Well, title says it all...

Please don't get me wrong, but I'm awfully tired of being killed each time a dm is on, just because as soon as he sees a mage boom, it's over. I'm getting to the point where i'll have to check no dm (and maybe one specifically, truly sorry to have to point out) is on before i play my sorceror.. :evil:

I know what you're thinking: this lady is pissed off because she died. Well (of course i am :wink:! but ...), i don't mind dying when i've had a chance to live, and had fun to try and survive. Unfortunately, more than once, this was not the case...

I certainly enjoy spiders dropping from the ceiling to pick out people lagging behind (that would be me! love to watch them drop from the ceiling!). I enjoy mage contests where the other guy beats the hell out my puny spells, or seen my invisibility drop in the mist of a fight while i was in healing someone and get the hell beat out off me... All quite exciting and thus fun whatever the outcome. You'll never hear me complain getting felled because of bad luck or poor teamwork or silly behavior from my part.

I also quite agree that most intelligent creatures will rush the mage once he's spotted - PCs do the same for obvious reasons.

But there's a huge difference with making sure mr bad guy has that "see invisibility" spell cast before the fight to pick out the mage -standing far away- as soon as it begins. Or unintelligent creatures shooting the mage standing far away (not even attacking/casting!) while warriors are beating the hell out of it.

This is what i call "picking on mages", as if all creatures only wanted to get the weak PCs before being felled themselves.

I really enjoy EfU and my PCs have died in fun or silly ways countless times. DMs are doing a great job too, whether it being with events or challenging quests. I've been DMing for more than 20 years (probably one of the few girl DM by the way!) and know how hard it is to balance game challenges. It's probably even more difficult in computer games, because once things are started, Big Brother does most of the fight. So, please don't get me wrong dear DMs, i think you're doing a great job, but i'd like to draw your attention one this specific issue: killing mages is way too easy once you've decided it. And although levelling up sure is secondary in EfU (and that's a really nice change from hack n' slash), it does matter, especially for weak PCs who want to explore outside town (and for the player who's spend 1 month levelling!)

So, I'm writing this topic about mages/sorcerors, because unlike most other classes, they last about half a round against fully prepared higher level melee opponents. Thus, they have less time to react and to have fun trying to survive. So, you may think i'm overreacting to a PC kill, but i just want to draw your attention to this specific issue when a DM is playing "against" PCs. :idea:

So i know it sounds like a complain (and it is, but just on this issue, cause otherwise i love the game!), but I would just ask the DMs to remember the difference between making a quest more challenging, and making sure you kill the group's weakest elements , because, all in all, it's a game and we all want to have fun.

PS: i really don't know if that's the right place to put such a topic, so very sorry if it isn't :oops:!

This guy does prove a point. TOday I was just killed by a dire rat and two normal rats.

I'm sorry you're upset, but the way you're phrasing this is pretty inflammatory. The thing is, low hitpoint classes (such as wizards and sorcerors) are substantially harder to play (yet certainly incredibly effective and powerful when played well). Although I'm reluctant to make assumptions, I can tell you that the chances that many of your character's deaths were to totally un-possessed monsters with no DM involvement whatsoever is pretty decent. NPCs will on their own accord target low-AC classes, spiders will drop from their ceiling on their own on some quests, etc.

If you have a particular issue with a particular death that you think was DM caused, you're encouraged to discuss the matter with the DM involved or contact myself privately. However, I have lost count of the number of times people think they died to a DM when nothing could be further from the case.

Otherwise, I think a more constructive post would be, "Hey, I'm having trouble surviving with my wizard, does anyone have any suggestions for how I could improve on that?"

Well, I'm mostly seeing it as reasonable to take down the wizard/sorcerer first if at all possible. They can easily be most dangerous enemy to most of beings out there.

For surviving, well in RP world I'm interest to try few things. Maybe take silent casting, maybe things won't understand where the fireball first came if they don't catch you throwing it out from your sleeve. Second, invisibility rules, cast, use it and get away. You can also get more friends. Pay for the tall guy to protect you with his life, maybe cast some enchantment to aid him... Ways are many, I think. It's just about your imagination and the experience of trying different methods.

Wizards and Sorcerors truly are glass cannons. So immense, full of power ... and utterly fragile. I've played several on EFU, and agree with you that surviving spice can be absolutely terrifying at times for the character. If you want any tips on how to survive, PM me and I'll do what I can to give you some advice.

Well well ! You folks sure answer quickly ! Thank you for that ! :D

I expected your answers of course, and though advice on playing spellcasters are always handy , they are more or less beside the point. :arrow:

So i guess i wasn't clear...

