love them so much we want to see them more often.

MadCaddies Why all the hate on rogues? :(

Give 'em a break, its damn hard to remain hidden.

Cause its not.

You may have a seriously disturbing love affair with rogues, but well...it is sad to say that rogues are one of the more abused classes.

It is all things said, far simpler to find +hide/ms items than +spot/listen. I have a level 2 ranger with +20 Hide/MS through items and inherent abilities.

That's relatively sick. Granted, the idea of flour is for invisible critters. I'm still all for this. As it is a standard pen and paper trick, and is not a

Mort Wrote

I don't see the need for cheap/inexpensive items that would unbalance the game.

Since, as the facts demonstrate--it was part of the "balance" of an already unbalanced game for a long time. Invisibility was not meant to be an ability that gave people near perfect ability to hide, avoid foes etc.

Thats why EfU already has triggers that dispel invisibility in certain areas. Although, I've often mentioned that they go too far in being undetectable triggers. Likewise, the AI was changed to reduce the power of invisibility. However, little was done for players facing this already out of whack ability since there is a lack of mundane counters to invisibility such as exist in pen and paper.

As for invisibility, if players cannot hear invisible from distance, why not rolling for it, and putting in the log window: "You hear wierd noises from around you" Based on listen check you could even know where it's coming from etc.

As for hiding, rogues are good hiders but I've already seen people able see almost any rogue IG if not all. It depends on your build.

Some characters spend effort on being pwn, some spend effort of being able to avoid pwning characters.

Don't ruin it because they do it good.

I don't agree. I think hide and move silently works fine as it currently does. There are plenty of deterrents. The easiest way is to put points into spot and listen or multi-classing to help with that. You can also purchase potions of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance which give you +10 to both spot and listen.

Also, I'm not certain but bards may be able to craft potions of Amplify which gives +20 listen. If not it would be nice if such a potion could be made craftable as long as it was priced appropriately to Clairaudience/Clairvoyance.

The only way for MOST characters not to be spotted is to have a hide and move silently above 20 and that takes a character who has dedicated themselves to being the stealthy type. Spotting them is supposed to be hard, and I don't think they should be gimped because people don't want to spend skill points on spot and listen, multi-classing or buy potions.

Meldread I don't think they should be gimped because people don't want to spend skill points on spot and listen, multi-classing or buy potions.

Just a few comments on that: - spend skill points on "spot": only two classes have spot (rogues and rangers according to NWN manual), which means all others must get to lvl 10 before putting 5 slots on that skill... :( - multiclass is not (in my opinion) just to get facilities from each class, but an rp choice reflecting character's life, 8) - as for potions and spells, you're quite right. :lol:

I just had the fealing it was overused... but i'm happy to see all these reactions ! it's always fun to read ! :D

SnowJewel - spend skill points on "spot": only two classes have spot (rogues and rangers according to NWN manual), which means all others must get to lvl 10 before putting 5 slots on that skill... :(

SnowJewel

Just a few comments on that: - spend skill points on "spot": only two classes have spot (rogues and rangers according to NWN manual), which means all others must get to lvl 10 before putting 5 slots on that skill... :(

At lvl 1 you can get up to 2 skills invested, at lvl 8 you reach to 5.

Wisdom gives you bonus too. Monks get Listen skill, which helps none the less.

SnowJewel

- multiclass is not (in my opinion) just to get facilities from each class, but an rp choice reflecting character's life, 8)

Yes, but if one character has not specially good eyes, don't expect it to see an especially good sneaker.

But it's good that you suggest! :) Keep an open mind and think of more suggestions, I think it's always good. I try and keep an open mind myself.

I'm not too big a fan of the stealth ability in EFU, but theres an easy way to stop players from overusing it unnessucerilly. Just keep it IC, if someone keeps sneaking up behind you character, turn around and punch them. If you don't want to be punched they won't sneak around you.

LOL, :D

i'll do that ! ... when i play a warrior.... :twisted:

My poor little Lys would likely get killed in the counterattack... :cry:

Just use choking powder like everyone else.

