Server events run by DM's are awesome. The DM's do a fantastic job of making them fun, and making it possible for any and all to participate. Overall, they make it wonderfully rewarding to join in.

That said, wouldn't it seem strange that I regularly hear people say "I'm never going to help in one of these again!" after it's all over?

Maybe not so strange.

Maybe s/he was, once again, looted while fugued.

Maybe s/he was, once again, excluded or overlooked when came time for gold/XP/item rewards.

Maybe s/he was, once again, one of those who respawned in order to help everyone on the quest, only to discover that raises were given to any who sat around doing nothing in the fugue while s/he died 3 times.

There are some suggestions I have to offer. But first, I'd like to make a point.

For the most part, when someone didn't enjoy the event, it's mainly because of other player's greed. We, the players, bear a major responsibility in making it fun for EACH OTHER. The DM's can only do so much. We have as much, if not more, responsibility to other players than the DM's. The DM's simply provide the world and events, it's up to us of what we want to make of it.

The first problem, looting the fallen, can only be addressed by ourselves, the players. Looting is lame, and I don't care what justification one makes of "well, it's IC for my character to do it". It adds absolutely nothing to RP. It's self-serving, and spoils everyone's day except yours. If you want to steal, that's fine, but do it with RP. Be a bandit on the low road. Take something, then hold it for ransom. Heck, take something and return it, saying "I caught a thief stealing this, here... um, is there a reward?" If all you do is grab their stuff quicker than their corpse hits the ground, running off never to be seen again, you're not IC, you're merely a greedy player.

As for the rewards for an event being unfairly distributed, I think it would be nice if the DM's placed the loot they intend to be evenly distributed in locked containers that can only be unlocked with a key, and then give that key to a responsible leader of the group. Or anything that would make someone the "gatekeeper" of the group reward. That would help minimize looting and distribution before everyone was present.

For XP, I know the DM's like to reward individual efforts, but I think it's important, too, to make sure everyone involved gets some base amount, regardless of how meager. Just to know they were noticed and loved. :D On two events I've been involved in, I've seen other players not get any XP when I did, even though they sent a tell to the DM. Even if they didn't contribute much, XP encourages participation in the future. If they behaved badly, I think direct dialogue by a DM to address their behavior would be more beneficial than leaving them wonder why they didn't get any XP.

As for "raise dead" scrolls/spells being provided, I really don't have a solid suggestion/answer. Perhaps make a number of raise scrolls/rods available before the quest to a healer in the party. Perhaps telling players to "stay put" in the fugue, if the intention is to provide raises at the end. Perhaps never give out raises at all, only do a direct TR if the DM feels that player shouldn't have died, or that dying somehow disrupts the quest. From the server events I've been involved in, one could conclude "never respawn, just in case raise dead's are handed out". Maybe that's the lesson intended. If so, I think the "new player" info, web site and forums should make it absolutely clear that respawning, while provided, is heavily frowned upon -- that if you're dead during a quest, stay that way until it's complete. Currently, though, those who contribute the most to the fight are often the ones losing several levels who could've used the raise the most.

Now, these are merely my views and suggestions. I don't expect everyone will agree, and I welcome criticisms or comments to add to mine.

(gets ready for the volley of water balloons to be hurled at her...)

DM'ing an event for at least 30 people makes it very difficult to micromanage XP and loot, though I am slowly getting the hang of it. To anyone who was looted or did not get any XP, do feel free to PM me, and I'll see what I can do to take care of you. Everyone was meant to get SOME XP, though I am positive I did not get everyone.

Cheers.

:oops: Wasn't singling out any particular event (such as today's awesome *spoiler* attack, for example -- many, many thanks, wcsherry, I can't imagine it was easy to coordinate with so many players and a server crash :D ) though I will say that some of the looting today is what brought to mind the issues (i.e., reasons I hear players saying, "never again".)

These sort of things are always tricky. I'd ask that players have a bit of patience, and would honestly hope that you all are not so rigid as to say OMG I NEVER DO THIS AGAIN!11ONE after one unfortunate experience that a DM was not able to clear up.

I love DM events, even though i'm pretty certain i've never lived through one. Then again, I don't live through the Town Hall Storage quest.

Anyways, death sucks, but live with it.

And looting too.

And being ignored.

A few things:

1) Raise Dead scrolls were handed out. Everyone respawned before I could find a priest to use them.