What i'm complaining about is not survival rate of wizards and sorcerors. If played like they should, they actually rarely takes hits, and survive quite well, and are an enormous asset to a team. I got to level 8 rather easily, and that seems to be pretty good in EfU.

But i do worry about the systematic hide and seek game i've had to play lately with DM possessed NPCs. They OOCly know there's an invisible mage in the quest, and hunt him down.

And as much as i respect DM work (which is fun and hard at the same time) that does put me out, because as i already said, mage killing is too easy... :evil:

So, since i'm stuck at home i thought i'd mention it ! :lol:

Like any DM, i've had to face the warth of players, sometimes justified, sometimes not, though it's always hard to tell when you're involved in the event. I also remember quite well how easily players hold a grudge and complain ! :wink: I'm probably no better than the rest !

But i'm really trying hard to be fair in my assess. :!:

So i only wanted to remind DMs (and please forgive me if i sound arrogant or overcritical - that's not at all the idea of this post, i must insist, i really enjoy your work !) that there comes a time in DMing when you really got to be careful and remember what DMing is about (entertaining and keeping PCs sharp), or what it's not about (adding pointless fight after fight or easy killing, for exemple).

For example, it's one thing to incarnate a bad guy, but another to seek and destroy regardless of self survival. I've only once seen a bad guy actually try to flee. I've never (yet !) seen an accounter with a talkative monster that was solved pacifically.

I imagine it's very easy to get carried away when you're DMing in the midst of a battle, and in the next room or the next floor you've forgotten that the monster you're "in" has no idea there's someone stalking invisibly around, and that he should logically concentrate on the PCs he sees.

That's all there is to it really !

Note that i don't hold a grudge on any DM, because i am conviced that either rush or bad balanced foes are part of the game, and as i said earlier, i think the DMs are doing a great job to keep us entertained.

Bottom line to DMs is that sometimes you've got to think twice on target easy PCs (not just mine who will get over it as soon as i log in EfU, i.e. in a few minutes !). You hold great power in your hands and it can easily tip the scale, much more for weak PCs than others.

Now as Howland (god of gods !) mentioned, my post was (is) not very constructive, so i'll make amends and give quick suggestions to DMs (I love doing that !)

- check -if you can- group composition before adding hordes of bad guys, because if you've got to many robed PC, you're sure to kill some.

- prefer slow killing to one stroke kill (the idea being to give just a little time to react). With mages, that's the tricky part... hence this post.

- if you party kill often (or even half party...), ask yourself if the PCs played poorly or if maybe you pushed them too hard,

- don't presume all PC carry hundreds of healing....

- quests are levelled in difficulty, but it appears it is warriors that make a difference. If a group has like 1 warriors and others, i'm not really sure adding to quest difficulty is necessary. But that's a hard one to estimate.

- most of all, when you log on, remember you're an entertainer, not just coming to kill PCs. (though it's a hard one, because PCs have to die once in a while else it's sooooooo boring !)

- and lots more, but i've no time: i want to play !

But i'm sure you know all that :wink: ! Now, back to the game ! :D

Kiss you all !

PS: I strongly agree with posting a advice post for beginners (and even advanced players who, like me, are insufferable know-it alls !)

Perhaps it would be better for a non-DM to help respond. And apologies ahead of time if any parts of this come off as rude, I don't really intend to be. But I am disagreeing with you.

But i do worry about the systematic hide and seek game i've had to play lately with DM possessed NPCs. They OOCly know there's an invisible mage in the quest, and hunt him down.

There are a couple of things about these sentences that strike me as extraordinarily odd. I don't understand how one can play hide and seek with invisibility, as it doesn't work like Stealth. You obviously have a good mechanical understanding of NWN, so I'll spare the comparisons, but I do think it's worth noting that when you're invisible the enemy either SEES you or they do NOT see you. There isn't much in between. Also, invisibility is not a "cure all" for gone-to-hell situations, especially when you get up to levels 6+, which you were.

More about invisibility which you probably do not know. EfU has some custom AI scripting in place (though now that I start typing, this actually might even be a BioWare thing, but I won't digress, the point remains) where NPCs may not SEE you, but they will still be able to hear you and can at times follow you a considerable distance and get off occasional swings.

The second thing is that, from my personal experience as a player on EfU for the past year and a half, I've never seen a DM hunt down a specific player for any reason (being an easy to kill class, in your case), ever, barring one situation when a specific NPC faction singled out one character because he was a specific and very rare subrace.

For example, it's one thing to incarnate a bad guy, but another to seek and destroy regardless of self survival. I've only once seen a bad guy actually try to flee. I've never (yet !) seen an accounter with a talkative monster that was solved pacifically.

