First off I do tend to get a little carried away sometimes, so I apologise in advance if I cause anyone any offence.

Right, I’m going to start the ball rolling with this one. I think almost all the improvements are great and add character to the classes, except for one single change, which really breaks the feeling of immersion for me,

Charisma bonus is applied to strength/con while raging. (Example a fourteen charisma barbarian would get +2 strength and +2 con in addition to the base +4str/+4con. His rage would be +6 str/+6 con.) Negative charisma will also reduce rage bonuses using this same formula.

I like this idea, but I’m having a hard time understanding why charisma was chosen. Vurbag is an ugly bugger, even by half-orc standards, and no one ever listens to him when he tells them to do something, but why would his physical appearance and charisma effect how angry he gets?

From the way I see it a barbarian who is raging has tapped into his willpower. A mind over matter type thing fuelled solely by anger, shrugging off wounds that would kill others simply because he refuses to die, or smashing through enemies with in-human strength because he’s just that angry. A red haze has covered his sight, and all he see’s are enemies to rip apart, nothing is going to stop him, he doesn’t care if half his leg has been hacked off, it’s a flesh wound and is nothing compared to what he’s going to do to them, except….except…

Except he is ugly and no one listens to him, oh well he’ll just lie down and die like the rest of them.

See where I’m going with this?

I think instead of charisma it should be based on wisdom, since that literally defines a persons strength of mind, there willpower, mind over matter and all that stuff.

The rest of the stuff I’m fine with and I think it will all work well.

So, any thoughts?

Strength of mind, maybe, but how often are berserkers known for their brains? Charisma is strength of personal character.

Changes are awesome!~! We will see how they hold in balance, but a -very- -very- good incentive to avoid "maximizing" stats involved in battle mechanics.

And they open up a lot of interesting new build options, I love 'em.

-10%, 20% damage reduction.. ... <-- ouch, dont know about this one, it sounds strong- but probably isnt.

I'm not sold on the current changes. I think they penalize-and yes I do say penalize-the races most likely to become barbarians. Dwarfs and Half-orcs who both suffer a CHA penalty automatically.

In other words, to even have a useful Rage as a standard class ability and power-they must raise their CHA to 12. To benefit from this improvement to the class, they need to raise CHA to 14. (Because both races suffer an automatic -2 to CHA).

I also don't think CHA makes any darn sense at all. Wisdom does a little at least.

I smell a hint of "nerf" the races most likely to be barbarians in the way this was set up. Albeit, a min-max'ed half orc with 20 STR and 6 CHA overall will still remain more powerful than a non-min-max'ed character--here is the problem I have. If you actually play a 6 CHA character, and roleplay it well--this now penalizes your barbarian and essentially makes his rage entirely useless.

Even a standard dwarf or half-orc with an 8 CHA which is average for these races will have a +1 STR/CON rage which is essentially useless unless you want to do even more stat tweaking to ensure you're STR and CON are odd numbers.

I'm not as angry about this change as I was the original idea to ban barb/fighters etc; but I'm really not sold on this one either.

It looks like a "nerf with a carrot" approach rather than a "How do we make barbarians more rockingly cool?" change.

We're going to weaken "min/max'ed" barbarians-and by min/max'ed we mean any standard stat rolled dwarf or half-orc barbarian.

Which I also point out is really not friendly to new players, let alone a number of barbarians already made who are going to essentially lose the ability to rage or see it severely handicapped.

And all of that was accomplished without:

1) Making barbarians all that much better. 2) Without adding any real feel or definition to the class. 3) Without in any way actually addressing the concern of min/max'ed characters in terms of overall balance. 4) Without much real concern for the effect it has on pre-existing barbarians--especially those made by ANY player who just uses the standard Bioware starting package or stats without any thought of min/max'ing anyway.

I can't really fathom a reason for this change actually. I'm entirely missing the thought process behind it as a player.

lovethesuit Charisma is strength of personal character.

Truly kickass storybook heroes have high charisma, because they have the personal strength to pull through when the going gets rough.

Wisdom, on the other hand, is common sense, perception, and so forth. Which is helpful, but doesn't relate to kicking ass!

Oroborous Even a standard dwarf or half-orc with an 8 CHA which is average for these races will have a +1 STR/CON rage which is essentially useless unless you want to do even more stat tweaking to ensure you're STR and CON are odd numbers.

Ah!

Well then I entirely retract everything and now this makes much more sense.

I'm going to go find some ketchup for my foot.

lovethesuit Strength of mind, maybe, but how often are berserkers known for their brains? Charisma is strength of personal character.

Except I would say that brains = intelligence, not wisdom. And I see no problem with a barbarian being wise.

The reason I'm advocating wisdom is that strength of mind and sheer determination/will power is directly related to it.

I just don't see any personal-strength thing in charisma.

