First of all, as the first part of the topic suggests, hello. Logged on last night with a friend and we had a considerably pleasant time. Roleplay was both ample and pleasant and the server's design and look were commendable. However... this is where the second part of the topic comes into play. Attempting a simple quest with said friend ended up with both characters dead. That, though obviously irritating, isn't the source of my criticism, however. The source, and the gist, of it was in the consequences of death. Waking up naked, near death, pennyless and unarmed does not a pleasant experience make, in particular when one is an entirely new player and character. I found myself unable to either rest, acquire clothes or, what is necessary for both, acquire gold to pay for either. As far as I can see, begging for gold naked in the streets seems to be my character's only resort. This, quite unfortunately, dampened my considerable enjoyment of the server until that point. While a harsh death system has its uses, perhaps you should consider relaxing it somewhat for characters of the beginning level, considering they are the ones least likely to have external resources to those they carry on them or the in-character friends to help them out. I would also like to note that this is not an angry rant, but an attempt at constructive criticism as a new player to your server.

Welcome to EFU!

Sorry you died so quick, but with the death system you could go back to where your body once was and get your goods back so you can wear something and not lose all your items. You also have the option to respawn on where your corpse died.

Hope that helps, and I'll check you later in the Underdark!

_Nightfire_ Welcome to EFU!

Sorry you died so quick, but with the death system you could go back to where your body once was and get your goods back so you can wear something and not lose all your items. You also have the option to respawn on where your corpse died.

Hope that helps, and I'll check you later in the Underdark!

That, unfortunately, does not help. Walking naked, near death and weaponless back to where the creature that killed me is still waiting can hardly be considered a viable option, particularly under the set of circumstances faced by an entirely new character. Considering that my character is in worse shape than it was when it first faced it, the chances of retrieving equipment are rather slim, if not entirely non-existant. It should also be noted that I opted to return to where my corpse was, and was not.

Hello, and welcome again.

If the death system seems tough, hopefully you'll understand it's also what makes this server so fun. There's risk and challenge in everything you do; players are forced to think on their feet and think creatively, because there is no assumption that a quest will not claim your life. However, in response to your quandry as to whether the toughness could be decreased for low levels, I think part of the reason that hasnt been implemented is so that lower levels are forced to meet people and play cooperatively.

Of course, if all else fails and you do die without any means to get back on your feet, as Nightfire mentioned, you do have the option to respawn at your corpse, maybe you missed it. And worse case scenario, you do walk the streets in rags for a bit, but such is life in the Underdark, and if you can embrace the fact that even asking for help from a higher level can lead to great roleplaying, then I think you wont have such a bad time afterall! Hope you have more fun in the future (I'm sure you will).

EDIT: If you opted to return to where your corpse was and this didn't work, report it in the bugs section of the forum. That shouldnt happen!

Thilodius Hello, and welcome again.

If the death system seems tough, hopefully you'll understand it's also what makes this server so fun. There's risk and challenge in everything you do; players are forced to think on their feet and think creatively, because there is no assumption that a quest will not claim your life. However, in response to your quandry as to whether the toughness could be decreased for low levels, I think part of the reason that hasnt been implemented is so that lower levels are forced to meet people and play cooperatively.

Of course, if all else fails and you do die without any means to get back on your feet, as Nightfire mentioned, you do have the option to respawn at your corpse, maybe you missed it. And worse case scenario, you do walk the streets in rags for a bit, but such is life in the Underdark, and if you can embrace the fact that even asking for help from a higher level can lead to great roleplaying, then I think you wont have such a bad time afterall! Hope you have more fun in the future (I'm sure you will).

EDIT: If you opted to return to where your corpse was and this didn't work, report it in the bugs section of the forum. That shouldnt happen!

Thilodius Of course, if all else fails and you do die without any means to get back on your feet, as Nightfire mentioned, you do have the option to respawn at your corpse.

That part only applies if you have other people in your party who didnt die, or have some other way of retrieving your gear without being seen. Otherwise, yeah, its not going to happen.

Thilodius That part only applies if you have other people in your party who didnt die, or have some other way of retrieving your gear without being seen. Otherwise, yeah, its not going to happen.

Alright, I'll change the tone of my posts. Input your idea of a way that the death system could be reasonably altered to help newer players, and we'll work from there. Otherwise, I dont really know what to tell you other than "I think the status quo works," which frankly I do. But I'm all ears, because I've also only had one character and my low level experience could have been better than most. So shoot.

The death system is moderately strict, and as with any server, getting the hang of a new one will generally have it's fair share of pitfalls. New, low level characters are already taken care of by way of very minimal XP loss for respawning.

