My computer here at work takes forever to search/display so I apologize in advance if this has been discussed in length before.

I think alignment change is a potentially very touchy issue and some considerations could be implemented by the DM involved in PC actions or maybe just on the scripted quests.

I've had my character's alignment changed twice, both times away from lawful. I am not complaining about the actual changes, because it's pretty cool and adds depth to the experience, but it needs to go both ways I think.

Both times they were due to things that my character could not possibly have known about, and therefore were not conscious acts or even avoidable. It puzzles me why an entire party should experience an alignment change by a short brief act of one of its members with no RP related to the change before or after it.

Example - a character in your party insults and attacks another character. The act itself is a chaotic act. The RP of the people around should dictate whether they get an alignment change as well. If a character lectures them about, then kicks them out of the party when they don't listen to it, and makes a report to the Watch, those are some pretty lawful acts. If they laugh and slap them on the back after the fight, that is an unlawful response.

Perhaps it just takes too much time to DM these things that closely, but I would prefer no alignment changes issued at all if they aren't going to go both ways. Or make them affectable by scipted quests so that the DMs don't have to micromanage this perhaps?

If scripted quests already can change alignment (I'm not sure if the one that changed my character's alignment is even still around), then there should be other scripted quests that would counter it. Perhaps there are, but of the dozens of different scripted quests my characters have been on, only one changed alignment .

Any time you do job for the Watch (the Law), I would think it's a lawful act. Sure you get gold for it, but couldn't an option to take half or no gold showing that you were doing it for only the sake of helping the Law be added?

Maybe a couple options on the portal to the surface quest in the Canal Ward....get pissed and kill the guy, chaotic shift. Turn him into to the scripted guard just outside and get a lawful shift. Lots of creative ways to subtly change the quests to allow shifts one way or another.

Maybe these are abusable by peeps trying to affect alignment changes for their dwarf barbarian to get his dwarven defender PrC, or for their pally to become fallen and an evil rogue/assassin/blackguard, but isn't that what player development is all about?

Going from 85 to 78 in the Law/Chaos balance isn't a big deal, but I'm RPing my character to be LG and getting even minor shifts toward that when he is RPed that way would personally be very rewarding to me, and perhaps others.

I don't think there should be any "scripted" alignment shifts... maybe thats just me. Even alignment shifts done by DMs should be done if the player is willing (I know, people playing alignment specific classes and using alignment specific items would cheat with this, but most of the ppl I know would do it for the RP)...

Why do I think that? Because sometimes lawful people do alot of chaotic things, and sometimes chaotic people will do lawful things. Only the dangerously extreme are lawful or chaotic, or good, or evil, ALL the time. And thus I don't think specific acts should be able to bump you one way or the other.

Again, doing my job by telling you all things you already know. =)

I made that post above, but my crap puter had logged me off, so it went in as "Guest".

I'd like to also point out that the DM that affected my character's alignment change was very cool about it, and went out of his/her way to say to send a Tell in game to DMs if our character is doing something that should affect alignment change.

But....it's awkward sending a Tell on DM channel essentially "begging" for an alignment change. Scripted quests that allow you to choose an RP option might free busy DMs from this and add a cool RP option to these quests. Using "Intimidate" would seem to be an automatic chaotic shift, whereas turning down some/all loot awarded might be lawful shift.

Just a thought, and sorry about the ugly "Guest" in the list there!

Being lawful is hard. Being chaotic is just more easier. Get nasty, smash stuff, rob a grave, randomly push over some grannies.

Do lawful stuff to get lawful points. It takes effort, but it'll be noticed if it is worth it.

I disagree that being lawful is hard. By and large, most people are predominantly lawful. How often does one break the law as opposed to follow it? You gotta be a real piece of work to be chaotic most of the time.

People may not always good, but are usually lawful. It's almost as if on the server, lawful behavior is the norm, and chaotic behavior is the exception. And so, is noticed and the alignment is changed as a result.

What has to be done to effect a shift to lawful? Perhaps Paha you received lawful shifts for your character and would share what kinds of things they were? Is that discussable here? Do you have to send an app to the DMs that you want to get a lawful shift if you are already lawful? I know a character that went from evil to neutral, and the DMs were great on that. Is that the only way we can do it? Tell the DMs and then get them to shift you every time you think you MIGHT have done something lawful?

I don't want to bug the shit out of the DMs about something that they may not even consider deserves a lawful shift. Unless that's the way the DM's prefer it be handled, then that's cool.

The IG acts of most visible PCs are lawful. Making a sending, forming a group, and doing a job together for the Watch is a pretty lawful act. How many chaotic players are played chaotically most of the time, and how many evil characters are played as evil? Some of the really good ones are/were, and we can name them. Maalgor, Squeegle and the old and new drow assassins were awesome, and were played as evil certainly, likely chaotic unless they were organized and LE.