From the D&D glossary page (which I'm sorry is my only source for this kind of thing,

"Charisma : The ability that measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Force of personality should be how good you are at forcing your personal wishes onto other people. It' leadership, not determination, it's persuasivenss, not willpower.

Truly kickass storybook heroes have high charisma, because they have the personal strength to pull through when the going gets rough.

Again I'm going to have to say that I disagree, while it is common, it is not a requirement. The idea of ugly hero's that everyone hates has cropped up in a number of places, from Frankenstiens monster, to the Hulk, to Marv from Sin City. These are people who are hero's (or atleast not unsympathetic bad guys), yet will have low charisma.

-20% damage reduction is very helpful for barbarians, who already take oodles of damage from their low AC. It's better than +25% max hp because if you heal a barb now, you get 25% more out of it. These changes when taken in as a whole is a huge improvement to the class. Previously many people might have thought a dwarf/half-orc barb was a no-brainer but now it isn't so; each race that could become a barbarian now has its own advantages and disadvantages, which I think is neat.

Oh and my previous barbarian (barb/rogue multiclass but mostly barb) had 12 charisma. He wasn't handsome or smart or wise, or even a nice guy who expected others to like him, he was awkward in social situations, but he had a certain force of personality that he called upon in tough times. I would've liked to play him after these changes.

<3 for tommy.

Song of Orpheus

An eight Charisma character would get +3/+3, a six charisma character would get +2/+2. We're operating on a base of +4/+4, with charisma modifier affecting it from there.

Yeah, thats much better. I'd still think it should be wisdom based, but I'll accept this as a desicion of the dm's.

On our server charisma is NOT physical appearance (although it may be related to physical appearance). It is indeed force of personality.

Nitrax I just don't see any personal-strength thing in charisma. From the D&D glossary page (which I'm sorry is my only source for this kind of thing,

"Charisma : The ability that measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

Force of personality should be how good you are at forcing your personal wishes onto other people.

Force of personality is a great deal more than how you force your wishes onto other people. It is the resource of strength within yourself. It is also, in my understanding, your ability to force your wishes upon yourself, i.e., convincing yourself that you can keep going, keep fighting, that you are strong and that what you are doing is worth doing, even in the face of implacable foes.

Characters like Marv are physically hideous, but those that get to know them have a respect for them which comes from that personal strength. I would argue that Marv had very high charisma, from the fact that he says of Goldie that she was looking for the biggest, baddest guy in town to be able to protect her from whatever was coming, and he was the man she chose. That shows that he makes an immense impression. If he had low charisma, he wouldn't have garnered the same reaction.

It is also, in my understanding, your ability to force your wishes upon yourself, i.e., convincing yourself that you can keep going, keep fighting, that you are strong and that what you are doing is worth doing, even in the face of implacable foes.

You see, this is my problem, what you describe is willpower no other way about it, which is in the rules directly related to wisdom and via the will saving throw,

again from the same source "Wisdom : The ability that describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

Edit : Just read Howlands post, I was unaware of this, shall I atake it that will power has also moved over to charisma ?

Any thought of adding any of the other 3.5 ranger abilities?

ie.

At 2nd level the ranger either gets rapid shot OR Two Weapon Fighting. At 3rd level the ranger gains toughness as a bonus feat. At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion (rather than 6). At 6th level, a ranger gets Improved Two Weapon Fighting (rather than 9) At 9th level, they get Evasion as a bonus feat.

Just curious.

Nitrax Shall I take it that will power has also moved over to charisma ?

Willpower and force of personality are related, but not the same.

Willpower, in this setting, is the ability to know when to act, and when to restrain from acting.

If you look at the "Serenity Prayer":

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference.

Wisdom and willpower give you the serenity to accept the things you cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference.

Force of personality give you the courage to change the things you can, once you have decided, through wisdom, that you can change them. A low wisdom character might decide to change things that they can't change, and use that high charisma to try their best to change them anyway, perhaps even succeeding.

Wisdom also affects the ability to discern between your own emotions and spell effects that attempt to change them. It allows you to differentiate between natural impulses and magical, external ones.

So the short answer to your question is no, willpower has not shifted over to Charisma. But they are closely related ideas in some ways.

You could look at the charisma bonus as the barbarians ability to appear more fearsome due to their personality.

A barbarian with low charisma can rage, but they lack the ability to look fearsome and throw their opponents off balance, therefore the opponents defend themselves more efficiently and the barbarian's rage loses some of its effectiveness.

A barbarian with high charisma rages, but also has a strong personality and knows how to make his rage appear even more fearsome. This unnerves opponents, they panic, defend themselves poorly, and the barbarian can hit them harder and more efficiently.

That is how I would look at it.

That's why taunt, intimidate, bluff, UMD, and persuade are charisma based.

I think the the changes to would be nice, but at the same time I am getting the idea they will become to powerful.

