An ongoing debate goes on between (mostly) the old Beta-playerbase, and many of the newer players, about the current difficulty of Efu. To be honest, Efu doesn't give me the survival feel it used to have, which (though not necessarily bad) does tend to remove the feel of survivalist slaves. Now, I am not starting a new debate here, but I merely request the Seeker Crystal removed, which gives you back both hp + stats. It makes the game even more easy than normal. I confess I spam the crystal myself right now (you work with the tools you're given), yet I'd rather see it gone for more resource consuming with the players.

Whatever.

The crystal should regularly run out, and regularly need re-application of *spoiler* to re-energize it, if that is not the case then please make a bug report.

...the "survivalist" feeling appreciated by so many in the alpha days of the server when your level 3 character wielding a battered club would get crushed by a Greater Umberhulk Behemoth Guardian Warlord outside the Sanctuary gate has gone, to instead be replaced by level 5 characters daily performing moderately rewarding quests with as little as one or sometimes even -no- deaths...

Howland The crystal should regularly run out, and regularly need re-application of *spoiler* to re-energize it, if that is not the case then please make a bug report.

Arkov

...the "survivalist" feeling appreciated by so many in the alpha days of the server when your level 3 character wielding a battered club would get crushed by a Greater Umberhulk Behemoth Guardian Warlord outside the Sanctuary gate has gone, to instead be replaced by level 5 characters daily performing moderately rewarding quests with as little as one or sometimes even -no- deaths...

Time to up the spawns! Seriously, the mines are getting to easy, what happened to the days when ogre bandits would show? How about an Ancient Dire Deep lizard as well?

It is a well established fact that as a roleplaying game progresses the challenge level decreases all things remaining the same.

This is because characters begin to reach ever higher levels. Their gear continually improves. As more characters die, their gear gets taken by other people who thusly gain even more powerful items and perhaps distribute less powerful gear to more players. People learn how to survive, thus reaching higher levels more quickly--or with the aid of friends at higher levels.

Nothing short of a total server wipe will reduce the server back to the "survivalist" feel it had in the alpha days. That will need to go with a total rework of the module because even if we all started over as level 2 characters with 300 gold--we'd know where to go and where not to go to survive and thrive.

Halcyon yesterdays are gone. Removing a single crystal won't bring them back.

That said, I think constant orog invasions--drow invasions--chaos in the streets and Sanctuary hanging on an edge of existence somehow is not working or not coming across to most players. I don't think people really recognize that the city is in survival mode, most people survive by begging and eating rats (which isn't fun to roleplay--hence our characters survive by adventuring and killing drow--which 90% of Sanctuarians would run from screaming).

I'd ask instead, what needs to be done to demonstrate to the player base that Sanctuary can be wiped out in the blink of an eye? Other than wiping it out in a blink of an eye, which--I suppose I'd be for myself someday anyway.

Actuallt, without expanding too much on Oroborous' post, for it'll detract from the main purpose of the post, I think he is right. We might just need that little thread the city hangs by snapped, letting it plump into the dark abyss that is, well, the Underdark. That said, however, the status of the city does not reflect well on all PC players who continue to quest and own and loot themselves out.

Oroborous I'd ask instead, what needs to be done to demonstrate to the player base that Sanctuary can be wiped out in the blink of an eye? Other than wiping it out in a blink of an eye, which--I suppose I'd be for myself someday anyway.

True, but it would be a kick in the ass for all those who already invested a big amount of time and attention to their chars, factions and plots >_>

I'm a new player, and I tend to hover around Level 4. Usually when I reach Level 5, I get in over my head and get killed.

I would venture out of the city more often if invisibility potions were more available for exploring outside the gates. So far, I've only found two quests that have them (Crazy Jane for killing the boss and the very first delivery), so to me, the way to get more potions is to repeat that quest as often as I can.

I found another person of similar level to go exploring with me (we misunderstood where a certain quest area was supposed to be), and we went as far as the Blue Mushrooms. In the mines though, we were spotted by an earth elemental and later an umber hulk and had to run all the way back to the gates. We would have gone further, but we were spotted by a huge lizard.

It might be better if the rewards for venturing out of the city were better. Right now there are a lot of "safe" quests to be done inside, and they're the easiest way to get the money to buy potions to survive outside.

Whatever *spoiler* is, it would be nice if you could apply it to crystal outcroppings elsewhere temporarily. I'm not familiar with these forums, so I don't know if I gave anything else away above that should also be marked as a *spoiler*. If we couldn't spam the crystal, it would be sitting at the inn or wandering around the city with a countdown timer.

