I think the last changes for the ranger are a good idea and tend to equilibrate this class with the others. I would like to suggest to go further and make it possible for pure rangers to train in tumble. Why is that? Actually rangers are in general dex based (light armors or intermediate ones) and wearing a light armor is a requirement for the two weapons fighting style (ranger). However, compared to rogues and monks who can boost their AC via tumble (+1 bonus AC every 5 points in tumble): a ranger willing to use the two weapon style remains with a low AC. for instance a ranger with 18 in dex (which is already a lot) wearing a light armor (studded leather) will have a mere score of 17 in AC...! And he wont have the sneak attack, or the powers given to monks. This tumble skill as a class skill could improve the AC if trained (+1 lvl2 and +2 lvl7). This is the point i wanted to make, i'd like to have your opininon, would it be a good improvement or maybe a disbalance in the class powers?

Nothing is stopping you from taking tumble as a cross-class skill and SF: Tumble. Plus there is always expertise feat, parry skill, and feats that improve parry skill alot.

I don't see a need to add this.

Oh and rangers do not HAVE to be dex fighting leather wearing. You can wear fullplate or other armor if you took the feats.

However, its silly that rangers can use their dual-wielding feats in medium armor. That change alone would please me.

Oro, do you mean 'can't' rather than 'can'?

I think that rangers have to use light armour to use their dual-wield feat?

If you meant that at present they can't but should be able to i agree.

A little twist but enough of one to make them a little more balanced

The low-Ac really should go with Two-Weapon Fighting Rogues and Monk's get higher AC with lvls, but then again, I can easily see a ranger of equal lvl take either in a straight fight. The low-AC makes up for the fact that the ranger is effectivly getting all these two-weapon feats for free. Even if you only reach 7th-9th lvl on this server, rangers still get

These include Ambidexterity Two-Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting

So in exhange for high AC, they get 3 feats, which allows them to spend their other feats on ones like Expertise, Dodge, or even mobility which, in my opinion, is a very good tumble substitue for classes which don't have it as a class skill, since the primary goal of tumble is to avoid being hit when moving in combat, not gain dodge bonus's to armour all the time, its a nice plus but shouldn't be the main reason people use it.

Nero24200 The low-Ac really should go with Two-Weapon Fighting Rogues and Monk's get higher AC with lvls, but then again, I can easily see a ranger of equal lvl take either in a straight fight. The low-AC makes up for the fact that the ranger is effectivly getting all these two-weapon feats for free. Even if you only reach 7th-9th lvl on this server, rangers still get

These include Ambidexterity Two-Weapon Fighting Improved Two Weapon Fighting

So in exhange for high AC, they get 3 feats, which allows them to spend their other feats on ones like Expertise, Dodge, or even mobility which, in my opinion, is a very good tumble substitue for classes which don't have it as a class skill, since the primary goal of tumble is to avoid being hit when moving in combat, not gain dodge bonus's to armour all the time, its a nice plus but shouldn't be the main reason people use it.

A level one fighter can buy all the two weapon feats and gets heavy armor.

For example: If a fighter wishes to go the two weapon fighting route of a ranger--

At level one, both can have all the same feats. The fighter has heavy armor though.

By level five, the fighter has picked up level 2,3, and 4 bonus feat. The ranger gained an early advantage at level 1 since he got all his two weapon feats for free and got to pick another. He picked up a favored enemy bonus feat. He gets another one at level five.

Technically, feat wise--they're even. Yet every fighter feat is *better* than the ranger feats.

The fighter can use all those feats in heavy armor; the ranger only in light. While the fighter got three bonus feats, the ranger got 'favored enemy' which is really more like "half a feat" since its a bonus against one type of enemy, whereas the fighter has weapon specialization and weapon focus which works against all enemies.

This is not a very even trade off, and even allowing rangers to wear medium armor while using their two weapon feats makes sense. The ranger is not a fighter, he shouldn't necessarily have as high an AC and is more of a flanker with or hit and run kind of combatant; but his low AC makes even this needlessly dangerous for the class.

Yes, he could wear heavy armor and does not have to use two weapons: but if the ranger did that then you wind up with a really shitty fighter who can't use any of his class features nor get the bonus fighter feats.

On other servers I would agree that rangers are weaker, but here in EfU I think they have enough advantages to be balanced already.

Rangers get hide, move silently and track as class skills, and in EfU those skills let you do so much more than a character without them. I can't imagine that people without hide and move silently get to see near as much of the server as those characters with these skills, or, at the very least, they have to wait to get into groups to explore the server safely. And tracking makes exploration even safer than exploring with a rogue.

So rangers get three powerful skills on this server, attack bonus of a fighter, hit points of a fighter, two weapon fighting, and if you want to tank, a single feat will get you heavy armour for those tanking situations.

I think this server, more than many others, allows rangers to shine.

Oroborous Yes, he could wear heavy armor and does not have to use two weapons: but if the ranger did that then you wind up with a really shitty fighter who can't use any of his class features nor get the bonus fighter feats.