The silly thing is if a stealthy individual does his job correctly, you'd never know he was there. If you spot someone following you in stealth, just set them to hostile, spin around and whack them. Then demand to know why they are following you after you've given the proper beat down.

Such actions are justified, considering that our characters live in the Underdark and assassinations happen on a near daily occurrence.

As for multi-classing... almost anyone can justify multiclassing as a Rogue.

...many serve as scouts, spies, investigators, diplomats, and simple thugs. Rogues are versatile, adaptable, and skilled at getting what others don't want them to get.

Non-PrC classes that get listen as a class skill: Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue

Non-PrC classes that get spot as a class skill: Ranger, Rogue

Also, don't forget that most players are walking around in detect mode which helps find stealthy characters as well.

There are an insane amount of cheap ways to discover a sneak that I don't particularly want to get into on this thread. Suffice to say, sneaking is much more difficult than spotting and hearing on this server.

I eat tofu and cheese I think it would be great if we could somehow reveal stealthed characters we see to other characters, in our party for instance.

This already happens.

I don't know what all these people are talking about, saying hide and MS are too powerful. EVERYONE sees Jasmal, even though she has 17 hide and 15 MS. It's rather frustrating, 'cause NPCs tend to be oblivious, but PCs on the other hand...

Meldread Also, don't forget that most players are walking around in detect mode which helps find stealthy characters as well.

I think I read somewhere that detect mode only makes you use full stealth. Listen and spot are used always by their maximum, and can be changed on thing like, if the sneaker is in front of you or not, standing or moving, if you stand or move, etc.

I'm not a hundred percent sure, so I'd advice to check.

I see people boosting their 30+'s ability-scores in Hide and Move Silently. They just use every bit of equipement they can find, which is by far more than Spot/ Listen. I still think the balance is of, since even if through some freak miracle you do spot someone and attack them, they'll just walk around the corner and stealth again. Luck once, okay. Twice though, not going to happen. Just Wtfumberhulk them. <3 Caddies.

Coldburn I see people boosting their 30+'s ability-scores in Hide and Move Silently. They just use every bit of equipement they can find, which is by far more than Spot/ Listen. I still think the balance is of, since even if through some freak miracle you do spot someone and attack them, they'll just walk around the corner and stealth again. Luck once, okay. Twice though, not going to happen. Just Wtfumberhulk them. <3 Caddies.

As far as I know, to do it, you must use magic, there is no way to do it otherwise. Magic like camouflage means it's logic they are extremely hard to spot.

It was suggested that spells like true seeing help to spot, but I say, these magics are not tricking your mind, but rather change the appearance of those who cast them (Help them blend in the area).

I say, yes, it pwns to be able to sneak like that, but also, don't forget that in order to do so you must have a patron to grant it to you, and that's the balance of things.

Coldburn Just Wtfumberhulk them. <3 Caddies.

What does that mean:?:

Some data points:

1.) No class that has wisdom as a primary attribute gets spot/listen as a class skill. All classes that use dex as a primary attribute get hide/move silently as a class skill.

2.) Small characters get a large bonus to hide. No characters get a large bonus to spot.

3.) Spot and Listen are only useful against people with hide/move silently. Hide/Move Silently are useful against almost everybody.

4.) There are far more hide/move silently items, available in different body slots, than Spot/Listen items.

In the end, I come down like this:

When you have a long period of time to attempt to detect somebody who is hidden, spot and listen are fairly balanced with hide/MS on EFU.

When you only have 1-5 rounds to detect somebody, as is the case with corner-sneaking, hide/MS is hideously overpowered on EFU. Rogues who want to disappear should carry invis potions.

-Cross

In the movies we already seen people running away into a dark ally, the chaser runs after him.

And then when he comes into the ally, the sneaker can't be found. At times the chaser finds the sneaker at times he gets away.

If a sneaker choses to run away, he risks with minuses to hide and ms, while a chaser can drink illumination potion and search around (no need to detect more, spot/listen applied always) and see if someone moves or stands.