Adharmas, if you were only here for awhile, you will make it to the top, I for awhile, was such a newb that I ventured to Fort Mur WITHOUT A SINGLE HEALING POTION OR INVIS! In the end, I was totalled by a group of Quaggoths with a seeker by me trying to save me. But hey! I would like to see changes in the enviroment, like a volcano going off and umbers sticking about for awhile...

adharmas I'm a new player, and I tend to hover around Level 4. Usually when I reach Level 5, I get in over my head and get killed.

Sounds like myself a long time ago :)

adharmas It might be better if the rewards for venturing out of the city were better.

*cough*you have gained xxx experience for entering the area for the first time*cough*

You don't have to dwell in Sanctuary. There are some errands to be run outside the city. Keep looking. Not all quests are centered around Sanctuary.

After all, though, its still the Underdark. It has a reputation, and for a good reason. You don't go out there unprepared. You'd best not go out there alone. It ain't easy outside the city, for the sake of 'survivalist feeling'. It ain't easy in the city either, as it seems to be constantly under attack by some force. :)

Putting sentiment aside, I think what people may be noticing is that the lower level content is a lot easier than it used to be. The truth is, we're not aiming for the survival feeling you might get (for instance) on a zombie-survival server where you have to hide in abandoned houses and hoard rusty daggers. We're aiming for a server where you can advance and reach a point where you're roleplaying a very tough, dangerous sort of character who can certainly hold his own -- but still always be challenged.

It is completely deliberate that the low levels be easy and manageable for pretty much everyone. But if you're still searching for challenges, I assure you they are out there and appropriately rewarding. There are some higher level quests out there that I'm sure you're not familiar with and that will be quite challenging and tough.

As for the feeling of the town itself, I'd say we've done a pretty good job of reflecting the consequences of various raids and other events. Lower Sanctuary right now is pure anarchy right now (much more intense in that way than it ever was in alpha), and although the streets of Upper are mostly safe from monsters that's always subject to change due to IC events.

As for the Underdark, there are certainly places that are dangerous for anyone. But I'm always interested in specific suggestions to make the server more fun -- one thing, for instance, I'm trying to do is come up with more Underdark wilderness dangers and challenges beyond just monsters.

About the Seekers crystal, the Seekers keep huge stores of the essense and regularly recharge the crystal!

Well for those who want to say the EFU does not have a survival feel i suggest trying to pick a fight with a pit fiend :P

Which Snorri did with some others, bad idea :oops:

Howland

As for the feeling of the town itself, I'd say we've done a pretty good job of reflecting the consequences of various raids and other events. Lower Sanctuary right now is pure anarchy right now (much more intense in that way than it ever was in alpha), and although the streets of Upper are mostly safe from monsters that's always subject to change due to IC events.

I think more could be done there for sure. I've always felt Lower and Sewer Town just are not as well developed as Upper.

as a druid, i find it safer for myself to be OUTSIDE Sanctuary.

Calavera as a druid, i find it safer for myself to be OUTSIDE Sanctuary.

Oroborous I'd ask instead, what needs to be done to demonstrate to the player base that Sanctuary can be wiped out in the blink of an eye? Other than wiping it out in a blink of an eye, which--I suppose I'd be for myself someday anyway.

We were debating doing just that after a certain group of characters started actively attacking the illithid in the sand caverns!

Arkov/Howland ...the "survivalist" feeling appreciated by so many in the alpha days of the server when your level 3 character wielding a battered club would get crushed by a Greater Umberhulk Behemoth Guardian Warlord outside the Sanctuary gate has gone

Many a true word said in jest :P

I disagree with the original post. The average level of the server is, was, and always probably will be such that any single monster from the plethora of creatures in the underdark will always pose a threat. Anyone wandering alone in the underdark will find themself in serious trouble before long.

Sanctuary is on a knife-edge at all times. If it feels 'safe', then that's simply because of the familarity that you now have with the setting - the lack of light, the strange, otherworldly population have simply become too commonplace for you to really consider them ominous anymore.

I think the setting in certain places is more frightening and atmospheric than it was at the beginning, definitely. I've seen every version, and things seem to get more malevolent and real with every update. The playerbase's increased skill gets met by new monsters every day.

So I disagree. The setting's no different, though it's never been hard to simply survive, if you know what you're doing! Arbitrary death is the only alternative, and who wants that...!?

