Though i have checked not sure this has come up before.

The spell True Seeing has been changed to not see stealthed opponents automatically, though you can still see invisbility etc.

I would like to suggest that True seeing also gives you a boost to Spot, maybe +5 or 10.

It is a high level spell, and by adding this i don't think it over power it for the server, but would make it more in line with other level spells, at the moment i think it is underpowered, why not just use see invisibility, the other things it sees through are pretty rarely cast e.g. phantsmical killer etc.

Flame or lock away if i am miles off mark

Since people don't really get to cast it, this really isn't much of an issue.

Don't understand Thrawn? I can and know of +5 other PC that can... or am i misunderstanding what you say? :)

Had it had the bonus to spot, I would have use it more....

Thrawn Since people don't really get to cast it, this really isn't much of an issue.

Actually, Thrawn, though arcane classes don't see level 6 spells (which True Seeing is for them), clerics can cast True seeing as a level 5 spell, or as a level 3 spell if they have the animal domain. I'm not really advocating any change to it, but it should be noted that the spell is cast by PCs in game.

On the other hand, if you want boosts to spot or listen, Elf999, Clairaunience/Clairvoyance is available to wizards and sorcerers as a level 3 spell which grants +15 spot/listen bonus for a rather long duration.

True Seeing should not give a spot bonus, I'm afraid you're unlikely to persuade me that it should.

I'm not really 'looking' for something :), but yeah i guess Clairvoyance potions will work from a mechanics point of view

I just think that the spell is a little underpowered atm compared to other lvl5/6 spells

It's worth noting that it does give you immunity to phk.

I've been on servers that incorporate True Seeing as basically an immunity to Illusion spells (eg. invis, but also phantasmal killer or weird), and tosses in Darkvision as well.

Marfdasko I've been on servers that incorporate True Seeing as basically an immunity to Illusion spells (eg. invis, but also phantasmal killer or weird), and tosses in Darkvision as well.

You're on one right now.

Mechanics Changes True Seeing: no longer automatically sees stealthed opponents. The effects that this spell grant are See Invisibility and immunity to illusions (which includes color spray, phantasmal killer, and so on).

PfE if it's the right alignment also protects you from PhK AFAIK

PfE if it's the right alignment also protects you from PhK AFAIK

Lots of things (immunity fear, mind blank, etc.) protect from PhK. I don't see how it relates.

And yes, True Seeing gives immunity to illusions in EfU.

I'm kind of going out on a limb here, but True Seeing should also let you see through various polymorphs and stuff, right? I know (or, I'm pretty sure) it's not supported by the engine, but perhaps it could be used as an RP tool to see through druids' animal forms and similar? Obviously this use would require a verdict of some kind from a DM, but if it would be the case, there's another highly useful aspect of the spell.

*Rolls Persuade check* = 1 + 0 = 1

Sounds as though it is staying the same...

Just for reference:

PHB's description of True Seeing You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus her vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not cancel concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjuction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Additionally, the divine version of this spell allows the subject to see auras, noting alignments of creatures at a glance.

On the other hand, it's also apparent that the spell should do a bit more than in currently does in EfU. It should give Ultravision in addition to See Invisibility (if it already does, then the mechanics description needs updating); it should negate (for the caster of True Seeing only) the concealment given by various illusion spells (I don't think immunity to illusions does this, feel free to enlightenment me if it does); it should reveal the true form of polymorphed creatures as Wrex pointed out (though this might require a DM anyways); and it should give temporary access to 'Detect Alignment', which could be added to the listener system if this was a desired change, though I'm not sure if it's possible to distinguish between the arcane and the divine version of the spell within NWN. Personally, I'm not a fan of alignment detecting as it tends to ruin a lot of plans a bit too easily, but it's how the spell should work in PnP anyways.

Howland True Seeing should not give a spot bonus, I'm afraid you're unlikely to persuade me that it should.

I'll give it a go.

This suggestion is actually getting a second thought from me (on IC/setting/game logic alone) because of what Howland has said about sneaking in the past! I think Howland has said a rogue's sneak becomes more than just a hiding person at high levels. I think the idea behind this was that it's more like a supernatural ability and so it makes perfect sense for an epic level character to be hiding whilst being in the middle of a street, in daylight, with nothing to hide behind and standing next to someone if their h/ms scores were legitimately somewhere in the hundreds. This is something I find plausible. But then if it's truly something supernatural or magical, then it's not how things really are. It's a means of obscuring, similar to that of transmutation or illusion.

I'm not sure how this theory of sneaking can be entertained whilst a no spot bonus on True Seeing can be enforced.

I'm largely indifferent to spot bonuses on True Seeing. It's my opinion that a sneaking person is a sneaking person, and whether you're seeing the true reality of things or not won't change that, yet some people may feel, for balance purposes, that it needs this kind of a buff, and I accept that and support that change if it is the general consensus of the playerbase.