I'm not really sure what to say here. In the end... I guess, what else would you expect? Consider your enemy? This is a really hard one to answer because of so many variables. Let me try and throw a few possibilities WHY.

-It's not that much fun. The server may be about RP, but it's about action too! -Gnolls don't often like to "back down" in a fight, nor do Trolls, Urdlenites, rats, Chosen, or whatever else you may be fighting. -In every case I can think of, quests are done on the enemy's home turf. It only makes sense that they beat the intruder's back.

check -if you can- group composition before adding hordes of bad guys, because if you've got to many robed PC, you're sure to kill some.

DMs have already balanced quests with scripts. They merely possess, and rarely add monsters. And also, for some odd reason you're making the assumption that because there are some robed characters along, the group is inferior to a heavily armored one, which just isn't true. Perhaps your character isn't being picky enough with your groups, if you're having trouble with surviving quests in arcanist-heavy groups.

prefer slow killing to one stroke kill

If properly prepared (and this means EVERYTHING to wizards and sorcerors), nothing should be able to kill you quickly. Here's some ideas...

Many small enemies are easily countered with Ghostly Visage/Blur.

Mind affecting spells? Protection from Good/Evill!

Fireballs? Resist and Endure Elements!

Sneaky rogues with sneaky attacks? Clairavoyance!

One really strong enemy? Let your tanks takae care of... ehh, well, Hold Person and disabling spells work too.

Attracting too much attention? Put down your bow/crossbow!

don't presume all PC carry hundreds of healing....

Why shouldn't they? Heck, why AREN'T you! It's the Underdark!

quests are levelled in difficulty, but it appears it is warriors that make a difference. If a group has like 1 warriors and others, i'm not really sure adding to quest difficulty is necessary. But that's a hard one to estimate.

Uhm. Not really sure what you mean here, but you are absolutely right about having a melee combattant. It makes ALL the difference. Sounds like you might have the brewings of your next character!

I realize I made a lot of criticisms. But really, they were criticisms of criticisms. So... they even out or something. Mrawr.

Well, i TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU, hence my problem !

I know IA can hunt down invisible beings (sound you make, UmberHulks, etc... , and even a "bug": if you turn invisible after being spotted, it still chases you)

I know you shouldn't play hide and seek ! Thing is, i have been forced to do so, creature running behind PC lines to check if i was still there (while it had never seen me before), checking the corners hoping to bump into me... Or staying in front of a door or over the body of a fallen PC, while battle still rages in the next room...

Hence my post...

PS: As for DMs not adding monsters..lol. But that's fun ! PPS: As for nothing being able to kill a well-prepared group ! lol bis, but that's fun too. PPPS: as for tips on how too survive, i use them ALL, hence lvl pretty easily, but if you've others i'm game ! PPPPS! i am carrying hundreds of healing... Please note that it's pretty useless for mages, a simple healing potion is enough, and if not, it means you're dead.... Well, for healing others it's usefull *sighs*

Hence my post...

Please read again: i'm not mad about dying.

I am against picking out mages when there's no IG reason to do so. When there is: burn the witch !

And i just want to remind DMs that if players should stay IG, so should they...

But i know that's hard sometimes, so i'm posting this threat to remind them !

Nothing personnal. Just a reminder.

Love you all !

To make it a little more black and white: If you reached level 8 easily, as you say, then you have nothing to complain about. Seems like things have gone pretty well for you, so far. In a year on this server, I have only reached 8 a few times, and for fairly short durations. Be happy things have gone as well as they have!

P.S.-- I know you claim not to be complaining, but, I mean... come on.

*chuckles* :D

Pup ! You're right !

But then regaining lvl 4 to 5 is quick... 6 to 8 is a long way... And i'm not asking for lvl -that i'll take pleasure in doing myself - , i'm reminding DMs to stay IG.

Need any tips to survive ? :wink:

Heh. I probably need more tips than could fit in this thread. :wink: :lol:

I do have to agree with the not caring about their lives thing. My mage once had a powerful spellcaster surrounded with 5 fully armed, full health fighters when she was on near death. I went in to talk to her about letting her live, I said that in my first sentance, and a second later, she hits me with a fire strike. Presented with a chance to leave alive, the egotistical, self-loving played DM possessed character decides to sacrifice herself, surrounded by people who could individually kill her with one hit casts on me, standing away from he them, thus sealing her own death.

This is the most vivid and obvious of these points which came to mind, but I have seen many enemies flippantly throw their lives away just to get off another character. I've seen an Ogre Chieftain (DM possessed) run through two fighters and a rogue, triggering AoOs, just so he could get a 30 damage hit on the healer.

