I've spoken to one DM in IRC about this already, but after thinking about it some more I feel I should get a better sense of things from the DM Community as a whole.

What I need to know is if roleplaying spells that are not scripted in NWN is considered against the rules? I'm aware that it requires other players to 'play along' with you and thus can make things difficult, but there are also many spells that don't require other player interaction at all.

NWN Spells are, in my opinion at least, 98% combat spells and don't work very well for a more traditional Wizard who isn't heading out to go adventuring and questing. I want to do things that will add flavor to my character, and drive home the fact that they are a wizard - and this would involve doing things that are not typical of the average person.

This could be as simple as sending a letter on the forums using an Illusionary Script Spell (detailed below) or having a journal that makes use of the Secret Page Spell (detailed below). Or it could be grabbing something from a table by casting Mage Hand (detailed below), and maybe conjuring an Unseen Servant (detailed below) to clean up a mess that was made.

Of course, there are others that would require player participation such as using Change Self (detailed below) to aid in further making a disguise more difficult to recognize you with. Or casting Nystul's Magic Aura (detailed below) in an attempt to try and fool someone into thinking a weapon is magically enchanted... or perhaps even casting Detect Thoughts (detailed below) in an attempt to read the feelings, emotions or surface thoughts of someone else.

These are all spells that a wizard would have access to and are found in the PHB, but due to the avenue in which we play, they simply can't be scripted, or would require a DM to be present each and every time they were used.

What I want to know is if it is acceptable (rules wise) to "cast" spells that we don't have access too, provided that other players are willing to play along, and they are allowed to make the proper saves, etc. This is primarily focused at non-combat oriented spells - there are plenty of spells scripted into the engine that can kill, but those spells are largely useless to a Wizard who isn't going to be engaging in combat on a frequent basis. I am primarily looking to improve the flavor of the Wizard, as well as create a wizard that is less combat oriented in nature.

I've seen other people playing Wizards do similar things, but I'm mostly interested in DM response to ensure that nothing unethical is taking place.

Thanks. Below are some spells from the PHB to give examples of what I am talking about.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghost Sound Illusion (Figment) Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Illusory sounds Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with) Spell Resistance: No

Ghost sound allows the character to create a volume of sound that rises, recedes, approaches, or remains at a fixed place. The character chooses what type of sound the spell creates when casting the spell and cannot thereafter change its basic character. The volume of sound created, however, depends on the character's level. The character can produce as much noise as four normal humans per caster level (maximum twenty humans). Thus, talking, singing, shouting, walking, marching, or running sounds can be created. The noise a ghost sound spell produces can be virtually any type of sound within the volume limit. A horde of rats running and squeaking is about the same volume as eight humans running and shouting. A roaring lion is equal to the noise from sixteen humans, while a roaring dire cat is equal to the noise from twenty humans.

Note that ghost sound can enhance the effectiveness of a silent image spell.

------------

Mage Hand Transmutation Level: Brd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Nonmagical, unattended object weighing up to 5 lb. Duration: Concentration Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

The character points a finger at an object and can lift it and move it at will from a distance. As a move equivalent action, the character can move the object up to 15 feet in any direction, though the spell ends if the distance between the character and the object ever exceeds the spell’s range.

------------

Unseen Servant Conjuration (Creation) Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

The unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at the character's command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so, thus allowing the character to command the servant to clean the floor and then turn the character's attention elsewhere as long as the character remains within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, etc. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, and that is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. Its speed is 15 feet. The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If the character attempts to send it beyond the spell’s range (measured from the character's current position), the servant ceases to exist.

------------

Change Self Illusion (Glamer) Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Trickery 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: The character Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)

The character make the his or herself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. The character can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. The character cannot change the character's body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other generally human-shaped bipedal creature. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to the character. The character could add or obscure a minor feature, such as a mole or a beard, or look like an entirely different person.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form. It does not alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of the character or the character's equipment. A battleaxe made to look like a dagger still functions as a battleaxe.

If the character uses this spell to create a disguise, the character gets a +10 bonus on the Disguise check.

Note: Creatures get Will saves to recognize the glamer as an illusion if they interact with it (such as by touching the character and having that not match what they see, in this case of this spell).

------------

Nystul’s Magic Aura Illusion (Glamer) Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 action Range: Touch Target: One touched object weighing up to 5 lb./level Duration: 1 day/level Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: No

The character makes an item’s aura register to detection spells (and similar spells) as though it were either a magic item of the type that the character specifies or the subject of a spell that the character specifies. The character could make an ordinary sword register as a +2 vorpal sword as far as magical detection is concerned or make a +2 vorpal sword register as if it were a +1 sword.

If the object bearing Nystul’s magic aura has identify cast on it or is similarly examined, the examiner recognizes that the aura is false and detects the object’s actual qualities if he succeeds at a Will save. Otherwise, he believes the aura and no amount of testing reveals what the true magic is.

If the targeted item’s own aura is exceptionally powerful (if it is an artifact, for instance), Nystul’s magic aura doesn’t work.