Druid changes *thumbs up*

You've all been there. The tiny 5 foot french teacher who could shut up the whole class with a look? While the 6'7 bearded geography teacher in the next room, who can quite easily pick her up in one hand, can barely get them to sit down, never mind work? I think it's that kind of thing.

"Rage" basically means that the character is infuriated and grows in strength and toughness, so it doesn't matter how the target "views" it. Rage doesn't invoke fear nor reduces the target's attributes. It just makes the raging-character stronger, right? With that, it doesn't make real sense to me why Charisma should have anything to do with it...

I didn't see the druids needing boosts, however, adding tracking to the druids make both ranger and druids even more alike. Perhaps it should be a different type of boost?

Otherwise, the rest seems great.

The barbarian changes were basically implemented to make min-maxed six charisma barbarians less powerful, and to promote more balanced and interesting barbarian characters. You can try to rationalize it so that it makes sense, but it's really not how rage works, so that's the bottom line. That being said, fighter/barbs did get to keep their sweet multiclass, so nerfing their rage a bit isn't really going to kill anyone, I wager. And it will promote more-balanced characters, which will make barbarians far less stereotypical and one-dimensional.

In terms of giving druids tracking, I think a more general "nature sense", that may reveal the presence of nearby creatures but gives no indication as to their direction, size, etc, may be more appropriate. Rangers are already a very poor class, and giving their tracking to druids does not really seem to make much sense.

just on Charisma being about force of personality - its also the stat used to resist effects like a bodak's death gaze (woohoo, go Nicki when everyone else was dead!).

I think of Wisdom as a clarity of mind, but Charisma is a clarity of the soul. Hence I agree with Charisma affecting Rage - a sheer will to existence.

I'm also concerned about Druids receiving tracking. Not that I think its inappropriate, its only when you look at the benefits of Rangers in comparison that it becomes a problem. It does however depend whether the tracking is implemented at lvl 6 at the equivalent of lvl 1 of Ranger.

In this, CHA is what the DMs want it to be, and while I can agree with some of their stances I can also agree with the other arguments, in the end, that's just the way it is.

On the other hand, Druids were given Track, which was a huge perk of being a Ranger. Giving it to druids, which already are pretty damn powerful, seemed pretty unfair.

I also echo Preston's thoughts on all the extra feats and et cetera.

Regarding tracking, the druid tracking should be -much- worse than ranger tracking, since a big part of tracking is number of ranger levels.

Adding feats is complicated, however currently there are plans to give rangers a very hefty AB bonus to their favored enemies.

Okay the barb dmg reduction sucks. Why? CAUSE OUR PARTY GOT PWNED FROM A GROUP OF BARB KOBOLDS. Seriously, we had no idea to expect on the portal quest, Ihad like a gazillion potions and I still died, and our weapons didn't do squat.

I'd agree with Inquisitor in the regards on Druid Tracking. I found it strange and unusual that a druid would naturally learn how to track (without the use of a feat). The tracking feature is more or less what seperates a Ranger from the other classes and makes them 'special.' I don't think it makes sense for the class, personally, though perhaps I've missed a key component (or just disagree entirely) as to why it makes sense for a Druid to track others.

I also understand the Druid tracking is considered worse, but I still personally find that a tough sell.

I do like the Barbarian movement changes, but do agree with most of what has been said against Charisma being used. Still, that's been discussed alot already, and I won't get into it.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Okay the barb dmg reduction sucks. Why? CAUSE OUR PARTY GOT PWNED FROM A GROUP OF BARB KOBOLDS. Seriously, we had no idea to expect on the portal quest, Ihad like a gazillion potions and I still died, and our weapons didn't do squat.

It's damage resistance, not damage reduction, so this doesn't really make sense. 10% damage resistance means that one out of every ten damage delivered isn't received. You should still be doing damage to barbarians with non-magical weapons.

spawnofweevil You've all been there. The tiny 5 foot french teacher who could shut up the whole class with a look? While the 6'7 bearded geography teacher in the next room, who can quite easily pick her up in one hand, can barely get them to sit down, never mind work? I think it's that kind of thing.

Sure. But consider which one of those two described you'd rather face if they were to descend into a murderous rage? Right. Barbarian rage is not a frown.

Personally, I'd sooner have made rage unusable in heavy armour before turning barbarians into angry paladins.

Maybe bard/barb will be the new flavour of the month. The only way I can accept this change is to realize that it was done purely for mechanical game balance reasons and that making sense wasn't quite so important. That I can accept even if I don't like it, but attempts to justify charisma strengthening a rage...I'd advise people to preach to the converted or save their breath.

Now it's time to think of a way to justify strength or constitution strengthening magical spells so we can fix sun elf wizards.

Huge evidence in lots of fantasy novels for constitution to be absolutely vital to spell casting. The more people cast the more it tires them out and stresses their bodies. Better con in these books would be important to a caster.