I think more could be done there for sure. I've always felt Lower and Sewer Town just are not as well developed as Upper.

Well, for what it's worth I strongly disagree.

I also strongly disagree! It just usually takes a bit more IC digging to learn all about Lower and Sewertown.

This "feeling" is also extremely dependant on how long you have been playing EfU and how much you challenge yourself. Not only is excellent knowledge of mechanics and effective use of consumables paramount, but your ooc knowledge of quests and the like. No one is going to suggest on a regular basis to do a quest they are likely to die in if it seems like a pointless ooc death.

If people want to scrape through by the skin of their teeth then there is certainly the opportunity to do so!

Character concept also plays a large part in this. Creating a character that is more likely to have difficulty surviving (because of a weak or inbalanced build) or who will put themselves in challenging situations because of the way they are roleplayed - will greatly alter the feel of survival.

I think people underestimate the amount of ooc mechanics and server knowledge they acquire over the time they play here. In addition I think less metagamey approaches to quests is in order. People constantly stand around saying things like: "we need another warrior", "make sure you prepare x spells" etc. When they would have NO knowledge of what to expect from having a dialogue with the quest giver.

I suggest people actually read the conversations with the quest givers before taking the quest/making a sending about it and take note of exactly how much they know. If it means taking the quest, and -THEN- organising tactics, and even preparing spells after you have some IC knowledge of what to expect!

Going on a quest oocly knowing that you are unprepared for what is going to be there adds to the challenge. Last night, doing Boggs with an alt, I knew I had inadequate armor as a 10 dex cleric who uses summons to be saying I could act as meat shield for a mage. It was Boggs! But that fact made me apprehensive about the quest for a short while.

Metro_Pack I also strongly disagree! It just usually takes a bit more IC digging to learn all about Lower and Sewertown.

Then I need to rephrase.

They are very well developed I'm sure. Rather, the way in which they are developed is so deeply buried that I expect 99% of players aren't really aware of what's going on.

I've probably dug more than most in the early days with Mandarin. Lower and Sewertown lack some of the sparkle of intrigue you find in Upper. Upper has various power blocs jockeying for control and power. That is much more lacking in the lower two settlements-a point I've argued for months if not a year now.

I was very thrilled back when it looked like "lower factions" were going to emerge from the wreckage of the Tigereyes, but didn't see it happen. Lower is suppose to be in absolute chaos, but other than a charity and a bar and maybe some goblins--whose jockeying for power? The gangs are destroyed, etc etc.

I readily admit the specifics of what is happening is certainly lost on me, but I still maintain that these groups need to be pulled out of the darkest abyss of the background story and moved more into the living breathing, wider affect-having part of the story.

I could probably do a quiz and demonstrate my point with a few simple questions.

Starting with easy things like:

1) Why does Sewertown exist? 2) What does its residents really want, or seem to want? 3) Why is Lower such a mess? 4) Who is most likely to try to take control of Lower? Why?

And I'm willing to hazard that if you enter the server with 50 people logged in, less than 5 would even start to be able to answer those four questions.

Basically, I just don't think as much is portrayed to the players as the DMs see or think is portrayed. There is a rule of thumb that says if you think someone knows 90% of what is going on in a company, then they probably really know 10%. That also applies to any game world with more than four players.

I think that the vast majority of players find the server suitable in its survival feeling, and I think that the only players who ever complain about this are people who have focused entirely on powergaming up and rocking out quests, and then find that they have no challenges or purpose once they've done so. Or, they're envious of all the more successful characters they see, and want to knock the ratios of level/loot down a bit.

Any talk about trying to make Sanctuary even more dangerous, insecure, and at risk of being destroyed I also find really silly. The server is supposed to be dangerous and all, but when you try to make it so hardcore and challenging that you're constantly at the risk of being slaughtered, a lot of players will be turned off. There are areas to go to where high challenge exists, and there's a city to stay in when you want to be relatively safe. Trying to further present Sanctuary as being in danger of imminent annihilation doesn't really come with any appeal or value.

Also, of course a lot of players are in the dark about Lower/Sewer Town. The politics and machinations of those settlements are meant to be below the radar. Some PCs just don't know, or care, enough to get involved or figure out some of what's going on with the two. I think you'll find, however, that tons of PCs have been involved with both-probably more than you realize. They aren't obvious faction conflicts like Upper at this point in time, but some aren't meant to be, and other more patent conflicts will take time to emerge again.