In all of these discussions, the impetus is apparently on the spotter:

Spend your skill points on the two useless skills.

Having spent those skill points on skills which are only useful in this situation, now be forced to augment those skills with expensive expendables to have a chance.

...why is the person who wishes to disappear into thin air when his pursuer is 3 feet behind him not asked to use expendables (Invis Potion + Hide is just fine)?

-Cross

Just my opinion, but it feels balanced as it is..of course playing a rogue goblin whose very existance requires he be able to out sneak just about everything,..I may be a bit biased, that said, most sneaky types wont last long toe to toe with much of anything, let alone a of a pure fighter or even a potent caster for more then a round or two..if you have focused on sneaking, you consequently have to rely on it to get away, as you did not pour pts or feats into the combat areas..so it seems fair, as most things are on the server. Again, just my opinion.

I disagree with spot and listen being useless skills since they are also used for other purposes besides spotting sneaked characters.

Oroborous

MadCaddies Why all the hate on rogues? :(

Give 'em a break, its damn hard to remain hidden.

Cause its not.

My seriously disturbing love affair with rogues aside:

Yeah, it is.

As I'm sure you know, the spotter gets a chance every six seconds to catch a glimpse of or hear the sneaky character. I'm unsure how your level two ranger has 20+ Hide and MS, but besides the fact that Rangers are singlehandedly the stealthiest class in EFU and you're obviously talking about your stealth adjustment in wilderness areas, I'd hazard that your character is decked out in special stealthy equipment, such as that that can be bought at the ranger-only shop.

For the common rogue (whom I was referring to) in Sanctuary, even on relatively high levels, all the right feats and some nifty gear, getting a Hide/MS score over the 20s is certainly a challenge. Moreover, the availability of potions and wands which give very large bonuses to Spot/Listen, as well as equipment that does the same, is pretty good. Added to that is the fact that every round the opponent gets a d20 roll -plus both- Spot and Listen opposed to your Hide/MS modifier alone, its logical to conclude that it is indeed damn hard to remain hidden from PCs. Trying to track them/spy on them for extended periods? Even harder.

Any character with money, a bit of Wisdom, and the desire to be wary of stealthy foes (skill point investment) will have no hard time achieving it. The impetus is indeed on the spotter; don't like being spied upon? Do something about it!

Crosswind In all of these discussions, the impetus is apparently on the spotter:

Spend your skill points on the two useless skills.

Having spent those skill points on skills which are only useful in this situation, now be forced to augment those skills with expensive expendables to have a chance.

...why is the person who wishes to disappear into thin air when his pursuer is 3 feet behind him not asked to use expendables (Invis Potion + Hide is just fine)?

-Cross

I can only say, I agree with the Hate Elemental.

Its far too easy to have a level 4 or 5 rogue/monk with +20 in these stats. My level 10 wizard/fighter who did carry wands of clairvoyance, wore several items to boost spot and listen both still could barely get--even taking the skills to max, only got to the upper single digit. With the use of a spell I could boost to double digits, with the use of a spell of slightly lower level--a rogue can easily boost into the 30s or 40s.

If the idea here is that rogues *should* be able to get these skills 20 points higher than anyone could possibly get their spot or listen-I see an imbalance. Rangers can hide better than rogues outside cities certainly, but the items that boost hide/move silently are still easy to come across compared to spot/listen.

There are a number of characters with +30 to hide/ms (+/- 3 points), but I sincerely doubt there are many characters that have spot/listen higher than 10. Mostly because of the imbalance of spot/listen items.

Kale, I apologize for forgetting the two instances outside of finding stealthed characters where Spot or Listen is useful.

Tracking, if you are a ranger.

Rolling it when a DM tells you to.

I'm not sure those have a huge impact on the discussion, however.

-Cross

Here's a bit of statistics.

With 0listen/0spot,

I use one hearing pot, cast clairvoyance on myself. I got a hearing of 35 and a spot of 15 for 5-20 round, depending on the level.