And, if you think that may have been a sacrifice to let his companions continue fighting while the enemy went unhealed, he was the last Ogre left.

Sorry about this small rant, but i've had this on my chest for a long time. I'm sorry to sound so stuck-up, but could DMs please remember that what they are controlling has a personality, brain, and does not solely exist for plot spice or so you can do damage to the enemy.

Often times DM's flippantly spread the attacks around so people don't die!

I think you might be in the minority of players if you'd prefer us to ruthlessly kill PCs one at a time in order to stay IC, SFP : D

*chuckles*

well, i am a minority all by myself 8) !

I know it's real hard to balance killing/letting live once a DM gets into that situation. :roll:

So when he does... think twice (and then boom, it's him who dies ! :twisted: )

Personally I see very little things that make me tick when dm's possess monsters. Wether I'm incrediblely short sighted or lucky I don't know.

What I am sure of is that if I had the choice of trying to smash through a warrior in platemail who is swinging viciously at you and you see a healer nearby distracted with trying to heal someone I know who I would pick. It's called tactical thinking.

The situation was that he ran from about ten yards away, straight through the middle of three people who had just finished their fights, to the healer at the back. You wouldn't normally risk getting slashed at three times, push between them, and then risk getting slashed at three more times, just to hit some old man who was tending to a mage.

SnowJewel But i do worry about the systematic hide and seek game i've had to play lately with DM possessed NPCs. They OOCly know there's an invisible mage in the quest, and hunt him down.

Just remember, if we are possessing monsters to spice up scripted quests, we only see what the monster can see/hear!

Also, Metro is right when he says that the majority of times, we actually spread NPC damage so that people -don't- get killed. For example, there have been countless times where I was possessing an NPC and got somebody down to Near Death before quickly targetting someone else so that the PC wouldn't die! Despite what many may say, DMs do not target people specifically to kill them; we'd much rather see PCs prevail!

Excellent tactics, but again out of the topic...

Would you run through enemy lines hoping to spot a mage whom you've never seen ?...

Would you cast "see invisibility" when you've no way to suspect invisible creatures around and you really should be healing yourself and fleeing ?

Would you stand rounds over an agonizing body while your fellows are still fighting in the room next door ? (kill the agonizing, and move on, or leave him be, don't just wait for something you don't even know is here)

Would you cast dispel when no spell was cast ?

Do you have enough stock to always drink a "see invisibility" before a fight ?

Who would ?

Again, it's not about killing the mage, it's about why (and in a minor issue, how). And sometimes, i see no IG reason... wether tis my PC or others who travel with me when i log with a good old warrior.

I'm sure DMs got the point !

Love you ! (though you may think i don't !)

Just so you get my message right! The majority of times, i think DMs do a hell of a job ! :D

Just lately, i've been feeling (paranoid ?) that mages were being picked out way too often for no IG reason. My sorceror was only killed once in that way (cos i'm a smart girl and keep hasty retreat handy). But i saw others fall, and feel a bit sad for them.

So i was just saying so !

Maybe i'm paranoid :shock: , maybe i'm right. :(

Just keep it in mind, that's all ! :wink:

I think its safe to assume every intelligent creature fighting a group of adventurers would be prepared in some manner for the possible presence of a wizard or sorcerer. It's also safe to assume that such characters would probably be amongst the most targeted, considering how terrifically dangerous they can be when unmolested.

"Would you run through enemy lines hoping to spot a mage whom you've never seen ?... "

Just as a heads up - When we've got a mob of enemies (often weaker enemies), we often have a few of 'em run past the frontline, if we want to make it tough. That way, the fighters get surrounded, chaos ensues, and people have to improvise. I assure you that this is in no way a "get the mage!" tactic. It's a "overrun the PCs and see how they deal with a chaotic situation".

-Cross

I suppose then that you would find it just as unacceptable for the regular run of the mill players to also search out spellcasters to bring down, or is this just in the case of DMs doing it? It should not make a difference in my opinion.

When a DM is possessing a monster or NPC, are they supposed to dumb down the attack when a PC would not?

I think this boils down to the discussion we had over folk not talking about the strategy and not considering how to work together and just barge on ahead. Getting a balanced group and not just a group of robes or grunts. Considering how to work together before a fight will help a good deal.

And yes, spellcasters do need to have confidence in the group to protect them from the nasties. But if your group has not bonded or you have no bodyguard it does make it more difficult.

Shit happens. "The best laid plans of mice and men" and all that.

The DMs rock.

They bust their asses for our amusement.