2) DMs did try to hand out some loot at the end to specific people they noticed didn't get anything.

I've often found its better to have the Mayor or an important NPC give out rewards rather than having a camp of stuff which invariably one or two people loot and run off with.

XP is pretty easy: DMs can always check EFUSL and see who has LESS XP or no more XP at the end of the event than at the start. At least, I'm presuming its easy to use to do that.

But presumably for that they need a record of everyone who was there, which in large events they may not know. Someone who was having lunch in the Crone shouldn't be getting DM xp for diploming with beholders or whatever (not that they'd mind, of course).

Is there a way for them to know who actually took part other than keeping a pen handy?

Just an additional though on this:

I think many players (myself included) tries to respawn ASAP at least partly to get his gear back quickly again, before it a) gets looted b) the server crashes and all is lost (which is not a rare thing to happen at bigger events).

So raise scrolls are fine, but I am quite sure that it will not make a lot of people stay put in the fugue waiting. The player face the difficult choice to choose between complete item loss or heavy XP loss. Noone is pleaseant, or enhance game experience.

Just an idea but maybe it can be better handled the following way: no scrolls are given, but if the DMs are thinking somebody made a good personal contributon to the event (and if I read correctly, this is the intenton) than this character can get the XP back he loosed by dying on the event. It is quite easily calculateable, just have to multiply his current XP with 1,33 the times he died. Or somesuch.

Or maybe good participation on DM events can get your char a special token which gives you a free TR once? This would be an awesome sign of appreciation from the DM team and a very big boon to the player. I suppose a lot of player would work very hard RPing and being active on the server if such boons could be earned.

If this can be established as kinda living tradition on the server I think the events would be better. Players would go for respawning ASAP, getting their stuff back fast and back in the action. Not to mention that raising someone still incures an XP penalty, which is still quite step.

My thoughts only, feel free to rip them apart.

I dislike seeing people respawn willy-nilly in the middle of an invasion or large event like this. When people do this ad-nauseum, it really breaks the immersion of what is happening. I understand that people do not want to lose their things, but there are precautions that can be taken that ensure this shouldn't be a large issue.

If the server crashes and you lose all of your things, especially during a DM event, it is very likely one of us will replace what we can for you. TR tokens aren't going to happen. Thank you for the suggestion.

wcsherry I dislike seeing people respawn willy-nilly in the middle of an invasion or large event like this. When people do this ad-nauseum, it really breaks the immersion of what is happening. I understand that people do not want to lose their things, but there are precautions that can be taken that ensure this shouldn't be a large issue.

If the server crashes and you lose all of your things, especially during a DM event, it is very likely one of us will replace what we can for you. TR tokens aren't going to happen. Thank you for the suggestion.

What precautions are you thinking of here exactly?

Surely, though, if everyone stayed in the fugue who got sent there the survivors wouldn't last very long. I respawned twice. I didn't know there were likely to be raise scrolls around, but even if I did I might still have respawned. I didn't actually take anything from my pack save healing and crossbow, before getting back in. Reasons were mainly knowing that the other people there were going to need all the help they could get to avoid being fugued themselves, particularly when playing a healer and not wanting to get back and find all the loot had been handed out and the awesomely RPed big bad had already buggered off, meaning I'd lost a level and been sat in the fugue while everything that would have been cool enough to mean that I didn't care passed me by. I did wait till someone PMed me and said that things had quieted down a little, though, as standing up on one HP in front of a ravening horde is just dumb.

I'd imagine at least some others had similar thoughts?

Bring someone you trust, and keep them close at all times if possible. Don't explore dangerous and decidedly hostile terrain if you're really terrified of losing your things. That is just off the top of my head!

You could try widening the radius of which you see other people taking things, and giving more detail as to what the person took, depending on the observer's lore and spot skill. Like "Gloves of Concentration" instead of just gloves. "Potion of Speed" instead of just potion. I bet this and other measures to bring some accountability to looting would reduce the amount there is.

As for the rewards for an event being unfairly distributed, I think it would be nice if the DM's placed the loot they intend to be evenly distributed in locked containers that can only be unlocked with a key, and then give that key to a responsible leader of the group.

This is a good idea. I'm going to add a chest/key combo that can be spawned by Dms next time I work on the module.