Let's remove the hearing, and do it simply with clairvoyance, 15spt/15listen.

A rogue that has 30Hide, 30MS is rare in my book. We will take that as an example.

so, since most people walk in detect mode, that's d20.

+ you get a slight bonus if you are standing still I recall, don't know how much that is, we will ignore it for now.

You get 1 chance to detect hide, 1 change to detect MS every round.

bare with that you need 15 or higher on a d20, that's 30%. For both skills, it comes to 30% x 2, hence you have 60% to detect a rogue with 30/30 every round..

However, every point of hide and ms above 30 reduces that by 10%.

But every point in listen and spot, increases it by 10%.

Even if you have a 5% to detect a rogue, which would be a listen of 16 i.e. clairvoyance +1 cross-class in listen, clairvoyance lasts 10 rounds, hence you still have 50% to detect a 50hide/36ms rogue during that 1 turn.

and with amplify and clairvoyance, you detect instantly any rogue with 35 or less of MS.

All the stats were done with 0 listen, 0 spot.

Mort nails it.

One potion of Camouflage starts to cut down on that potion of Clairvoyance.

Further, the "nail" misses that you don't use the clairvoyance unless you have a good reason to suspect you're being followed.

IE: Sneak is an active skill. Spot a passive ability.

You can use sneak whenever you want, but its going to cost you a few hundred gold to pop that potion.

Camouflage doesn't cut down on it too much, because it's only a bonus to Hide.

There's always Amplify too.

The point is, you can sneak for free folks.

You're all countering that if you want to spend 150+ a pop for the right potions you can get a good shot at catching a sneak.

While all ignoring that:

1) You have to know a sneak is there to make the potion useful, otherwise you're just blowing 150 gold periodically because you're paranoid.

2) You can find +sneak gear all over and very readily, but these potions you mention are neither cheap nor readily available further curtailing their use.

3) All of which is again making it clear that sneak skills are vastly more useful than any of their counters which makes the skill rather extremely good. And it is already a very good skill, the pvp applications not even considered.

If hiding is so unbalanced, as some say, and so good, it only leads to the conclusion having the negating skills - Spot and Listen are highly important too!

So the better hiding is, the importance of spot/listen grows, making it more useful then one would think.

On one hand you say:

Crosswind Spend your skill points on the two useless skills.

On the other you say:

Crosswind

When you only have 1-5 rounds to detect somebody, as is the case with corner-sneaking, hide/MS is hideously overpowered on EFU.

I think that if spot and listen are your only means (Aside from oil grenades, caltrops etc.) to detect someone sneaking, it seems like worth it!

Not to mention it's importance in DM quests where spot helped me find cool stuff. I was the only one who spent skills on that enough (I think) to find some tattoo or so.

Spot and listen are most useful skills that I saw!

Actually, Alogen, what happens is this: Hide and Move Silently are so high on most people who rely on them that the difference in chance to detect (in a small number of attempts) between high Spot/Listen and Low/Spot listen is rather small, because both high spot/listen and low spot/listen have very low chances of detecting high hide, for the reasons previously stated.

Anyhow, I'm getting a bit tired of explaining what should be pretty obvious, based on the data. And if math isn't your thing, ask: How many people do you know who put lots of ranks in spot/listen? How many people do you know who put lots of ranks in hide/ms?

Thought so. It's economics - follow the point allocation, and you'll find the too-powerful skill.

-Cross

Of course, all in all--as pathetic as the ratio of spot vs hide items in the module the only real draw back to sneaking is people abusing it with the corner sneak strategy.

I can say that when I've invested a character with nearly 10 points in spot and someone can still use that exploit to avoid me-I get angry.

When I watch a guy abuse corner stealthing to wipe out an entire party, I get furious.

When I watch a guy use corner stealthing to attack people over and over again and entirely abuse sneak attacks, I get down right hell fire pissed.

So as long as the blatant, unfair, over abused exploit remains illegal--its relatively fair. Hide and move silent will remain extremely power skills which are countered only by the expenditure of large quantities of gold on potions. However, this imbalance is almost tolerable if you don't have to suck a 150 gold potion only to have someone corner sneak and still avoid your attacks.