Note: A magic weapon, shield, or suit of armor must be a masterwork item, so a sword of average make, for example, looks suspicious if it has a magical aura.

------------

Detect Thoughts Divination [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 2, Knowledge 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 action Range: 60 ft. Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute/level (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (see text) Spell Resistance: No

The character detect surface thoughts. The amount of information revealed depends on how long the character studies a particular area or subject:

1st Round: Presence or absence of thoughts (from conscious creatures with Intelligence scores of 1 or higher).

2nd Round: Number of thinking minds and the mental strength of each.

3rd Round: Surface thoughts of any mind in the area. A target’s Will save prevents the character from reading its thoughts, and the character must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that the character can pick up.

Intelligence____Mental Strength 1–2__________Animal 3–5__________Very low 6–9__________Low 10–11________Average 12–15________High 16–17________Very high 18–21________Genius 22–25________Supra-genius 26+__________Deific

Note: Each round, the character can turn to detect thoughts in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

Arcane Focus: A copper piece.

------------

Illusory Script Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 minute or longer (see text) Range: Touch Target: One touched object weighing no more than 10 lb. Duration: 1 day/level Saving Throw: Will negates (see text) Spell Resistance: Yes

The character write instructions or other information on parchment, paper, or any suitable writing material. The illusory script appears to be some form of foreign or magic writing. Only the person (or people) designated by the character at the time of the casting are able to read the writing; it’s completely unintelligible to any other character, although an illusionist recognizes it as illusory script.

Any unauthorized creature attempting to read the script triggers a potent illusory effect and must make a saving throw. A successful saving throw means the creature can look away with only a mild sense of disorientation. Failure means the creature is subject to a suggestion implanted in the script by the character at the time the illusory script spell was cast. The suggestion lasts only 30 minutes. Typical suggestions include "Close the book and leave," "Forget the existence of the book," and so forth. If successfully dispelled by dispel magic, the illusory script and its secret message disappear. The hidden message can be read by a combination of the true seeing spell with the read magic or comprehend languages spell.

The casting time depends on how long a message the character wishes to write, but it is always at least 1 minute.

Material Component: At least 50 gp.

------------

Secret Page Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Touch Target: Page touched, up to 3 sq. ft. in size Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No

Secret page alters the actual contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. Thus, a map can be changed to become a treatise on burnishing ebony walking sticks. The text of a spell can be changed to show a ledger page or even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.

A comprehend languages spell alone cannot reveal the secret page’s contents. The character is able to reveal the original contents by speaking a special word, perusing the actual page, and then returning it to its secret page form at will. The character can also remove the spell by double repetition of the special word. A detect magic spell reveals dim magic on the page in question but does not reveal its true contents. True seeing reveals the presence of the hidden material but does not reveal the contents unless cast in combination with comprehend languages. Secret page can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell.

My personal response to this, which in no way reflects the opinions of the entire DM staff, is that, while regrettable, I am against using non-scripted spells. It's essentially like any power that someone can pretend to have while not actually having mechanical access to it, and requiring other people to play along is very hit-or-miss.

If we could script some of these things, it would be a different story, but since there's no way in the game engine for you to memorize these spells, cast these spells, do accurate saving throws for these spells, or accurately visually represent these spells, I am against it.

Don't do this.

This has been my experience this far... it seems that there are a number of different opinions on the matter. When I played Thazar, the major limitation to the character was my worry that I would end up doing something considered unethical by the DM's and get in trouble for it. So I restricted myself to only playing scripted spells... which, being an Enchanter severely limited and handicapped the character.

I've seen other people do a number of things, some of which I knew DM's would frown upon. For example, using telepathic abilities to speak to someone in their mind via tells. I don't remember who it was, but I remember a DM telling someone on IRC a while back that this was frowned upon. And of course, many other minor things.

Personally, I don't see what is wrong with using something like Unseen Servant (since it is invisible, can't enter combat, etc) for spice purposes. Or using mage hand, similarly.

I can see the reasoning behind the use of non-scripted spells when it requires other players to play along... but what about scripted spells such as charm person? I've actually used Charm Person with Melrick on many occasions to get information that I needed. However, when using it on players, it still requires them to play along, but they could of course simply refuse to cooperate. I never had that happen, although I would attribute this more to both luck and the quality of the players I interacted with. (The only problem that was had was the fact that people role-played it out differently... but ultimately I like to think everyone found it interesting and enjoyable as a whole.)

Then there are some other gray areas, such as using the Intellect Devourer Familiar. While speaking telepathically to other players is frowned upon, this is how the creature communicates as it lacks a mouth for speech. It communicates much like an Illithid might, through thoughts and the ability to project emotions. (An Intellect Devourer NPC in the game does this.)

Where is the line, in that case?

There seem to be a lot of gray areas, and what I would really like from the DM Staff is for them to come to a consensus as a whole. Either come up with a set of guidelines to follow, or give some direction - or simply tell me "Go role-play, we'll let you know if you do something you shouldn't."