Shannara novels, Lord of the Rings, Malazan Empire to name a few.

All depends on how DMs want to run it, and interpret it. That is why it is almost impossible to move from one PnP game to another without having to use a whole bunch of house rules.

It all depends on your view-point. I agree with these changes because I see a barbarian's rage as a semi-magical ability. The charisma used to intensify a barbarian's rage is similiar to a sorcerer and his inate abilities as he manipulates the weave out of sheer force of character. Rage is not Joe Stupid getting mad because he spilt chocolate milk all over his shirt, it is calling upon your determination and inner strength that charisma represents, it is a barbarian's force of character that has been honed to unleash destruction for a few moments.

Concerned wins.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

On the Charisma modified Rage discussion, which I see no real reason to continue, I'd have quoted the PHB description of the Rage ability--if it wasn't because it would support the argument against, which I don't agree with personally. I would recommend those with access to Unapproachable East read the part on Rashemi barbarians, as that is more or less how both I and Concerned see it.

As for druids getting tracking, well. Unless that's removed again I sincerely hope rangers will be getting some more nifty perks in a very near future.

(sorry about this, I misclicked)

Any thought of adding any of the other 3.5 ranger abilities?

ie.

At 2nd level the ranger either gets rapid shot OR Two Weapon Fighting. At 3rd level the ranger gains toughness as a bonus feat. At 4th level, a ranger gains an animal companion (rather than 6). At 6th level, a ranger gets Improved Two Weapon Fighting (rather than 9) At 9th level, they get Evasion as a bonus feat.

Just curious.

That comes in NwN2. Great stuff. While you're at it you could make it so that druids can use spells in wild shape for a cost of the effects of one feat. If they want. And also put Elephant hide effects aswell, etc.

Concerning this whole Wisdom/charisma thing,

I don't think that there is only one way about this. I think streength of character comes from both Wisdom and Charisma. It is true that a charismatic person may be able to convince himself to go to the end and see things through. Sorcerers use Charisma because they draw it from within, they use their own personal character and feelings to use that destructive Fireball.

Wisdom is more the way he reacts to what is around him, to choose when to back off and when to push further, who to choose as friends and who not to (coupled with Intelligence, of course). It does represent strength of character in this way. Druids use Wisdom because they are so tuned into their surroundings that they can feel the way the nature around feels, and use that to their advantage. That's why they get tracking.

Rangers also share this link with nature, but it is less powerful, and they use their own personal skills to track. In NwN2, druids get survival as a skill. This is probably the best we can get to show this. And no, druids aren't oh so powerful, I played one and it isn't easy to stay alive without a full plate. Clerics spells are a bit better, and the wild shape only means that you can get a higher AB. Of a few points.

The will save check is in a way on the wrong caracteristic. The book has a few things wrong with it.

I agree with the DM's on this one.Really, just put those 4 points in Charisma. Or use a Gold dwarf rather than Shield dwarf.

Barbarians Charisma is different to that of normal Charisma. When one of them cries out and enters rage, they should make little kiddies scream. They can even make big adults scream. You are going to flinch and think a bit about what yuoare doing when a 2 meter large Greataxe wielding furious barbarian charges straight at you.

Lot of circle talk here...

1) Wisdom is how YOU perceive all the subtle hints of the outside world and prioritize them in regards to your own well being.

2) Charisma is how you project yourself to others.

3) Rage really has nothing to do with either, it has more to do with not being tied down by social constraints and "taking care of business" no matter what the cost to you.

Now, I could care less about the changes, really doesn't make a difference on how I intend to play my character. Though I would rather see Rage go into the "triggered" abilities rather than a player use one. Like the old 2nd Edition Berserker. Take x% of damage or fall below x% hp and you make a Will Save (self control) to NOT go into rage, no choice about it. Taking the choice out of the playters hands and into the mechanics takes a lot of the "advantages" of rage.

And BTW, I do play a Half Orc Fighter/Barb, and I only rage when I fail *roll Will Save*, don't wear heavy armour and even think I have good enough IC rationale of how the combo works and why it happens.

End of the day, no metagamer is going to care about the Charisma anyhow, but it makes that Str 12, Cha 18 raging Skald (Bard/Barbarian) very interesting to play... hmmm

Um, rage has absolutely nothing to do with society and larger issues. It's getting mad with style. Come on, this isn't that hard to understand. Charisma is Charisma.

And rage is lack of control. The two have nothing to do with one another.

If rage is a lack of control, then why can you control when you rage? Don't over analyze, you wind up with reducio ad absurdum.

If you'd read above you'd see I'm against the player deciding when rage occurs. Rage should have a trigger (hp loss or threshold) and a failed Will save befpre it can happen.

That's just not going to happen, and it is not the way that this server or neverwinter nights deals with the ability. Rage is an ability that a barbarian learns to use and master, not just getting angry and not being able to control yourself.