I'm really comfortable with how dangerous things are at the moment.

I think it has less to do with the Server itself, and more to do with how players are reacting to the dangerous nature of the Underdark and the catastrophic things happening to the city.

If you have a problem with survival Play a goblin/hobgoblin/drow/dureguar. Honestly Ive played my hob for about a week now and so far two people beat him up and one is threatening him to pay gold not to get killed. Honestly when its legal for people to kill you Then Youll get the survival feeling Wont you?

I also think the Dms should do some involvement to make lower a very dangerouse/full of chaose kind of place.

1Like have gangster npcs robing players/beating/making death threats. 2 Have outside forces try to attack the lower gates. like bands of troll/drow/ogres/other kinds of beasts. 3 attack lower from within with gangster/psychopaths/cultists. Chosen. Or another idea a bunch of rats storm out of the rat barickade and lower is filled with a bunch of vermin attacking. Or another attack lower within/Make a bunch of well armed ilithid thralls just start attacking and have the players wondering what the hell is going on. 4 Angry adventurers from upper just decide to attack lower cause there pissed off at them. /plenty of people from upper are sick of people from lower im sure plenty of vigilantees from upper would feel like beating down the rebels they are.

I also think the Dms should do some involvement to make lower a very dangerouse/full of chaose kind of place.

Expounding on this:

Currently, DMs aside, it's no small matter for even a level 2 to just drop down into lower for whatever they feel they need and not fear anything. Need gear from Mikelson (sp), a free bed in the beacon, thrash some baddies in dude's quest...

I'm one of those that can't answer Oroborous's questions and I have no intention of seeking those answers OOCly. OOCly however, I get a sense that Lower is supposed to be dangerous... ICly, my character hasn't seen or heard anything that makes her think there is anything she needs to be worried about... it just feels like skid row.

No PCs have IC told her to look out for things down there, no NPCs or PCs have done anything to make her think she needs to fear for her safety when she travels past the animatrons.

Just my observations.

In regard to the talk about lower, I do think that at this moment it feels safer, but it has a lot to do with the PC lower players.

A long time ago now I created my first character Bodoc. On his first day in sanctuary he decided to deliver some spices to lower. However he quickly bumped into a large group of Tigre eyes, after some rp and Bodoc thinking to be funny they chased him all over lower to beat him up and kick him back up the stairs.

And as long as the tigre eyes where around Bodoc sure thought twice about walking around lower openly.

An other character of mine got death threats from the golden merc's stating he would be killed if he ever entered lower, which resulted in me needing a lot of invis potions and disguises.

A long story short in lower for me it was the pc gangs/groups that brought me a survival feel and even got me scared at times, I never had the same feeling from the npc gangs that have been around.

But I'm sure a new group will form in lower sooner or later to bring back the danger feel of entering lower.

It's really up to the Players to make a difference and 'increase' the survival feeling. There's only so much a DM can do, and currently, they did more than one should expect from a DM.

The players themselves have to make the first move before the DMs are about to make dramatic changes. The current rulers of [X-location] aren't going to take over Lower, without PCs putting time and involvement into it.

In the past, when the Tigereyes were cast out and killed, a lot of people tried to claim leadership over Lower with their little gangs. In the end, one group managed to establish a fairly steady group of mercenaries, who were later killed in other IC events, again led by PCs.

I agree Lower is, has been, and should remain to be a darker place in Sanctuary, where criminals can find shelter. If you have a great idea to enhance the survivalist feeling, the DMs won't hold you back. It's almost entirely all about convincing PC's within factions, the NPCs will usually follow.

As for the Underdark- I walk the trusted road from Sanctuary to Mur on daily basis, I admit; however I find myself in devastating positions often enough. But don't try to tell me either one of you walks through the Spire (the bad side) Ysinode, Traensyr or the Beholder city without at least holding your heart. Running (as opposed to walking) through those places is something none of you will ever do, unless being chased down, because you deep down know it will get you killed.

As for quests; I agree the lower level quests are slightly easy. But so-what? No one wants to walk around at L2, 3 or 4 all the time. And trust me, when you reach 6/7/+ you'll notice every quest demands a balanced party. And even with a good buffer, two fine full-plate warriors and a Rogue to deal with traps, you'll find rushing in carelessly gets you killed. Perhaps not the first time, or the second, but at some point you'll run into death's clutches if you don't listen to your common sense and play with absolute care.