I spoke to DM's on this issue when I played Thazar and the opinions seemed to be mixed. I want to create another character and put an application in to join the Spellguard, but I have been sitting on the idea for awhile to ensure that it is something I'd enjoy playing. I really didn't enjoy playing Thazar due to the limitations, and if the DM consensus is scripted spells only unless there is someone there to oversee, or prior approval is necessary (even for something as mundane as using Mage Hand to grab something from a table) then I'll probably just avoid making Wizards/Sorcerers all together. I would not want to put up with the limitations, although I certainly understand that point of view.

Communicating telepathically through tells is not allowed. All tells between players are considered out-of-character.

Basically, if it's not in the game already, and we haven't found a way to add it, it doesn't exist in Escape from the Underdark. If it's not built into the spell, players are not forced to play along. If a player agrees to play along with charm person or dominate person, that's fine, otherwise you would need a DM to enforce effects beyond those associated mechanically with the spell.

Are other spells (other than the ones currently found IG) scripted into EfU? If so, how are they added? EfU doesn't use haks so I am assuming they are placed on items. If this is the case is there a larger selection available for DM factions such as the Spellguard? If not, how do I (as a player) expand my spell repertoire?

I'm interested in playing a character that is based around research, primarily research dealing with furthering the integration of the arcane and technology, but also pushing forward into other fields of enchantment, illusions and transmutation. As a result almost every standard spell is for the most part useless to me as I don't intend to be engaging in combat on a regular basis at all. Even if I had to go out and find spell components, I'd likely send others.

I'd like to see a DM consensus on this issue and perhaps some guidelines or rules posted in this regard. I'll probably just avoid playing Wizards, as I feel this largely 'gimps' them unless they have DM oversight or are playing the adventuring type. This is especially true for those who don't bother asking, and aren't aware of the sentiment. A consensus and some guidelines/rules would make sure everyone is on the same page. As it currently stands, I think it mostly seems to be up to DM discretion and since we have so many... it makes it difficult for players.

Meldread Are other spells (other than the ones currently found IG) scripted into EfU? If so, how are they added? EfU doesn't use haks so I am assuming they are placed on items. If this is the case is there a larger selection available for DM factions such as the Spellguard? If not, how do I (as a player) expand my spell repertoire?

SongofOrpheus Basically, if it's not in the game already, and we haven't found a way to add it, it doesn't exist in Escape from the Underdark.

As explained, there are no extra spells scripted into EfU. So as a player, you cannot expand your spell repertoire beyond the confines of those available in NWN.

Meldread I'd like to see a DM consensus on this issue and perhaps some guidelines or rules posted in this regard. I'll probably just avoid playing Wizards, as I feel this largely 'gimps' them unless they have DM oversight or are playing the adventuring type. This is especially true for those who don't bother asking, and aren't aware of the sentiment. A consensus and some guidelines/rules would make sure everyone is on the same page. As it currently stands, I think it mostly seems to be up to DM discretion and since we have so many... it makes it difficult for players.

It's simply impossible, and therefore unsupported.

DM Consensus: Achieved!

Yeah, no telling people that you have an invisible flying gnomish warrior wandering around with you all the time that does your menial tasks. No using your mind powers to magically send letters whizzing through the air to their destination on the forums. No giant-flaming-monkey spells, or divining the direction of Traensyr (because after all, everyone knows where it is, why can't you scry on bits of the underdark just a little?)

Bad Meldread! Bad! *fluffles his hair condescendingly*

I know what you mean though, but if we choose to include these things, we'll script them. If there's something doable, and worth doing, it'll be done. p.s. this isn't an invitation to make 487625475 suggestions which'll give more stuff to mages :(

Thanks for the responses.

This was the main problem I had when I played Thazar and was the main reason I disliked playing him. I never role-played anything other than scripted spells after speaking to a DM (I forget who - but I want to say Howland) who basically told me the sentiments shared here. Having chosen to specialize in Enchantment I pretty much gimped myself on both the combat and role-playing end, cutting myself off from critical spells such as Ghostly Visage, Invisibility and Improved Invisibility.

I understand and can agree why the rules are in place as they are, but I don't feel that they're public knowledge. As I said I've seen people (even Non-Wizards, actually) role-playing 'magic' that they didn't have. I showed my concept to one of the DM's for feedback, and after speaking to the DM I was told that I could use illusions to make my character appear younger (similar to how a non-Wizard might use cosmetics). I started talking about my concept with a few players, and then I started having horrid flashbacks of gimped Thazar and decided I should post here before even worrying about sending in an application.

Mostly, I was looking to see if it was acceptable to have ambient powers - abilities that would enhance role-playing for the character. Combat wise I don't think the Wizard is hurting, but outside of combat there isn't a whole lot of... wizardly... things that a player can do without DM intervention. Then again, I could just suffer from a lack of imagination or just suck really bad at role-playing Wizards.

In either case, I might take Wizard levels to multiclass, but there is no way I'm going pure Wizard again. Thanks for the responses and clarification because I know I'm not the only one that was confused on this matter.