Well song of Orphous, our weapons were doing squat, we had about 6 party member up against 4-5 kobold warleaders and we still lost. Our party member were reporting that there weapons *Were not doing any damage* to them.

Thomas_Not_very_wise Well song of Orphous, our weapons were doing squat, we had about 6 party member up against 4-5 kobold warleaders and we still lost. Our party member were reporting that there weapons *Were not doing any damage* to them.

Thomas, this should be discussed in the Bug Reports forum and should ideally be accompanied with screenshots of the combat log. I am highly skeptical that the situation is as you described - one possibility to consider is maybe these NPCs drank blur potions? Or that someone in your party was exaggerating? Either way, take the discussion to a different thread in the appropriate forum, thanks.

I'm in the "didn't buy it camp" for Cha affecting rage. It seems contrived to the extreme. The reasons behind it are obvious, but I was much happier when min-maxed tank characters were dealt with by lesser levels of DM love than by a frankly wince inducing twisting of the DnD mechanic. Force of personality being associated with some (mystical or not) capacity to fly into a hypertrophic killing frenzy? Yuck, just plain yuck.

I will also go out on a limb and say I dont think rangers needed any buffing. They are admittedly less powerful until they get above level 10 or so, and therefore never quite hit their stride on this server. But ditto with all spellcasting classes. The simple fact of the matter is that rangers have fighter BaB, with stealth and stealth finding skills. They are amoung the best PvP classes in the game. The problem is new players try and tank with them, which is foolish. And until they get sufficent stealth gear, they are just lame fighters. When they do get it, they are very very good. Moverover the buffs do nothing to solve the most common problem that most rogue builds benefit from a lvl of ranger, and most ranger buiilds benefit from a lvl of rogue.

The other changes to the Barb are fine, imo.

I quite like the changes, the only thing I don't agree with is negative CHA adversely affecting rage.

Consider the CHA-focussed class Paladin, whose abilities are augmented by their charisma bonus. They don't receive negative adjustments to their saves and other abilities if they have under-average Charisma.

Thanks for the comments so far.

But I'm curious, scrap, as to why you think Rangers are so good, or rather, so not crap.

I don't see what that sneak thing does for you in PvP, given that an invis pot is just, if not more effective for a fighter, and a Ranger won't even get a sneak attack. He'll just get the drop, the same BAB as a fighter, but much worse AC.

Is there something I'm just not getting?

I like the changes.

I saw Howland mentioned that rangers will be getting a bonus to the ab against their favoured enemy.

I'm all about the Fav:Enemy feat. I think that's what should be buffed since it's unique to rangers, and it's supposed to make rangers cool.

I've seen many rangers that were hunters of [their fav:enemy] but it's sometimes difficult since the bonuses the feats give you really don't help in the hunt of that particular creature.

What if...

(and keep in mind that I'm not sure if this even can be done. I mean i have zero skill points in Toolset, IRL. The only time I start the toolset is when I misclick it in the launcher menu.)

... there would be additional bonuses given to the ranger depending on what his fav enemy is?

eg:

hunters of rats and spiders (vermin) got a bonus against disease and poison

hunters of abberrations got some kind of bonus against their charm spells. So maybe a better will save. (I know that there are many abberrations around but I'm focusing on the ones present in this setting. And this really wouldn't help much if you were hunting hook horrors or hulks...)

hunters of anmials would have bonuses to spot and listen (i figure they should be better at tracking than the rest)

Hunters of elves, dwarves, gnomes and all the Favourite Enemy: PC Race ones would get bonuses vs that race's favourite class. So someone with FE: Elf would be better at fighting wizards- that's a bonus to taunt. Someone with FE: Dwarf would get a bonus to dodge or tumble.

Would be great if hunters of undead would get the possibility to create holy water flasks if they also got the brew potion feat.

etc.

Now this was just an idea. Even if it can be done it's alot of work. I was just thinking about Oro's summoner themes on Coa and thought it would be fun if that kind of specialisation could be done for the Favourite: Enemy feat. And if this could happen I'm sure the DMs would know better bonuses to give each variation of the feat.

I think universal bonuses dependent upon the type of favoured enemy is a cool idea. Probably very difficult if not impossible to design, implement and balance though.

Ladocicea I think universal bonuses dependent upon the type of favoured enemy is a cool idea. Probably very difficult if not impossible to design, implement and balance though.

Thanks Lado. But yeah, I had a feeling this idea would be very hard to implement if it's at all possible. Thought it was worth to suggest it though.

But I'm curious, scrap, as to why you think Rangers are so good, or rather, so not crap.

I don't see what that sneak thing does for you in PvP, given that an invis pot is just, if not more effective for a fighter, and a Ranger won't even get a sneak attack. He'll just get the drop, the same BAB as a fighter, but much worse AC.

Is there something I'm just not getting?

Ok, long answer for Lad.