The module has adapted to maximize everyones fun(DMs and players)

Sometimes things are beyond anyone's control at the time.

Sometimes a DM kills your character just when you had a brilliant counter to the enemies' assault.

Sometimes you do so well you screw up the DMs plans.

Sometimes (most times) your group pwns the bad guys.

Sometimes you die before you know what happened.

These are all reasons why I play here, and nowhere else.

In summary: I don't mean to say there is no room for improvement, or that suggestions are a waste of time, but without a very specific idea for change, I see very little to gain here.

:)

I hate dying, I'm sure we all do. But it happens, a lot. Heck, my mage died twice in the last quest she took, but they were all justifiable in that they happened due to her actions or just plain bad luck, and I learned something from each so hopefully they won't be repeated.

A big part of the appeal of EfU is the dangerous thrill of the risk of death (amongst other things). Sometimes the death is warranted, and sometimes it seems fate is just trying to nail you to the wall, but it's always interesting! (in the Chinese curse sense :wink: )

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the system works very well most of the time, which is the best you can hope for. Enjoy the roller coaster ride!

Tip! Do not cast area of effect spells on enemies that have a duration and hope to disappear via invisibility, it doesn't work :(

My personal experience doesn't support a perception that the DM-possessed NPC's get carried away. My personal experience has been that, generally, the NPC's have mirrored very well the craftiness (or lack thereof) of our own party. I can also think of 3 times right off the top of my head where I watched a DM-possessed NPC back-off from my near-death caster to pursue someone else.

However, that's not to say that SnowJewel is wrong, either. I think it's important we take her perception seriously, and not just dismiss it because it didn't happen to us. DM's, specifically, should consider if/how something like that might occur.

Equally, though, I think SnowJewel needs to consider it could merely be an unfortunate chain of events or a series of coincidences that shaped her perception. It's very easy to take bad things personally, and we tend to remember when we're burned more than when things go okay.

PC's don't often enough pay attention to what the DM's are doing, unless they are getting killed/pwned. Some of the time they don't notice they are actually treating you with kit gloves. On my last spice, a few times I noticed the big bad ass *spoiler* continually was running around casting minor spells to make it seem like he was doing something, without wtfpwning us, at least when he had us on the ropes.

I could list a lot of examples like that. I've only ever witnessed one occasion where it was obvious the DM wanted me dead, and I died. You don't survive very long near death, knocked down.

The moral of the story? Sometimes the DM's fight dirty, but most the time their hoping you survive, their just making the monsters believable.

When you're playing the meat shield, don't you make every effort to cut out the tenderbits of any spellcaster you see? I know I do. There's a reason for it!

Vlaid

I could list a lot of examples like that. I've only ever witnessed one occasion where it was obvious the DM wanted me dead, and I died. You don't survive very long near death, knocked down.

Sorry to point this out Vlaid, and I appreciate that it wasn't the message you were trying to convey in your post (quite the opposite really) but I find statements like this absolutely incorrect and I need to address it.

DMs don't 'want to kill people'. We're here to have fun just like you and I can assure you, killing people as a DM is not fun at all. It'd be boring, achieve nothing and make us feel bad. However, what -is- fun is providing dynamic and challenging scenarios (which yes, do include battles too) that players can tackle and hopefully prevail in. By the very definition of 'challenging' though, there is of course room for failure (and yes, that sometimes means death). Also to be considered is the imperfect vehicle (NWN) through which we all interact. Balancing quests is ridiculously hard to do, and sometimes we get it wrong and sometimes you will die as a result. If its obvious (which it may not be) we'll often raise you and will in most cases give players benefit of the doubt.

Assertions that DMs 'want you dead' and that we kill people in due course is simply untrue. I can assure you that everyone on the DM team is above selectively killing characters or players they don't personally like.

Disregarding balance issues (which we try our best with!), character deaths (whether due to an unlucky roll, a single character's actions during a battle or a whole group's) are entirely out of our control. Sure, we have the power to TR people but unless it can be established that it was in fact a balance issue, we can't do anything about, even if we wanted to. This is to maintain a fair as possible system.

The failure of players (and I'm not accusing anyone here personally) to understand these kind of things, and willingness of some people to attribute deaths which are in fact outside DM control to vindictiveness can be very poisonous, particularly in a close-knit community like EfU.

My advice to players is just to chill, realize its just a game (an imperfect one at that), appreciate the many variables involved in any death and finally to believe, however hard it is to do, that DMs aren't out to kill you.

Sorry for the rant! Its just something I feel strongly about. :)

Disclaimer: I'm reiterating that this isn't addressed to anybody in particular at all, but is instead a general server-wide thing.