I also agree we should have some more "Mayoral Token of Appreciation" items or whatever - stuff with maybe healing spell/1day that the Mayor can hand out to everyone who participates in an invasion. I think those would be fun and wouldn't loot up the server too bad.

Edit by wcsherry:

This forum is not the place to discuss DM's or events from other servers. Thank you.

Warden - We did just that for a few characters, at least in the last event (give them more XP than they lost by dying).

Whoever suggested the key/lock thing...yes.

This will save me from spending time trying to figure out who oh, say, ran off with 3 out of 7 of the unique crafted items and wouldn't admit to having them, and who took 10,000 gold and logged - it's sort of infuriating, and makes me want to just directly give custom loot to people who I think deserve it, and to hell with everybody else, instead of making it available for the populace.

-Cross

Crosswind Warden - We did just that for a few characters, at least in the last event (give them more XP than they lost by dying).

Whoever suggested the key/lock thing...yes.

This will save me from spending time trying to figure out who oh, say, ran off with 3 out of 7 of the unique crafted items and wouldn't admit to having them, and who took 10,000 gold and logged - it's sort of infuriating, and makes me want to just directly give custom loot to people who I think deserve it, and to hell with everybody else, instead of making it available for the populace.

-Cross

I am happy to hear that (the XP giving), I am sure if this is becoming a tradition it would ease up the things for everybody.

I myself took two unique item during the event, but when WCsherry asked, I notified him immediately, and brought them back as he requested. But giving out unique items for deserving players the same way as with XP to compensate for dying would be a better way, definitely.

Reasons were mainly knowing that the other people there were going to need all the help they could get to avoid being fugued themselves... ...I'd imagine at least some others had similar thoughts?

Yes. That's exactly why I respawn during major melees.

I dislike seeing people respawn willy-nilly in the middle of an invasion or large event like this. When people do this ad-nauseum, it really breaks the immersion of what is happening.

From a player's perspective, I think the moment someone dies the immersion is broken, mainly due to dropped gear. Instantly, everyone in the party (especially the one who died) is focused on making sure the gear isn't lost to a server crash, or to looters in the party.

The reason I like respawning is because it gets the game back on track quickly, and avoids the above problem. If the gear problem could be solved (perhaps it isn't dropped at all, and goes with them to the fugue? perhaps the character is saved on the server side upon death so that all gear is catalogued in the event of server crash/looting?)

From an RP standpoint, I like fugue/respawning more than I like the negative hit points. When you go to the fugue, the player can't see what's happening. Whereas when their character is merely unconscious, the player can see what's happening until they hit -10.

I see respawning as giving the player the power to decide whether falling meant being incapacitated (and taking XP hit) or death (either perma or needing a raise.) If this is not the intent of respawning, and it's merely there as a DM courtesy to account for lag-death, etc., then strong language in all the places where server rules are discussed should make it clear that "respawning can be considered metagaming" as much as anything else.

Imagine this scenario:

Thor gets hit and goes to -6. The character instantly goes to the fugue, all gear going with him OR being saved out to the server in a way that won't be lost during a crash, and where any items removed by other players are tracked. Thor's player can't see a thing about what's going on back in the fight.

A body lies on the ground that the players can carry with them. At any time, Thor can respawn, taking an XP hit. Perhaps the amount of hit points Thor has gone negative determines how long he has to wait before he can respawn. Perhaps if the damage didn't put him at more than -10, the XP hit will be significantly less. Perhaps the "stabilizing" script can track the negative hit points on the corpse while Thor waits in the fugue, and that Thor is raised if his corpse gets back to zero.

There's only one concern players will have that will break immersion: "will you respawn, or should we carry your body?" Minimal immersion distraction.

I really and truly hate it when people loot during an invasion, specially when the players is a member of a law enforcement area. I Believe a lower footman looted my Charctor once, but I had no proof, and the dm's made a shout saying they are not there to guard your bags. I think there outta be a script that prevents people from stealing out of other people's bags while there is an attack, and can only end when a dm turns it off.

This will save me from spending time trying to figure out who oh, say, ran off with 3 out of 7 of the unique crafted items and wouldn't admit to having them, and who took 10,000 gold and logged - it's sort of infuriating, and makes me want to just directly give custom loot to people who I think deserve it, and to hell with everybody else, instead of making it available for the populace.

I feel your pain.