I agree with Ladocicea. If the sneak skill becomes supernatural, like it would seem to be as you might not spot rogue in dark clothes on a plain area which is totally covered in snow, I think there are reasons why then again it should give bonuses to notice that sneaking attempt. I'm not supporting either of those, but there isn't much more ways to do stealth in NWN than like it is done so then again would be fair that True Seeing would give spot bonuses.

Anyway, True Seeing isn't the spell that is used too often although it is very handy spell and yes, it's possible to get it even! There are still lot more important things than this, but I wouldn't mind True Seeing getting buffed with a little spot bonuses.

So, basically the problem is that it's hard to define when rogue's skill to sneak is supernatural and when just ordinary sneaking where the True Seeing wouldn't work, it's maybe best to leave how it is

A small search bonus would probably be a better fit.

I'm trying to see why you think that is so, Starry, and I'm failing.

The whole pro bonus argument as I have put it hinges on the subject you are trying to see being magical or "wrong" or "untrue" in nature. When spot checks are made in game, it is usually to see sneaking PCs/NPCs. Other times it is rolling checks to see if you noticed your party member quickly slip some extra gold from the Dragon's treasure chest into his pocket, and no one is likely to apply True Seeing for such, and if they had it on already they could simply deduct the bonus from the check themselves.

This is why it ought to be only a spot bonus, and not a search bonus. I can't see any justification for the search bonus, unless all traps, hidden doorways, trapdoors and so forth are magical, which I'm fairly sure isn't the case, whereas all sneaking PCs (according to the above mentioned theory) are.

The idea that sneaking is a semi-magical ability is mostly a rationalization for how stealth is implemented in NWN, and backed up also by the fact that to get absurdly high stealth the character -is- highly dependent upon magical stuff (magic rings, spells of camouflage, and so on).

The main reason I'm against it, however, is for reasons of game balance.

d20 3.5 System Reference Document states:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

The primary reason I suggested this is because, for issues of game balance, Howland seems averse to a spot bonus, and since I do not believe there are any spells that bestow a search bonus upon the wielder, aside from Fox's Cunning, it would be a way to make it a more useful spell without damaging stealthing characters.

For a more logical reason, pertaining to the gameworld itself, the spell description explicitly states that it does not help spot hidden creatures. Hiding is not a pseudo-magical feat, and epic hiding, while essentially supernatural in nature, does not really apply on EfU, save for possibly some epic-level NPCs.

Now, the spell-description does say that it can help spot secret doors hidden by magic. I believe locating hidden doors is a search check, as is locating traps. While it is certainly true that not all doors in EfU are magical, and not all traps are, a search bonus is a better fit for an addition to the spell, because the spell does have a limited application in regards to search, whereas it explicitly states it has no regard to hiding creatures, which would be associated with spot.

For additional rational justification, consider the "see as they are." Hidden doors and traps rigged along the floor are far more likely to fall under this line than a creature simply hiding behind a wall, or some sort of cover, because as the spell description states, it does not confer X-ray vision. Hidden doors and traps are, by necessity, typically exposed at least in some fashion on the surface upon which they reside, which would allow for a True Seeing spell to, sensibly, be able to help boost search to a degree. Per the spell description, it does not help spot mundane hidden doors, but a search bonus would merely boost the user's ability to discern out-of-place things, and thus it seems a sensible means to add slightly more power to this spell.

In short, search does make more sense than spot, if you look at the spell description. You can try to make a weaker argument that it should grant a spot bonus as well, but again, Howland seems disinclined to allow it, so search seems a reasonable alternative.

Let me go on the record as stating that sneaking as a semi-magical ability is a stooooopid way to think about it. HiPS is a semi-magical ability. Sneaking is just sneaking.

If you're sneaking in the middle of the street, and not being noticed, you're blending in with the crowd.

If you're sneaking in the woods, you're walking softly, and staying out of sight.

If there's nowhere to hide, and you're sneaking, you're just doing a darned good job of being quiet and keeping where folks aren't looking.

Plenty of other ways to rationalize it without making it magical, really...

-Cross

Starry, I think that's a fair appeal to PHB and a fair attempt to satisfy the PHB requirements and the supposed problem at hand, but I'm not convinced by rationalising search bonuses into the game world based solely on the proposition that according to the PnP rules some magical doors can be seen with TS and no sneaking person can. I can see you've pre-empted and tried to circumvent the "Just because some doors are magical and would be spotted with TS, doesn't mean a bonus should apply to all doors" problem with

Hidden doors and traps are, by necessity, typically exposed at least in some fashion on the surface upon which they reside, which would allow for a True Seeing spell to, sensibly, be able to help boost search to a degree.

that.