I have plenty of survival moment to reminisce. I also have plenty of "We kick ass moments" too.

However, here is some ideas to make things more nasty than don't involve spawns: The traps that create holes that Thrawn has been using that leads you to caverns or tunnels, "lets go kill trogs now turns to Timmy has fallen in the well.", traps like that make you fall in a spawnless area of the spider cave, or other sort-of lairs you wouldnt go in.. except for the need to overcome.

The chance to get lost: i.e. invisible transition that brings you to a set of areas called: Underdark : Unknown tunnels , each of these area has the same name, and it would be randomized transition, i.e. transition you cant click on that port you randomly to 1:exit somewhere in the "known" underdark, or 2-20 keep wandering in the "unknown" tunnels-

These could lead to areas where there are secret things, etc. but randomization, not knowing whether you will end up farther away from home in the end greatly enhanced survival feel and doesnt really require anything.

Of course, that is just one idea- how to make feasible and all, I dont really know for a party etc. but I'm just throwing it in there.

I've got a script for random tunnels and passages somewhere. Its not too hard to set up, with an added check making druids and rangers less likely to be lost.

Lower -is- a dangerous place. I've seen a man getting killed in the middle of the street. I haven't seen many guards past the area between Upper and Lower. The feeling I get in Lower can't match the feeling at Traensyr Gates, but I'm expecting to get robbed every time I go there. Hells, why am I not getting robbed?

I can honestly say, I did not have this impression of Lower. I fear the mines many times more than I do any of the Lower areas.

On that note, I don't expect the DMs to do anything more about this, and I wouldn't really know what they'd do. I think we just need some (more?) PC gangs on the loose.

Hrugs trying to form a Pc gang of goblins.

A problem with Lower, as far as I can establish, has been the lack of any group to fill the void the Tigereyes left. (Bear with me, as this all happened before my time.) There are plenty of interesting factions players can join, indeed, but none currently with strength enough to make things interesting. Shortly, things are increadably disperate. With the arrival fo the Tribe of the Blade, I'd hoped that they'd quickly arrive to fill the gap the Tigers left, but sadly that'd been a slower process, and a lot of the faction are dead, I understand. Whether the slowness of intergration is by the will of players or DMs, I don't know, but my feeling at the moment would be that Lower needs to have some faction solidarity of some shape or form if it is to attract newer players.

More on this later.

-DD

Oroborous I've got a script for random tunnels and passages somewhere. Its not too hard to set up, with an added check making druids and rangers less likely to be lost.

I don't even understand how that would work. When you transition, it makes some random check, and if you fail, you're sent into some confusing tunnels transition, instead of where you meant to go?

I thought of it already, in past

But what happens when a party travels?

DangerousDan A problem with Lower, as far as I can establish, has been the lack of any group to fill the void the Tigereyes left. (Bear with me, as this all happened before my time.) There are plenty of interesting factions players can join, indeed, but none currently with strength enough to make things interesting. Shortly, things are increadably disperate. With the arrival fo the Tribe of the Blade, I'd hoped that they'd quickly arrive to fill the gap the Tigers left, but sadly that'd been a slower process, and a lot of the faction are dead, I understand. Whether the slowness of intergration is by the will of players or DMs, I don't know, but my feeling at the moment would be that Lower needs to have some faction solidarity of some shape or form if it is to attract newer players.

More on this later.

-DD

I laughed milk out my nose.

I talked to Crosswind about this issue, he said essentially that Worn was one of the groups with the allies to fulfill the Tigereye void.

So I must again point out, there are groups with an interest to control Lower Sanctuary.

And I mean GROUPS not charactes. These GROUPS should be locating characters that align to their motives, goals, and agendas and be offering them more and more support to affect things.

Sure, let the player "gang" form or the player "demogogue" strut his stuff--but there are power brokers in Sanctuary, interest groups, citizen constituencies that should be aligning themselves with players and I do not see this happening.

To create a living and breathing world, the background characters need to do things otherwise you create a strange picture where one PC can claim that the rothe herd is depleted in the Underdark and soon Sanctuary will starve to death entirely and then dozens of PCs pick up on that idea. When the reality is that 90% of the city eats rats, not rothe--and the herds are doing great. The imbalance occurs because their is no Commoner saying "You hear the gonzos claiming the rothe are going extinct cause of over eating? We got nothing to eat down here but rat!" or "Bhast is the Mayor now? What crap is that? Good thing LOCAL GANG LEADER never sold out, me and the boys are ready to fight beside him now!" or conversely "Damn, LOCAL GANG LEADER still hates Bhast? No one down here hates him."