Rangers get hide, move silently and track as class skills, and in EfU those skills let you do so much more than a character without them. I can't imagine that people without hide and move silently get to see near as much of the server as those characters with these skills, or, at the very least, they have to wait to get into groups to explore the server safely. And tracking makes exploration even safer than exploring with a rogue.

You can take out stealth as a consideration when you start talking about a ranger getting heavy armour due to the armour check penalty.

However, spells and animal companion have not been mentioned. Of course if you compare a ranger and a fighter solely on feats you're going to arrive at the conclusion that rangers are worse. You're not taking into consideration half of their abilities.

A level one fighter can buy all the two weapon feats and gets heavy armor.

Theres also the fact that rangers get these feats as long as the wear light armour, fighters still require a good Dex score, which is wasted if they do wear heavy armour.

As a side note, rangers are the only class in which you can wear medium armour to start with and have hide/move silently as a class skill, meaning you -can- still be sneaky whist wearing the armour. If the check penalty is that bad, there are -plenty- of items on the sever that give skill bonus's. A full-equiped rogue can have skill bonus's in the 20-30 region, what's 3 or 4 points off of that?

Wand use, massive AB vs. favored enemies, excellent stealth/detection skills, spells that allow rangers to get the best stealth of any class in the game, full BAB progression, animal companion, movement speed bonus in the wild, access to special store, access to special equipment....

It's also not really possible to make it so rangers get tumble as a class skill.

Everyone is forgetting Animal Empathy! I love that skill!

Also, rangers can rock as hard as anyone. I have seen several bad-ass rangers on this server.

When being stealthy they don't need to be wearing the heavy armour, they can keep two sets of equipment on them; the "I am being a scout set" and the "I am frontlining set".

So, really the high armour check penalty doesn't need to be a factor. However, there are enough items with stackable hide and ms bonuses on this server that you can get the full plate armour check penalty down quite reasonably.

The fighter can get two weapon fighting feats in heavy armour, but he can never get his stealth skills near the rangers.

Also, everyone is talking pure mechanics, Rangers also provide a different way to RP your character, which is important as well.

I think that Rangers on EFU are especially awesome, for most of the reasons that Howland mentioned. The mere fact that they can use divine wands is worth a few feats, to me. Then add in all the EFU-specific gains Rangers get, and there isn't much to complain about.

Tumble as a class skill isn't needed.

Ranger, rogue, holy matromony,

Look, rangers are weak alone, but when they hit like lvl 6, and they are an archer build with rapid shot, My ranger could own a lvl 7 ftr easily if he was in the wild and running and hiding. If he took a rogue lvl ((He's dead now so Don't worry)) He could own anyone on this server in a few shots if they had no potions. Also, I had 22 ac with guy and he could still own a group of 6 goblins...shaman included.

This adds nothing to the suggestion at all, Thomas. Try and tailor your posts to match the thread topic please, and keep them streamlined.

While, personally, I think it's odd that rangers don't have tumble as a skill, as the archetypal ranger is an active outdoors type, I don't think it's necessary to see it added here.

As for bonuses like Animal companion, are they really feasible? I rarely see people with their companions or familiars out, they are far too feeble and the threat of XP loss is ever present.

And tumble is acrobatics. Since when are rangers acrobats?

-Cross (No, Legolas does NOT COUNT.)

Portions of tumble are acrobatical, though it still does include basic movements like dives and rolls.

Personally my opinion is that rangers should have tumble as a class skill but the change is not terribly necessary. Personally I picture a ranger being very agile and tumbling around while slashing at enemies with two swords or shooting a bow. However, I understand if not everyone feels this way. Also, giving rangers tumble might be overkill on overpowering the already amazing Ranger class. My advice is that those who wish to play rangers but are worried about the AC should definately either compromise chain armor with a shield and sword or make use of the most important Ranger skill, hide and move silently. In fact, you can even do both according to the situation. That's my suggestion and what I do. But then, my Ranger is multi-ed as a Rogue and has tumble so ya.

Agreed that Animal Companion for a Ranger barely helps at all. It could be said that spells might help but only at higher levels and only for pure rangers. However I think that Rangers should have some kind of bonus for attacking from the flank. Whether it be an extra +2 to attack or a 1d4 damage bonus. I understand that a Ranger with Sneak attack would overpower everything, but then doesnt it make sense that someone who can hide, move silently, and hunt should know where to hit for a kill (especially with a ranged weapon)? Again, I understand its not feasible mechanically but I personally picture a Ranger doing it.

Rangers already have such bonus: Favorite Enemy. +1/+1 per 5 levels.

Alright, thanks for all your opinions. I must say i read things i had not really taken into account for the ranger class. This is indeed a small improvement but still it would give the class an advantage. To be honest, i got this idea because i am playing a ranger and i multiclassed it as a rogue (whichs allows him to get tumble). And the result is awesome, i was just wondering what the ranger would become with this skill as a class skill.