But, to me, that doesn't even nearly qualify for specious logic. It seems to me, in every way, indefensible.

Though again, at the end of the day, I'd also agree to search bonuses if it is generally accepted that that is the way in which this spell needs to be balanced. I just don't think it can be rationalised in IC terms, though.

And lastly, I agree with Crosswind on everything he said.

I'm not sure what's controversial about the idea that high-stealth is a semi-magical ability, given the way to get very high stealth in EfU is to be reliant on magic gear or spells (tiny rings that help you move more quietly in a magical way, or the camouflage spell that according to its description actually changes the appearance/color of your skin to help you blend in).

Our policy regarding stealth is (for example) that if you hear someone but not see them, you can't positively ID them - this makes no sense if stealth is the same way as it works in the real world (if I hear someone moving around in my bedroom, and look directly at them, I'll see what they look like). Likewise the same issue with hiding in the middle of a brightly-lit, uncrowded room and not being seen.

I think EfU handles stealth very well, but given the way NWN is built and designed it's just much simpler to say that stealth has a magical component to it at the very high skill ranks.

Again, though, the objection to TS giving a spot bonus is one of game balance. True Seeing is a wonderfully powerful spell and needs no help.

True Seeing is useful in its present form

However, when compared to other lvl 5 cleric spells at least e.g. Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Raise Dead etc. It seems weak, given that it doesn't seem to confer much more in the way of protection/benefit than See Invisible (cheap potion) and Protection from Alignment (lvl one spell). I do take the point about Illusions and am interested to hear how this could work.

I am not suggesting an increase in Spot which would mean every sneak would be seen by any caster, just a boost to it, which could be argued removes the 'magical' or potentially any item given bonus, hence why i suggested 5-10.

Your average Ranger/Rogue of lvl 5+ is still going to stay hidden, from a Cleric or Mage who casts this, especially in any dark areas.

It would mean that instead of only seeing lvl 1-3 as you do now you might be able to see slightly higher PC with this spell.

The setting is strong for sneaks i think. I have a lvl 6 Ranger/Rogue, who because i have focused on it and have magical H/MS items (which stack on this server), has sneak in the wilderness of +27 (unbuffed), and in towns +23.

I don't have any unique items.

With that character in mind i think that a small boost of a spot bonus to this relativily high level spell, might give characters who can cast it a chance to see him. Given that it is turn/level, it would still have to be used wisely.

If only it could be scripted to detect sneaks at their base stealth, sans items and spells!

Metro_Pack If only it could be scripted to detect sneaks at their base stealth, sans items and spells!

If this is possible, this would be very cool. It makes the most sense from a canon perspective and still allows for sneaks, just rarely :p.

Not wishing to commit Necromancy on this topic but...

Are the DM's convinced for a +5 spot say to be added, to remove what could be argued the magical bonuses avaliable IG?

Or is the topic dead and the answer no?

I strongly agree with the idea of using true seeing to help spot stealthed characters.

If you are hiding via magical means, spells which penetrate magical means should work.

As it is, I think stealthed characters are actully a little overpowered considering that they can hide themselves from PC's by simply walking around the corner and clicking the Stealth button.

Nero24200

As it is, I think stealthed characters are actully a little overpowered considering that they can hide themselves from PC's by simply walking around the corner and clicking the Stealth button.

Actually, if you consider there is crowd, or darkness or dunno, this is possible RL (ignoring magical means, I speak of the overpowering). See the movie "The Departed" (Which, by all means, realistic, I assume), There is the scene where Mat Daemon disappears in split second, when his pursuer lost eye contact.

Actually, if you consider there is crowd, or darkness or dunno, this is possible RL (ignoring magical means, I speak of the overpowering). See the movie "The Departed" (Which, by all means, realistic, I assume), There is the scene where Mat Daemon disappears in split second, when his pursuer lost eye contact.

That could be possible with any character though, the ability to walk lightly would have little to do with that

I have seen stealth used as a means to escape even if the player would know they are there e.g Running into a small room with nothing in it except for a bench, stealthing, then walking right past the character and was able to do so in terms of game mechanics because the player didn't see him at the time of the stealth but did see him go in.

No matter how good in RL you are at hidding, you would -never- be able to hide in that situation, so the magical means cannot be left out.

My argument for it being overpowering is based on this fact. I have personaly witnessed characters do as described above, then abusing it to do things such as - Gain sneak attack when fighting alone. - Flee without having to drink an invisability potion, despite being in plain sight for the most part and out of sight for only a fraction of a second.

The stealth ability is -very- easy to abuse, and its not as if just using it mundane is so bad, I once had a character who escaped from a watchmen -not- by using stealth, but simply by staying behind objects and remaining out of sight, I even got a tell from the player with him along the lines of "How where you able to get out of there?". Despite not using stealth, both players hadn't even noticed me slipping out the door.