A simple script, which can be attached to various NPCs can accomplish amazing feats if its tied into a listener device and a data base.

Then create a number of citizens for various neighborhoods who read database statements--spoken by DMs in a special DM location.

You can have Disgruntled Upper Citizens--with more appearing or disappearing depending on how the citizens in Upper view current events. Content Citizens who are very happy. Then regular citizens--each with its own database of comments on what is happening in the city and how they view/understand it.

Do the same thing in Lower, and in Sewertown. Then players can try to affect these sentiments.

With ever PC election, there is a spate of "I'm for the necromancy laws! I'm for clarifying weapon laws!" I always go, well does the average voting citizen give a damn? Typically, voters care about --tax raises, allocation of government funds--moral issues hardly matter, weapon laws only affect adventurers who form what % of the population?

I'd like to see more demographic information reflected in game essentially.

On getting lost in the Underdark, try not to think of every area and transition as perfectly lining up with each other. There are (supposedly) many, many miles between Sanctuary and Traensyr, or Sslal'teesh, or many other places that you can reach in an hour or less. Having random paths by failing some sort of knowledge/intuition/survival check sounds pretty neat to me. I imagine that a party could make a large "assisted" check to avoid getting lost, although sometimes I think large parties should have a greater chance of getting lost ("I told you it wasn't this way, but did you listen?"). For following people, I suppose it wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a transition "remember" the last failed direction for a minute and offer a dialog option, "<Name> is still in sight. Follow <him/her>?" (With some appropriate check, of course.

my thought on a suvivalistic feel is if Sanctuary were to come under occupation...much like the cylons did in Battlestar Galactica. Where the current council exists, but only as a puppet of our masters.

The city then would be dangerous to even live in....supplies would be short handed and weapons would be non-existant, the bank would be looted, etc....

And to add to that increased and more dangerous spawns outside the city and even if the city is able to fight off the occupiers, it's still screwed because supplies to the city for the vendors has been cut off by the stronger monsters now roaming around outside.

THAT will put the survival back in survivalistic.

Another thing I thought of tonight. More than half a year ago, we were fighting Breen's pets -- a horde of spiders. Then we fought the Tigereyes -- humans and demihumans all of them. Inbetween that, and a whole lot of other, minor invasions from the outside, Chosen came up on the streets from whereever. Now we're fighting dragons, *spoilers*, and *spoilers* instead. EfU has sort of gotten a, shall we say, "epic" feel to it, even though the average character level isn't even that high. When you manage to kill a *spoiler*, I'd imagine you grow a centimeter or two in height, and you're suddenly not afraid of petty wererats anymore. I personally wouldn't mind seeing more common "boss monsters," such as beholders, Chosen, maybe even a malfunctioning animatron or two, instead of one dragon after the other.

Those are things to pursue IG, no?

alogen Those are things to pursue IG, no?

Like what? With signs?

"Dragons not welcome, we already got me. Send more chosen and anger beetles?"

Seems like a perfectly valid suggestion, in a low magic world dragons should be rare as compassionate conservatives. Instead, they're as rare as people claiming to be compassionate conservatives when you've come across four or five in the module.

What are you talking about in terms of killing dragons? We have one major dragon NPC and he's certainly not been defeated. I'm not aware of any incidents of any dragon attacking Sanctuary.

Although this thread has gotten derailed in spectacular fashion, the original suggestion has been implemented/fixed for v968.

Howland What are you talking about in terms of killing dragons? We have one major dragon NPC and he's certainly not been defeated. I'm not aware of any incidents of any dragon attacking Sanctuary.

Note, I didn't say killing dragons. However, I'm aware of at least three separate dragons that have existed in EfU--one of which was slain. I've heard mention of what could be two other dragons but can't confirm if they really existed.

Arkov Although this thread has gotten derailed in spectacular fashion, the original suggestion has been implemented/fixed for v968.

Fixed as no more crystal, or would it go fading as should be?

Howland What are you talking about in terms of killing dragons? We have one major dragon NPC and he's certainly not been defeated. I'm not aware of any incidents of any dragon attacking Sanctuary.

Also as I said for lack of survival feel play a goblin or kobold. Also try having a bounty on you and being a goblin at the same time.

OOpps, Spoilers removed.

Spoilers! Oh, my eyes!!! :?