MadCaddies

Vlaid

I could list a lot of examples like that. I've only ever witnessed one occasion where it was obvious the DM wanted me dead, and I died. You don't survive very long near death, knocked down.

Sorry to point this out Vlaid, and I appreciate that it wasn't the message you were trying to convey in your post (quite the opposite really) but I find statements like this absolutely incorrect and I need to address it.

That wasn't what I was trying to convey at all. I may have worded it wrong, but what I meant was, most of the time if you're put into a seemingly inescapable position, it's very rare they will pick out someone in an extremely bad position to focus all of their attacks on, unless they think the PC is tough enough to take it.

I really just meant, that the one instance I meantioned was the only time I didn't feel like the DM pulled a few punches.

This may sound strange, but for me death is not a bad thing.

I have met some cool people here in EFU, and some of the best moments have been in the Hold, being resurected -- with all of my character's friends standing around teary eyed, and then seeing them all smile with joy, and surrounding me, telling me how much they care, and how glad they are that I was able to be saved. (And friends ingame make things so much more fun!)

I have had my character killed by a DM in order to further a plot. The story got really juicy because of it. A good story using a non-perma death? Thats a win in my book! (and again-- getting rezzed and then surrounded by friends? Brought tears to my eyes and a smile to my face!)

As for permadeath, I will always remember the characters that spent time with mine, and remember them fondly. And to have someone say, "I sure do miss Iria-- that was one kick arse character!"-- everytime I hear it, it makes my day!

I do remember one incedent, where Hek came in with his Stout character-- (a spellcaster, mind you) and sacrificed himself to save the rest of us. Truly epic! The wake for him was so great, it shook the foundations of the earth.

As for tactics, when I am fighting, no matter what my character class, I try to take out the spellcasters first. They are much more dangerous, pound for pound, than any other class. I would have to assume that the bad guys would use the same tactics. Any hint that a spellcaster is in the area, that spellchucker gets taken out, whatever side they are on.

And yes-- I do my best to protect the spellcasters on my side, because I know they will get singled out by the opposing force.

Just a note-- whenever something happens and I don't understand whats going on or why-- I ask to talk to a DM. I have never had them show me disrespect. They have taken the time and patience to talk with me and sort out any missunderstanding.

Its a game, and games were meant to be fun. The fun for me is the kick arse stories that my character gets to particapate in, the cool player characters that I interact with, and the DM team that holds it all together and makes it interesting.

Well, i tend to think Snowjewel's post is pretty sensible.

DMs do a great work, but once in a while one may get carried away, or err in estimating a group's strength. Putting aside the obvious fact that when a DM possessed creature should kill, it should !

I've been in a quest (gnome quest) where DM monster (giant mole)whipped out the team, and DM raised us all, saying the mole had just "knocked us over" before running off.

Nice to see some admit errors can happen. They happen to all of us.

I've also seen mages been whiped out a little too "unfairly" (not that i care, i always play warriors !) That's why i think we should take this post seriously, wether Snowjewel is biaised or not.

I see this post as an opportunity to better game experience, not to criticize DM work.

A bit off topic, but I think worth mentioning:

I can second on MadCaddies. I am no DM, but the entire group is AWESOME if you just ask nice. They NEVER target high-level chars, and in fact, if you push an agenda that is awesome and fun, they will try incredibly hard to make it happen. I always try to let new or unexperienced players know what they need to do in order to have awesome or interesting chars.

I have found that it really does depend on how many people you want to/may include, but primarily, just own your character. If you play your character as you picture him/her, things will develop on their own.

Obey the rules, OWN your char., and things will unfold before you(if this hasn't happened, just wait!).

Again.

GOALS, GOALS, GOALS!

The DMs love it. That is what they want. The DMs don't want to make up everything themselves, and hope people will do something tight!

GOALS!!!

[EDIT] Sorry for the rant, but the DMs do bust their collective asses for cool ideas!]

As long as DMs don't possess Ogre Mages, count your blessings.

Hoo-ah!

Every class has its own strengths and weaknesses. You need to know how to exploit those. I have played an extremely succesful high-level Wizard for close to half a year, without dying a single time, until he chose to self-sacrifice for the group.