Stealth is much, much better than an invisibility pot for a variety of reasons. Firstly it does not run out. This allows the slow and careful stalking of the PC you want to smite. This gives you the opportunity to really pick your moment. Rangers I have played with have used this to devastating effect. The capacity to shadow a PC for 30 mins until they leave the city or equivalent allows PvP opportunity's a fighter will never have. If you have only 3 turns x the number of pots you wish to drink, you just have to cross your fingers and hope you find the opponent somewhere that is convenient to attack. On the defensive, you can walk the city all day in stealth, and that fighter that is looking to smite you will -never- see you. If you are a fighter with an inviso pot, you get no such luxury, you will have to fight or flee on the opponents terms.

Secondly, a fighter with an invisibility potion has to give up all his AC if he wants a chance to use the invisibility potion properly. If he is wearing plate and a shield, he is at -17 stealth, and people without any spot/listen will hear the player as often as not in close range. Even with no armour on, his lousy stealth means people will often hear him. The only thing an invisibility pot can be guaranteed to do, is allow a rush from across a room/area that creates a bit of surprise, since it will only get heard at the last moment.

Thirdly, invisibility is easily countered. True seeing, see invisibly and invisibility purge all last for a long time. See invisibility is a common drop, and moreover can usually be bought from both PC and NPC vendors. On the other hand, clairvoyance/clairsentience*** and amplify last about as long as a sneeze. Not only does one require real life clairvoyance to know the right moment to drink one, but with the high 20's and 30's stealth common on this server, you are still making a roll to see/hear the stealthier.

At a recent assassination attempt my plate wearing character spent no less than 6 inviso pots (which bites financially) trying to do get a specific character in a pack. At the same time a stealth character was sitting inside the pack most of the time, and was able to pick their moment with impunity. At the same time as they were killing the character, I was being chased by PCs who had heard my clumsy steps, and drunk appropriate potions.

The actual PvP is much safer for a stealth character, because a non-stealth character who drinks a potion of invisibility is hoping for a rounds grace while the other combatant finds the see invisibility hotkey. However a stealth character can inviso/stealth, darkness/stealth, blindness/stealth, or cheesy old wall tech/stealth and be completely safe from reprise from most characters. If the stealthier wants to buff pre-combat, they can always drink an invisibility potion, and with their stealth skills they are unlikely to get detected.

So why is a ranger more useful than a rogue? If your rogue has taken a lvl of ranger for duel wield, has taken KD as a skill, and has a steady supply of accuracy potions, then they will be better. Its WTFpwn - accuracy/KD/sneak attack/accuracy/KD/sneak attack ad infinitum. However even then you need to make sure you kill the opponent quickly, as the round they turn to face you you are doing basic damage, and you will have moderate (at best) rogue HPs. Moreover the opponent may turn around and KD the rogue (who has no Discipline skill), putting them perpetually on the back foot. The ranger does not do as much damage on the first round as a rogue, but will continually do steady damage. Bab = damage, in a little realised and understood equation. That extra 2 or 3 BaB will be a significant number of extra hits in a normal fight. Even when buffed, the duel wield/KD combination puts some serious negatives on the attacker to hit. In addition the ranger gets 2 attacks two lvls earlier, from lvl 6 onwards s/he is drinking haste and slapping down a consistent four attacks a round.

The crux of the matter is, unbuffed, the ranger can fight toe to toe with any character accept the fighter and expect a good outcome. Buffed and coming from stealth, even a fighter is a legitimate target, though the fight will be more difficult. All the other classes are going to really struggle to avoid a ranger WTFpwn.

The fact that ranger can also run solid spot/listen, means that fights vrs other stealthy characters are easier than for a fighter. If a rogue/bard/ranger does inviso/stealths for a regroup and a second attempt, the ranger actually has a chance to spot them that a fighter never will. The main reason rangers are not more popular is not to do with power, but to do with difficulty. They require skill to play well. In addition, due to the low lvl of the server, they require good items for good stealth, though this applies equally to bards, rogues and druids, who also have poor stealth at low lvls.

Say what you like about how ineffective you believe the fighter/invis pot thing to be. One word. Zau.

As far as rangers going toe to toe with other characters goes, they'll never be anywhere near as good as a fighter. Their ability points have to be spread thinly, let's remember. If you want any kind of AC whatsoever you'll have to invest in DEX which means your CON (hp) or STR (ab and damage) may suffer, and your AC will still never be as good as a fighter's. If you're going for spells, you're going to have to plonk some on WIS too. A fighter is also going to have more combat feats. A ranger is most certainly not a fighter with light armour and stealth. They're much weaker overall.

As far as comparing them with rogues goes, rogues aren't a toe to toe class. Rangers are, since they're not more useful in a flanking or support position (barring the bog standard +2 ab that's available to everything). So as toe to toe fighters, Rangers will never be as effective as the rest that fulfil the same role, be they Barbarians (nice hp and rages as standard, and, if you like, EfU's buffs too), Fighters (I needn't elaborate) or monks (stunning skills, flurry skills, super buff potential and so forth).