Crosswind, I -always- spent skills in spot/listen. If I don't do it, I am aware sneaks would pass right under my nose, and accept it.

I wanted to apologize, though. I searched it a lot and finally found that someone said (not sure how -he- knows about it, though), that detect mode do gives you some bonus or so. As said here.

There are three general levels of stealth. Poor stealth - of crossclassing. Moderate stealth - of rogues. Awesome stealth - of rangers.

(Not sure where to place druids, but it's somewhere between rogues and rangers, toward rangers)

Taking down the stealthing would harm rogues first. (Taking up the spot/listen will do the same)

Rogues are not as good with hiding and normally, without wands of camouflage or potions, they can barely hide from spiders. So their only chance is hiding from "citydwellers" - PCs

But now you want to take from them that skill too.

I have to disagree there, alogen. Anyone can sneak pretty well, independantely of the class. They just have to put some effort, and so do rangers.

Proof: Isaac. If you don't know him, it's because he was well hidden...

I do know him, just never RPed with him >_>

Fighters fight, sneakers sneak. To fight a fighter, you spend money on potions. To fight a rogue, you often only need that 150 gold to see them before you wtfpwndoze them and their low AC/HP.

Oroborous Hide and move silent will remain extremely power skills which are countered only by the expenditure of large quantities of gold on potions. However, this imbalance is almost tolerable if you don't have to suck a 150 gold potion only to have someone corner sneak and still avoid your attacks.

Any classes has those power skills- don't see why the overpowering of hide/ms is solely one-way.

Mages with spell focus and incredibly high DCs. Fighters with tons of feats, giving them many opportunity to survive in a variety of situation due to -knockdown, disarm, expertise.. it goes on...

Not much you can do either to safeguard from a high DC PhK... especially for rogues, thats usually instant-death.

Any classes has its own disadvantage and advantage, the corner sneak exploit was addressed.

+

The fact that once you spot a sneak, his screen doesn't go "alert, you have been spotted, run!" ; he has absolutely no idea, and you can just turn and hold person him due to his most likely extremely low will save as he used all his items slot on +h/ms equipment.

Yeah, its overpowered in some situations, but extremely useless in others.

Feeling like we're beating a dead horse.

It's not hard to get a decent spot/hide. It's like this.

If someone specializes in stealth, you should have to specialize in spot/listen, if all things are equal( such as not overly bright or dark).

If someone specializes in stealth, and you have 8 wisdom, and no ranks in spot or listen. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I guess stealth characters just own you.

Cross-classing is not the end of the world. If you don't like having sneaks walking circles around you, cross-class a little.

If someone specializes in stealth, and you have 8 wisdom, and no ranks in spot or listen. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I guess stealth characters just own you.

My exact feeling on the whole matter. Stealth simply isn't some absurdly powerful skill that is blatantly abused to the detriment of others. Stealth is an ability few class get; its a specialized skill. If you think its a dangerous, overly-powerful one that could possibly get your character killed, remedy it by not taking low Wisdom and actually putting some ranks into the relevant counterskills. The onus is entirely on the spotter, rather than the stealthy character.

MadCaddies

If someone specializes in stealth, and you have 8 wisdom, and no ranks in spot or listen. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I guess stealth characters just own you.

My exact feeling on the whole matter. Stealth simply isn't some absurdly powerful skill that is blatantly abused to the detriment of others. Stealth is an ability few class get; its a specialized skill. If you think its a dangerous, overly-powerful one that could possibly get your character killed, remedy it by not taking low Wisdom and actually putting some ranks into the relevant counterskills. The onus is entirely on the spotter, rather than the stealthy character.

EXCEPT

That's not the case.