Furthermore, statements made that a PC/NPC (Whether DM possessed, or not), should not ignore others, even though acquiring massive amounts of damage, to get to a character in particular with whom he bears a feud and get in the killing blow, is just absurd. Just take all Action-films for example. How often has it not happened that the hero runs through gunfire, explosions and what-no, just to melee the big bad evil boss. Why not crouch, hide and take the safe path? All the others attacking you are merely 'side-effects', 'secondary goals'. Killing that one foe is the objective, and all else is by-product. In the case of the Ogre Chieftain rushing past 2 Warriors and 1 Rogue to attack the Healer after the Ogre's entire party just got its ass handed back to Stromnaus might even be a tactical decission. Who stands a chance meleeing 3 characters with a Healer backing them up? Take out the Healer, and your own chances of survival increase. Obviously, it's fight or flight for the Ogre, and his flight chances are slim as they are, even if it would occur to a battle-minded Ogre. War-like creatures such as these know little of retreat, thinking it shameful, worse than the price of death.

As long as DMs don't possess Ogre Mages, count your blessings.

I prefer Orog Sorcerers personally. More bang for your buck.

To give another DM view on paying mages: I don't. I don't because I suck at keeping them alive, but more than that, I find them incredibly boring to play. That said, don't think you can't attack and not get attacked. The AI does allow for archers/monsters to target spellcasters, just as you do for monster spellcasters.

It's also quite unfair just to blame DM's because your character died. Most times you die because you bleed to death and your 'friends' are too busy saving their own necks to worry about your moaning for help. The DM cant stop critical hits and the like from severing your neck and by passing the subdueing but hey its called a critical hit for a reason.

Once you get subdued and you fall to the floor they instantly switch target instead of harvesting your organs and gold

@ Vlaid:

Yeah I know, man.

The times my characters have been near death and/or knocked down and the DM possed ugly chose another target are many.

But Caddies' character killed me once. Real quiet, too. Bastard.

What I said contributed nothing at all, sorry

(Editied, 2 minutes after making post)

To make this as gentle as possible, we will do it via limerick.

There once was a player, SnowJewel. Who thought that fake accounts were cool To back up her first post She invented a ghost But IPs are sure hard to fool.

So the moral of this story goes You can't fool the Arkov. He KNOWS. With a mind like a trap He checked your IP Map And BigWarrior was just a pose.

So to conclude, without much malaise Lying to your friends never pays. If your main point is neat You need not use deceit For we'll listen to you anyways.

=)

-Cross

I think there are two seperate issues here. 1) Do DMs target casters, and 2) are casters weaker here.

Yes, DMs will target casters. Everyone gets targeted at some point or another during spice, and so the flimsy ones at the back will sometimes get a serve. In addition, some times there are good IC reasons to target a mage. There is a specific group of NPCs on the server who have stealthy "mage hunters". Crazily enough, a DM possessing one will usually attack a mage.

The problem with being targeted is that of course casters are weaker on this server. Spellcasters only just start to come into thier own at the top of the soft cap. The jump in power between lvl 7, 9, 11 and 13 are tremendous. In short no caster will ever reach thier sweet spot on this erver. There are also a scrillion caster mimicing items on this server. Yes they are mostly limited use, but tank running around with colour sprays, confusion, darkness, dispels etc etc, in addition to the normal buffage via potions, is allways going to be stronger than a vanilla tank on a different server.

In short, signing up for a mage or a sorc on this server is a bold act, it is allways going to be a challange.

Monk/wizard, monk/sorceror multiclass. Simple

Yes, the build is simple. Now justify it ICly. Especially because it's a written rule (in PnP) that once you level in something else than monk, you're not allowed to level in monk again. Even then, I'd be interested in how you'd justify it.

This is an aside, but..

Marfdasko Yes, the build is simple. Now justify it ICly. Especially because it's a written rule (in PnP) that once you level in something else than monk, you're not allowed to level in monk again. Even then, I'd be interested in how you'd justify it.

Because, in the Forgotten Realms, Monks and Paladins that are part of specific orders can multiclass with or without restrictions if their order allows it. Monk/Paladin multiclassing does not come from the deity itself, but the order to which those classes belong.

So, for example, members of the Order of The Dark Moon, a highly secretive and relatively small order dedicated to Shar, can multiclass to Sorceror; providing that their monk levels and sorceror levels always remain within two of one another.

Not all Sharran monks can multiclass to Sorceror, however.

A highly useful tool when checking the list of Monk/Paladin orders, devoted to a deity or otherwise, is this helpful little web enhancement to Faiths and Pantheons, amusingly entitled "Do's and Don'ts". While it doesn't list every single Order, it does list all the FR Orders that support some manner of multiclassing.

When in doubt though, be sure to check with a DM.

So, please, sit back. Relax. Share it with your friends and compatriots.

Faiths & Pantheons Web Enhancement

I have a crush on Crosswind. : (

Bleh If I knew that...well, 5 lvl on a monk, then Rest ya lvls be wizie. How does that sound? IC justification is that your monk found an interest in magic, and wished to learn.