I'm sure they got significant alignment shifts for this. So, what is necessary for for lawful shifts? Or good shifts? "Hey DMs, My character is REALLY not breaking laws right now?"

Being a jerk or taking extra loot isn't really evil or even chaotic. It's selfish. I think evil, half-orc barbarians that do jobs for the Watch SHOULD get alignment shifts to lawful and eventually lose their barb status - just the way paladins are can lose their pally status.

Stealing stuff IG should be a chaotic shift, such as raiding tombs if a questgiver says not to. And it could be a cut and dry case of a scripted alignment change. I just think it would give us options as to how we develop our characters and how they respond to situations.

The player of an evil character should be able to list their evil deeds. So too with every character to justify their alignment. I'm just wondering what a lawful player can list to justify their alignment, and am suggesting that they might be able to consciously choose IG acts that shift their alignment to the way you are playing them. I know the evil RP stuff has been addressed before, but I wanted to relate it to scripted alignment change as well.

And if alignment change is going to be (is) part of this server then I'd like to see some development of this process, or at least to be informed about how better to effect this process.

I'm not at all unhappy or feel that it is unfair, just that it could be juiced up somehow that I think would be cool. A pally watching an orc fighter butcher the questgiver for the portal quest is silly with no consequences. Sure you can RP it, but it's a lot more powerful for the pally to get an alignment shift because he let it happen. Watch the pallys and clerics start jumping when their divine powers are in jeopardy!

If scripting alignment is not what the Dm team wants, I just want to be informed of how or how not to address this via IG use of the DM channel so as clear up my and possibly others' confusion on this.

Thanks!

Clarification would always be welcome at any rate. I've got evil shifts before when I was sitting still, not doing anything, because I was still caught in a party where I couldn't even SEE all of the members since they were zones away, and apparently one of them or two did something naughty.

I agree with your post, however :

Gwydion It's awkward sending a Tell on DM channel essentially "begging" for an alignment change.

I disagree here. I don't think it's begging if you're 'showing off' what your character is doing!

DM messages are your friends. We're lazy people. You send a DM message telling us you're doing something that will entertain us, y'know, we'll show up!

And scripted alignment changes aren't in EfU for a reason - people would spam them for 100 points of whatever.

A question to the whole Lawful thing. Why does lawful always have to be about following laws, as opposed to ideals? I mean in truth LE characters rarely follow the law per say. I realise this is a bit off topic but oh well.

No, it's a good point, heels.

Following legal laws is only one example of Lawful behavior. Following any sort of external rules or guidelines above all else is lawful, generally speaking.

Exceptions to this are priests who follow the teachings of chaotic deities, but then again, these deities are usually not so big on formality anyhow.

EDIT

Actually, it's not so much an exception as a side-bar. A CE cleric of Cyric is still Chaotic, and primarily driven by their own desires, much like Cyric. Following his teachings isn't going to get a big Lawful shift though.

Also, I'm typing this under pressure at work so it's probably rambling and non-sensical to the casual reader!

I think it's a true and interesting observation that it's far easier to get chaotic points than lawful points, no matter what your alignment is. I believe it's because lawfulness is something to be noticed over a long period of time, ie it "accumulates" slowly, where as it's easy to get a whole bunch of chaotic points from a single event if you're radical enough. (This, I think, is what Paha meant to say with lawfulness being "hard": it's not that it would be hard to act lawfully, but it's hard to get noticed often enough when actually being lawful.)

This should be offset by gaining lawful points more often, but unfortunately, I suppose no DM has the time to keep such a watchful eye on the doings of PCs. And so the points tend to swing only one way, as Gwydion pointed out. I'm not sure what the solution could be, aside from the DMs simply being a bit bolder in giving small amounts of lawful points for consistent behaviour.

Heya,

Don't mean to show how easy our DM team is to sway :D , but my character just got an alignment shift towards lawful when he made a sending to create a war party to fight the Chosen.

A small thing, but it sure felt good. It was the same DM that lowered his alignment towards chaotic, so it's nice to see consistency, and much appreciated.

So I guess the simple solution is to hammer the DMs with Tells IG to alert them what and why your character is doing something, and to see if you can get alignment shiftage as a result. :P

For the record, can we see what kinds of things MIGHT engender an alignment shift, or would the DM staff rather it be a case by case thing to avoid the inevitable...."Well in the forums you said X, so I demand Y!"

Thanks, I really appreciate the good feedback so quickly. I've never played another server for more than a couple hours, and this type of helpful attitude by the DMs really makes it fun.

It's funny how getting even 50 DM XP or a 2 point alignment shift is more rewarding than getting 1500 XP from killing trolls, but it is! Makes you feel like your character is alive, viable and recognized, which I think we all appreciate.

Only one thing I need to say: Alot of the guards might very well be chaotic... lawful doesn't mean following the law per se... but its your personality urging you to follow law.