I had a character with 12 Wisdom, 7 Spot (Cross-class skill), Wands of Clairvoyance (Which I just used randomly when I wanted to make sure I was alone-problem being its not like using a potion of Bull's Strength when you know you're fighting a fighter-when fighting a rogue-he's got that bonus of being hidden, so you can't prepare), and who scrounged and scrounged to find some piddling +1 spot items. He still often couldn't spot sneaks with +20 hide. The point of the character was that he'd be able to spot sneaks--but because spot is cross class, rogues (yes rogues, not rangers even) could find items that boosted stealth so much, he rarely spotted them. The sole exception was when they tried to hide in a brightly lit room; at least there I always saw them.

He also had no chance whatsoever when they took to using exploitive corner stealthing.

I'd like to hear opinions more from people who don't play rogues. If you play a rogue, of course you think the points you invested in Sneak are well used. If you've played a character that invested in Spot, you will likely share the sentiment that you wasted these points because rogues can easily get their skill +20 over yours, even if you're focusing just as hard (due to cross class issues and rarity of +spot items).

The problem is not precisely a rogues' sneaking quite as much as the advantages rogues have sneaking on a server where the counter to Sneak is pretty flimsy and items to boost the counter are statistically underpowered and rare compared to the inverse.

*whaps the horse a few times with a club*

I think it is fairly obvious at this point, that unless you corner-sneak, stealth isn't any less or more powerful than any other skill or feat. The combinations of possible skills and feats aren't quite endless, but there are a lot of nice combos out there that are very effective.

To me, stealth is most useful in the Underdark, looking at things you weren't supposed to see...

Oroborous

MadCaddies

If someone specializes in stealth, and you have 8 wisdom, and no ranks in spot or listen. You have nobody to blame but yourself. I guess stealth characters just own you.

My exact feeling on the whole matter. Stealth simply isn't some absurdly powerful skill that is blatantly abused to the detriment of others. Stealth is an ability few class get; its a specialized skill. If you think its a dangerous, overly-powerful one that could possibly get your character killed, remedy it by not taking low Wisdom and actually putting some ranks into the relevant counterskills. The onus is entirely on the spotter, rather than the stealthy character.

EXCEPT

That's not the case.

I had a character with 12 Wisdom, 7 Spot (Cross-class skill), Wands of Clairvoyance (Which I just used randomly when I wanted to make sure I was alone-problem being its not like using a potion of Bull's Strength when you know you're fighting a fighter-when fighting a rogue-he's got that bonus of being hidden, so you can't prepare), and who scrounged and scrounged to find some piddling +1 spot items. He still often couldn't spot sneaks with +20 hide. The point of the character was that he'd be able to spot sneaks--but because spot is cross class, rogues (yes rogues, not rangers even) could find items that boosted stealth so much, he rarely spotted them. The sole exception was when they tried to hide in a brightly lit room; at least there I always saw them.

He also had no chance whatsoever when they took to using exploitive corner stealthing.

Corner-sneaking to get attacks off has been agreed by the DM team to be an engine exploit. We're just debating a final definition before we publically announce it; its safe to say, though, that any character repeatedly breaking LOS to enter stealth to sneak attack will be penalised in some fashion.

That's that issue cleared up, and should be a moot point in much the same way you don't have to worry about transition abuse and other exploits we punish (well, obviously these still happen, but its certainly rare!).

Your character with 12 Wisdom, 7 Spot and a wand of Clairaudience/Clairvoydance will be used in an example about just how easy it is to actually spot a sneaky character:

Your character, A, wants to make sure he isn't being followed by a stealthy character, B. His modified 8 Spot is bumbed up by 15 to 23 when you use the wand, which lasts a goodly amount of time. He also has 16 Listen, assuming you didn't put any points into that either. Lets say the stealthy character has 30 Hide/MS, which I can assure you most stealthy characters do not come close to having.

So, A gets:

1d20+23 to beat B's 30 Hide...-every six seconds-, in addition to:

1d20+16 to beat B's 30 MS...-every six seconds-,

to reveal the creature.

Add to this listen bonuses when standing still, and hide penalties in lighted areas.

I'm not going to do the mathematical propability here; its simple enough to calculate.