I've worked management 20 years, and I see a parallel between the workplace and {DM quests}. That is, it's difficult enough to plan workloads {creating a fair and fun quest} and oversee the process {running the quest}, let alone micromanage and watch over the shoulder of every single employee {player} to make sure that their every effort is properly rewarded.

The fewer systems in place that automatically ensure a basic level of equitable distribution, the more likey it is that the quietest worker {player}, irregardless of how awesome a job they may be doing, will go unnoticed. The manager {DM} is likely to begin rewarding those only who make a lot of noise (showing off/kissing butt/complaining.) From my personal experience, the more I try to personally watch every employee, the more likely I miss good ones. There's just too many people, and my attention is more likely to go toward either (A) problems or (B) those who are socially savvy versus quiet.

In the workplace, some terrific employees are lost. On the server, some terrific players quit participating.

Don't get me wrong, I think the DM's are doing a fantastic job. I have no real personal complaints. EfU is lightyears ahead of any other server. No system will ever be "perfect". But in anything, there's always room for improvement.

I don't claim to know the answers, but I do see some good players walk away dead, destitute and discouraged after server events while some below-par players walk away unscathed and looted up. Any methods that can be done to reduce that is a good thing.

I've been on several Dm events and only been rewarded a handful of times. Usually, it's no big deal because the event is fun enough by itself. I will say, however, that the problem of having too many people to notice everyone is very easily avoided. Take less people on DM quests. This relates to something else I've noticed, when I go on a quest and don't enjoy myself, or just decide to quit halfway, it's for one reason, there's too many people around to make any sort of roleplaying work. Go figure.

Is there any a way to set time limits on respawns?

It could be cool if the dm has a control to decide when a char could respawn, or set a time, like 20 minutes after the char's death. That won't break the whole RP feeling.

Beside I hate the "she's dead, lets get going." - "No, she's alive !" stuff.

I know it goes against the whole "please don't loot me" topic, but hell, that happens. If you are too affraid of losing your stuff don't take big risks, go with people you trust and make sure they know their jobs, use strategy, or simply chicken out and face the consequences.

The way I see it, if someone can only respawn after 10-20 minutes of his death (or when the dm allows to) could make everything alot more real, including the sense of danger.

Have you ever died three times in a row, all due to bad luck, and then logged in the Fugue Plane out of annoyance?

If this was added, then you'd get amazing characters burning out because of dumb luck and a rule which does nothing but make the server harder.

SkillFocuspwn Have you ever died three times in a row, all due to bad luck, and then logged in the Fugue Plane out of annoyance?

If this was added, then you'd get amazing characters burning out because of dumb luck and a rule which does nothing but make the server harder.

I concur there actually. A delay on respawn of 20 minutes just bites.

SkillFocuspwn Have you ever died three times in a row, all due to bad luck, and then logged in the Fugue Plane out of annoyance?

Nope, can't say I did. And I have to admit, I cannot find one example where that applies (not really creative today), since the server let you know in OOC that if you respawn back to your corpse you have a high chance of getting killed, again.

But if thats the case perhaps something like 2 minutes x Char_lvl (or even minute x char lvl) could do the trick.

Or, don't know, create some sort of "Hardcore mode", where the character is rewarded somehow, but he cannot respawn.

I've recently been on a few DM quests, didnt get a huge amount of loot or gold but I had a crapload of fun, and got a fairly good amount of XP. Also, I like the raise scroll idea in that it just makes more sense to me ((IC not like mechanically I would know about that)). Still its about the fun. The problem mainly comes when you are killed off at the beginning and you miss the rest. That could be bad. But then again, no system is perfect.

*trys to stay alive at beginning of DM quest*

Going straight back to your body is stupid, yes. But if you die in the last battle, and everything is safe in a few minutes, we have to wait 20 minutes? Why? I don't get why you want this. Most people, as far as I've seen, wait until someone messages saying it's safe, or at least eased off for a few minutes, and then you respawn. Hell, you could even explain it IC as 'playing dead' until the danger is over. Or that they didn't have a chance to revive you, thought you dead, and then after the battle realised you were only unconscious and revived you. Cliched, I know, but it is the easiest excuse. If a compulsory waiting time is enforced, what will that achieve other than making everyone have to stand around waiting with no IC reason? And have the person in the fugue even more bored and irritated? I can see a lot of bad points here and no good ones. Can you explain a bit better? Am I missing something?

I think this thread has sort of losts its usefulness.

LOCK!