You can break the law all the fricken time and be lawful.

Case in point?

The Godfather (from the movies >.<)... I would say he is Lawful Neutral. The judge. But he'll kill cops, steal, blackmail... he gets rich off of breaking the law. But he still follows a law. His law.

=)

First, let me say that there will not be any scripted alignment shifts. They are easy to abuse, and people can do things against their alignment knowing that they can just run a quest and get it back. It completely defeats the point of alignment shifts.

Second, the thing I don't thing many think of alignment as a sliding scale. If you are lawful already, you have to do something even more lawful to shift from your current position. However, doing something chaotic is extreme behavior for you, and is more likely to be noticed. Doing normal lawful things aren't likely to move you back. You need to do something to really catch attention. I do give out lawful points, but only when it is warrented, not because someone wants them.

I don't know what that was meant as a response to, Thrawn, but I'm well aware of that. I think what I pointed out above is still true. How many times have you seen a chaotic PC receive a large shift towards lawful, even though by the rationale you just explained it should be just as common as lawful PCs receiving large shifts towards chaotic? On all of the servers I've played -- and I've played my share of chaotic PCs too -- I know none. In fact, I don't know a single instance of a chaotic PC losing their chaotic status, whereas lawful PCs losing their lawful status (paladins in particular) seem to be relatively abundant.

There's an inconsistency here that shouldn't be just dismissed.

I give lawful shifts all the time. It's not as rare as you think!

I really can think of a ton of examples where chaotic characters received lawful shifts (numerous shifts even, over time).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "Lawful" means you have (your own personal) code you follow, or a code of a greater whole. Hence, most Dwarves are Lawful because of their Clan-rules etc. Of course, there's exceptions to the rule.

Law: -A- law, not necessarily the law of Sanctuary Chaotic: Random

Following nothing but your own beliefs and ideas is what chaotic is. Doing whatever you want, your way.

Anthee I don't know what that was meant as a response to, Thrawn, but I'm well aware of that. I think what I pointed out above is still true. How many times have you seen a chaotic PC receive a large shift towards lawful, even though by the rationale you just explained it should be just as common as lawful PCs receiving large shifts towards chaotic? On all of the servers I've played -- and I've played my share of chaotic PCs too -- I know none. In fact, I don't know a single instance of a chaotic PC losing their chaotic status, whereas lawful PCs losing their lawful status (paladins in particular) seem to be relatively abundant.

There's an inconsistency here that shouldn't be just dismissed.

I've given shifts in all 4 directions, and almost every single shift was towards the middle.

Alright then. What I said was just my impression. Maybe there isn't a problem at all.

I think the reason that people notice chaotic or evil shifts more is that monks and paladins get hurt by shifting.

Worthy of noting here is that during the course of DMing, it's possible that we simply missed/forgot to give an alignment change. It can be pretty hectic at times, so if you're certain that the actions of your character during a certain event should have seen an alignment shift (particularly important for divine classes), don't hesitate to send in a quick email in describing the event and what warranted the shift.

Barbarians and bards get "hurt" by becoming lawful too.

Is it possible the alignment shifts are given specifically against paladins, monks, bard and barbarians (and clerics) just because they are hurt by it?

Everyone needs to be on the same measuring stick, just because certain classes get penalised by certain shifts doesnt mean they should be the only one's getting shifts. Otherwise you end up with a lot of "fallen" characters that are off the rails from their path and not much else.

If you give shifts to anyone, you should give it to everyone. (note: there probably isnt a d.m widget that changes alignment of people in a particular area is there? just party based)

Also for me the difference between lawful and chaotic is maybe slighty different to maybe other views of it.

A lawful character value's self-control. (self control enough to follow laws laid down, their own laws, some code etc) This is why they're resistant to change, much slower to do so. To change would mean they're calling into question their own self-control and views.

A chaotic character values instinct and emotion. They decide on whims, and how they feel about things. If they feel like doing something they will, they think it's right because it feels right. They're adaptable and embrace change. Living in the confines of somebody else's law isnt appealing, they arent able to follow their instincts and emotions. It should be noted that chaotic characters because they act on instinct can radically change their moral stance also.

On top of that you have the moral axis which will govern behaviour as well.

Having said that... lawful characters would actually change morals more slowly, they justify their behaviour in terms of their own world view. (rightly or wrongly) Chaotic characters going with the flow would change more rapidly. They dont feel the need to justify their actions to others.

The shift for example from lawful good to lawful evil (and vice versa) would be a much slower movement than a chaotic good going to chaotic evil and vice versa.

We don't give alignment shifts specifically to those characters with classes which might be detrimentally affected by the change for the sake of doing so. Basically, if you do a deed which necessitates a shift, you'll get one. If you don't, you won't. I see no reason why <classes mechanically affected by alignment> will be singled out over classes which aren't.