Remaning hidden is hard. Tracking someone for any amount of time is harder. Getting close enough after tracking someone to a quiet place to attack/listen in on a conversation is harder yet. That's the -reason- there are way more Hide/MS items in the module; its intentional!

Yes, but my character was designed to catch and capture sneakers. He had good chances against "average Joe Rogue" and no chance whatsoever against characters designed to be stealthy.

He wasn't going to catch the guys designed to be sneaky, just the ones that had regular items/skills. Guys with all the sneak feats, the better sneak items, and the full range of sneak skills were going to be in the high 30s while my skills at max got to the low twenties. That's still an imbalance of 10 to 15 points which is quite a difference; even after I blew 100 gold pieces for the chance to spot someone.

Meanwhile, those rogues can walk a short distance away to drink a potion for 100 gold which gives them a +10 to hide: and let's them walk right back to continue spying on me now with a 20 to 25 point difference.

You can also find for example:

A few helms with +1 or +2 spot, an amulet with +1 spot, or a bow with a +1 spot. Find them all for a +4 spot.

Yet you can find rings, boots, cloaks, amulets, armor all with +2 to +3 hide. Find them all for a +10 hide.

Same roughly applies to listen/move silently.

Now, a DM has access to all the loot and could observe this better-but I'm basing this off of nearly a year and a half of playing on this server. You can quite easily find superior hide/ms items than spot items.

MadCaddies

So, A gets:

1d20+23 to beat B's 30 Hide...-every six seconds-, in addition to:

1d20+16 to beat B's 30 MS...-every six seconds-,

to reveal the creature.

People, don't teach me simple math as was tried before without actual math >_>:

in order for A to beat B: 8-20 means, 13/20 = 65% 15-20 means 6/20 = 30%

0.3 + 0.65 - 0.65*0.3 = 0.95 - 0.195 = 0.755

It meas he has a -big- chance to see such sneaker! about 75%!

And frankly people underestimate the light cantrip!

Using stealth as a way to maximize sneak attacks in a PvP encounter has been addressed. There are tons of hidden modifiers to stealth that clearly people are not aware of, this thread may be of use with that. On EfU, there are more +hide/ms items than there are +spot/listen - but I feel strongly that it is an appropriate balance. There are some quests, for instance, where better stealth detection stuff drops. Wands of amplify (+20 listen) are 600 gold. Other stealth detection techniques exist that I don't care to share here, except suffice to say that they do exist.

having played a very successful sneak as my first character on the server, I can say I know the in's and out's of it both from a stalkers side and the prey's side.

Even with creating a halfling ranger or rogue with 20 dex and Stealthy Feat (or skill focus in h or ms) at character creation (which gives you the highest h/ms DC of any class with 0 xp earned), it's not a life saving skill or 00b3r attack plan skill.

I played my rogue good. So good that I can't count the number of times parties relied on me to go back into an extremely hostile/party-wiped area to get bodies and equipment packs.

Anything with True Sight, See Invisibility, Amplify or a host of other skills/spells/etc, makes my mega-stealthy-rogue nothing more than a 4-foot-tall target with fancy clothes.

Add to this the fact that they have horrible Will and Fortitude saves and you've got a target that's got low hp and high suseptibility to disease, poison, death/hold/paralysis magic and knockdown and suddenly stealth becomes useless.

Hell, even if I AM stealthed and the assailant can't see me, I'm still affected by AoE and cone spells that they may launch inadvertantly in my direction.

Rogues have two things going for them to save their ass: stealth and sneak attack. Both are easily countered by either making your character see better or making it harder for me to hide AND by simply turning to face me in combat when I attack.

In summary, Hide and MS only seem like overpowered feats when they are used properly by skilled players. There have been a number of great assassin type characters that have utilized those skills in such cunning ways that it would indeed piss off anyone who has the items and skill points spent to counter them.

It is a matter of just making the most of what you have and believing that the DM's have tried to make it fair to the folks who seek out those who stealth.

Having reviewed carefully all the modifiers for sneaking skills, I'm rescinding my original arguments.