They're definitely in need of help.

"The crux of the matter is, unbuffed, the ranger can fight toe to toe with any character accept the fighter and expect a good outcome."

Except for the paladin, the barbarian and the cleric.

With their own spells, the druid and the bard could probably take him too...

;)

-Cross

*Mage casts Hold Person* Ranger dead

I'd really rather not have this thread deteriorate into a game mechanics/class balance thread, however your points are well taken - having stealth/anti-stealth is great, regardless of class particularly for PvP. I'd also add that divine wand use is another great perk for rangers. I've often said that every class in NWN, without exception, can really shrine in their own ways, particularly in EfU.

However, the changes we'll be making will make pure ranger builds more desirable (they are not presently) as well as give some flavor to the favored enemy feats which presently don't do a whole lot.

As rangers maybe or maybe not pwn, they are special on their on way. A few days ago, my rogue and a fellow fighter tried to hunt down someone. Only we couldn't find him. Had one of us had tracking skills... This, I think, makes up the point. They might not be the strongest, but has great skill nonetheless.

And yes, I do agree about adding some flavor to the Fav' enemy. This might equal them mechanically.

Damn it, had another thing in mind, though it faded away :?

Anyway, point was made.

A quick further note:

While it is important to make rangers as a pure class as compelling to play as pure-class other classes, it is equally important to provide incentives for people to stay with ranger, as opposed to sampling levels of other classes.

-Cross

Crosswind A quick further note:

While it is important to make rangers as a pure class as compelling to play as pure-class other classes, it is equally important to provide incentives for people to stay with ranger, as opposed to sampling levels of other classes.

-Cross

Agreed, and that is why I think that buffing the FE feat is the key to having more pure rangers around. Since the feat does improve with level. (Every 5 levels or so.) The bonuses this feat gives should be of a higher degree of pwn, though, to encourage folks to stay with ranger. But it has already been said that plans for such are on the way!

Rangers wouldn't be too bad if FE applied to AC and if Rangers didn't lose their Two Weapon Fighting feats in medium armor.

I agree with Oro. Or, at the very least, start counting chain shirt as light armor and not medium. In 3.5, that's the way it works. This also means bards should be allowed to use chain shirts.

Really all you need is a script giving the bonus feats/ arcane spell failure decrease to the chain shirt depending on what class wears it, excluding all classes other than ranger or bards. Would that be possible?

I think a good teamalways has a bit of everything. That means a ranger with tracking is always very useful.

The FE feats are widely considered in the normal game to be crap. You get only 5 of them, and they don't do much. With no further boosts later on, other than the feats you may take, involoving sacrifing precious feats, they just seem to be pointless. Although in NwN2 you get the bonus FE Power Attack feats, they don't change much. Gving them more boosts, mainly AC boosts would make them more interesting. But keep in mind that you only get 2 of them on this server, and that means that most players will go for the ones that cover many types of foes, including Elves and Vermin, or pick those that will help the most in PvP, in other words, Humans, Elves and Dwarves. So although the bonuses will add flavour to the class, they still will have a limited effect.

This is what I think the DM's should add, from what I've gathered with other players and what I'd like : You normally get +1 to damage, hit and saving throws against the type of enemy you pick (I think). I say make that +1d3 damage, +2 to hit, +1 AC, +2 on saving throws and +1 to Spot, Listen, Move silently, Hide, and other skills.

Further increased bonuses later apply on the FE, depending on when you took it ( for example, every 3 lvls you get +1 to all of these bonuses. So that makes at lvl 8 you have 1d5 damage and +3 AC on the first one and 1d4 damage and +2 AC on the second one ).

This is, of course, at the decision of our kind and friendly DM's :wink:

Favored Enemy Rangers study their enemies and develop a keen understanding of the weakness of various creatures. //I copied only effects://

Bonuses: Rangers gain a +1 bonus to Listen, Spot, and Taunt checks against their favored enemy, as well as a +1 bonus to any physical damage applied to the enemy. These bonuses improve by +1 every five levels. For example, at 1st level, a ranger chooses aberrations as his favored enemy and receives a +1 bonus against them. At level 5, he chooses dragons for his second favored enemy. He now has a +2 bonus to damage (and Listen, Spot, and Taunt checks) against both aberrations and dragons.

As you see, these do improve with levels, although, its too slow, especially on this server where you barely get to lvl 9-10.