He's so dreamy...

You stay up 36 hours and see how you like *grumbles*

9lives This is an aside, but..

Marfdasko Yes, the build is simple. Now justify it ICly. Especially because it's a written rule (in PnP) that once you level in something else than monk, you're not allowed to level in monk again. Even then, I'd be interested in how you'd justify it.

Because, in the Forgotten Realms, Monks and Paladins that are part of specific orders can multiclass with or without restrictions if their order allows it. Monk/Paladin multiclassing does not come from the deity itself, but the order to which those classes belong.

So, for example, members of the Order of The Dark Moon, a highly secretive and relatively small order dedicated to Shar, can multiclass to Sorceror; providing that their monk levels and sorceror levels always remain within two of one another.

Not all Sharran monks can multiclass to Sorceror, however.

A highly useful tool when checking the list of Monk/Paladin orders, devoted to a deity or otherwise, is this helpful little web enhancement to Faiths and Pantheons, amusingly entitled "Do's and Don'ts". While it doesn't list every single Order, it does list all the FR Orders that support some manner of multiclassing.

When in doubt though, be sure to check with a DM.

So, please, sit back. Relax. Share it with your friends and compatriots.

Faiths & Pantheons Web Enhancement

There you go. Happy now. See, that's actually a decent explanation for such a build, which is specifically what I was fishing for. You'll note that it's all very specific and limited in practice. Going "meh, I want to be an invincible mage, I'll multiclass monk" just won't cut it, so if you can indeed incorporate the stuff above into your character, you've got my commendations (not that it really matters at all whether or not I agree with your playing style).

Ok before this thread ends I would like to say one thing... I have played Delly for a very long time, and at the beginning I thought the same as Snowjewel did, but there is reasons for this. Mages have to learn their places in battle. I tend not to pull my crossbow on anything, for when you do, you are atracting monsters yourself. There are 2 main types of mages here.. Enchanters or Evokers, you need to find your place in them. If you enchant then do that and when it comes to battle you stay out of the fray at all times unless your using wands or scrolls. If you are a evoker then prepare spells to protect yourself most of all. As for the fact that DMs possess monsters and attack mages, I hardly see this happen. They usually spread out the attacks evenly so that one character is not targeed for destruction. There is little times DM actually possess monsters when you think they are, and when spiders drop down from the ceiling, trust me I have had that happen many many times on Delly. And why did it happen, because i was to brave and walked to far ahead and did not know my place. The point to all mages is to know where you best fit in battle. If you do not have a good group, then don't go. You wouldnt see a strong Drow Wizard backed up by weak little kobolds. Mages must have the fighters to protect them in battle, and thats the way they should be played I think. It has worked for Delly a very long time.

"There once was a smart lad named Crosswind, Who, prudent and careful liked controlling, Master in computers, lored in teenage frenzy, He concluded a few things a wee hastily,

No offense taken from the accused, Who by his way of pointing was amused, At least 3 we are using the same computer, Really enjoying every EfU entertainer,

Taking turns in enjoying the game, Certainly not thinking the same, If two of us agree, not the third, Who does not think this post will be heard.

And if SnowJewel had many characters, She needs no help and phantom supporters, When it comes to making a suggestion, EfU team always pays attention.

To conclude on a fair battle of verse, There’s a rule i observe, whatever universe, Pointing fingers and accusing publicly Rarely settles a matter wisely."

I do love your post-reply though ! :D

Always carry a source of the spell shield, whether it's the memorized spell, scroll, or wand. Always carry elemental protection. When you notice DM spice, pop elemental protection and be ready to shield at a moment's notice. Some monsters have a hidden aura of invis purge. Hasted monsters of this type are good at singling out PCs. Carry a color spray wand and hope it works. Against stealthers, carry an invis wand. Don't draw attention with your flashy magic missiles and fireballs unless you're prepared to get charged.

I will say that after playing an abjurer, I haven't seen the need for enhanced spell breaches. Almost no NPCs ever have more than 2 spell protections at a time as do very few PCs. Enhanced lesser dispel has come useful a couple times, but buffs are better for the majority of encounters. GSF: Necromancy I've seen second-hand as pretty darn good in PvP.

SnowJewel, that's not a limerick at all. France loses the round.

Arh ! So much for the glory of France... :wink:

Don't worry i love you both.

Do both SnowJewel and her brother favour the mid-word capital letter?

LOL

At least this one lesson we'll learn: A limerick flame doesn't burn! So when you must go choose A good way to accuse A nice rhyme is where you should turn.

;)

-Cross

In place of a snappy lymric to express my feelings, I bring you you this youtube link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAN7Ts0xBo