The character I focus on is a ranger and I can say that other people have told me I'm wasting my time. My input is that, even though I think that Rangers are really awful fighters (on any quests past the early level ones, I've learned to just avoid close fighting-the baddies have no trouble getting through leather armor and there really are no magic armors to be had to even it up), I have been able to make myself pretty useful on forays into the Underdark 'wilderness'. An elf ranger usually can spot creatures well before anyone else in the group is aware of them and warn the party about imminent encounters. Not to mention the tracking ability, which I am pretty impressed at (kudos to whoever came up with that) Hard experience and expert advice has shown me that concentrating on bow skills and just warning the group she's with that swordfighting is not her forte is the best way to go.

I have seen a lot of ways to ballance things-- Some of the easiest are making class specific gear, class specific quests, etc.

Kinda makes me wonder why there is so much magical clothing in the world? I am sure there could be more race specific stuff too-- but maybe that would just bog the game down too much.

Of course, for realism (yeah-- right! A fantasy game, and we are talking about realism!) the clothing and armour for the smaller races should not fit the larger ones, and vice versa.

I am sure if a half ork gave my halfling a set of his armour, my halfling would use it for a house.

^_^

But I digress-- I have seen servers that have used this method to promote the "useless" prestige class of Harper Scout. On that server, there were special places only Harpers could go, and special Harper gear that really made up for the total lack of combat skill. The same can be done with any class/race, I imagine.

I apologize for not responding to most of this stuff - the answer is "Thanks, but we're aware, we've got a really good grasp on game mechanics and what can be coded, and we have cool ideas. But keep suggesting stuff, by all means!".

I will just throw into the mix, while you're suggesting things - class specific gear does not encourage people not to MC out of the class. 1 level of ranger is as good as 20 for the purposes of using a "ranger-only" item.

-Cross

1 level of ranger is as good as 20 for the purposes of using a "ranger-only" item.

For that reason, specific class items only encourage multi-classing with one level =(

I have found my character to be very dynamic. I have been front line, using my two weapon fighting to battle the foe, used my stealth and ability to cast camouflage (which lasts a very long time) and get the upper hand on my foe. Yes, does not get much advantage in the armour class but played with care and using missile and melee weapons effectively can be useful alone or in a party. The ability to rest with only a bedroll has a benefit as well, as I been able to trek far and wide and familiar myself with the Underdark where most have not. All class have benefits and you have to look at the class to see where best suited and the role-play value you are looking for.

As for the conversation on invisibility and stealth, I for one saw the difference. In a battle with Trolls, I was on verge of death and used my invisibility potion and back peddled out of the fray. However, the troll sensing death followed suit and the chase began. It wasn’t till after a bit of shock that I was still being chased that I managed to enter stealth mode did I lose my pursuer, without it I would have been troll food.

Invis = out of sight Stealth = driving them out of their mind

Berens.

For that reason, specific class items only encourage multi-classing with one level =(

There is another way

Instead of Useable only by: Ranger How about Not useable by:Barberian Not useable by:Bard Not useable by:Cleric Not useable by:Druid Not useable by:Fighter Not useable by:Paladin Not useable by:Rogue Not useable by:Sorceror Not useable by:Wizard Though that might be overdoing it just a bit >_>

There is no such function on items.

Crosswind I apologize for not responding to most of this stuff - the answer is "Thanks, but we're aware, we've got a really good grasp on game mechanics and what can be coded, and we have cool ideas. But keep suggesting stuff, by all means!".

I will just throw into the mix, while you're suggesting things - class specific gear does not encourage people not to MC out of the class. 1 level of ranger is as good as 20 for the purposes of using a "ranger-only" item.

-Cross

I'm sorry to disagree, but I *have* played on servers that had class items with requirements such as 4 rogue levels. This was a place without any haks or override whatsoever..! If you are interested, I can go about and find out how it is done.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I *have* played on servers that had class items with requirements such as 4 rogue levels. This was a place without any haks or override whatsoever..! If you are interested, I can go about and find out how it is done.

It is possible but it would require scripting and editing a lot of current loot and just generally not in our estimation be a good way to go about it.

Darkovan

Crosswind I apologize for not responding to most of this stuff - the answer is "Thanks, but we're aware, we've got a really good grasp on game mechanics and what can be coded, and we have cool ideas. But keep suggesting stuff, by all means!".

I will just throw into the mix, while you're suggesting things - class specific gear does not encourage people not to MC out of the class. 1 level of ranger is as good as 20 for the purposes of using a "ranger-only" item.

-Cross

I'm sorry to disagree, but I *have* played on servers that had class items with requirements such as 4 rogue levels. This was a place without any haks or override whatsoever..! If you are interested, I can go about and find out how it is done.

Don't be sorry to disagree! I'd love to know how that's done. Thanks for the tip!

-Cross (is it by changing the onequip script? I'd hate to have another set of checks for the server to run through every time something gets equipped)

Ok, this is what I learned.. I dont know the correct syntax' for it but:

the script runs when you equip the item if you have the right classes, it allows the item to be equipped if not it unequips the item. endif :p

Hope this helps anyone interested, even if it won't get implemented in EfU.