The trouble seems to be the monsters lingering near the bodies, which may force a decision on whether to start over penniless, or to create a new character. This is a fact of life on Persistent Worlds, and there's no real way around it.

However, some advice - don't be shy about using the /dm channel for help. I wouldn't expect a raise or free stuff, but if your entire group is wiped out and a DM is in game, I'm sure we'd have no problem helping the monsters wander off so that you can return safely and pick up your stuff.

Hello, Dolorous.

I'm a big fan of "A Song of Ice and Fire" myself - you aren't the same Dolorous Edd that frequents the Chronicles-network forums by any chance?

Anyway. I digress. The reason that death is so strict is to give it some meaning, beyond what you would find on some other persistent worlds, particularly the action servers. It can be incredibly frustrating, particularly if you have a character you know and love, but the point is to bring your character to life, they must also have a real fear of dying.

For instance, any quest you attempt loses some meaning if there is no real danger. What's the point of running through the quests then, are they just to be condensed to 'experience treadmills'?

If you just want to play casually, you just have to be that bit more careful, find someone extra to be your leverage on some quests, or prepare a little more thoroughly when you play. You can do all the quests easily if you're careful, i'm sure.

If you want to play more seriously, then you can appreciate that once you get PAST the fear of dying, you can really begin to appreciate the other side of things, of what your character is, and what they want. We are trying to create a world you can alter simply by exerting your own sheer will on proceedings, something i honestly believe has never been truly achieved on any other server. If you wish your character to change the laws, build a home, create an inn purely for dwarves, blackmail a council member, or finally, find a way to escape the underdark, it should be achievable. The only limit is your imagination.

Your constructive criticism is in all sincerity very much appreciated, as it is a challenge for us to make a server that is at once welcoming to new players while still retaining its challenging atmosphere.

Respawning at the location of your corpse is generally not recommended in situations of total party-kill (which, afaik, happens extremely rarely, at least I've yet to observe it happening while actively DM'ing) as the monster will continue to attack once you "stumble awake." Respawning at the mausoleum, however, does bring you at full health health with some basic clothing to wear (naked PCs running through the streets isn't something we think is fun to role-play either). A respawned character is then able (if necessary) to request assistance or perform a simple delivery quest or two to get back on his feet.

However, that doesn't address the fundamental issue. Perhaps the solution here is to have level 2 PCs respawn invisible, so that they will be able to better recover from their misfortune and not get too discouraged too early.

Again, your feed-back is appreciated and it's very helpful for us to have the insight of new players. I hope you'll continue playing here.

With your permission, I'll break down my response into segments, as a way to organise them clearly.

Anyway. I digress. The reason that death is so strict is to give it some meaning, beyond what you would find on some other persistent worlds, particularly the action servers. It can be incredibly frustrating, particularly if you have a character you know and love, but the point is to bring your character to life, they must also have a real fear of dying.

For instance, any quest you attempt loses some meaning if there is no real danger. What's the point of running through the quests then, are they just to be condensed to 'experience treadmills'?

As I've already posted, it's not the general strictness of the system that I criticise. For a moderately or even slightly established character, such a system can indeed add that "meaning" to death that servers, including those aimed strictly at roleplay, often lack. However, my criticism centers about the unestablished characters, recently created and as of yet lacking not only in contacts and knowledge of the server, but a fully formed personality (as, in my experience at least, even the most pre-planned character changes in the initial interactions with a server).

You just have to be that bit more careful, find someone extra to be your leverage on some quests, or prepare a little more thoroughly when you play. You can do all the quests easily if you're careful, i'm sure.

Considering the extremely limited resources available to a new character (using the character I created as an example, I started with the resources to purchase studded leather armour, a large shield and a sword), preparing more thoroughly for a combat oriented quest is not truly an option. Playing cautiously, with a companion, we both, never the less, ended up dead and now entirely without the ability to rebuilt even a starting character's "fortune".

However, some advice - don't be shy about using the /dm channel for help. I wouldn't expect a raise or free stuff, but if your entire group is wiped out and a DM is in game, I'm sure we'd have no problem helping the monsters wander off so that you can return safely and pick up your stuff.

Utilising such an option seems contrary to the added realism such a death system aims to add. Furthermore, DMs are not always either online or available, as evidenced when I did attempt to contact one, since I found the actual dying process to last considerably longer than I expected.

Then you can appreciate that once you get PAST the fear of dying, you can really begin to appreciate the other side of things, of what your character is, and what they want. We are trying to create a world you can alter simply by exerting your own sheer will on proceedings, something i honestly believe has never been truly achieved on any other server. If you wish your character to change the laws, build a home, create an inn purely for dwarves, blackmail a council member, or finally, find a way to escape the underdark, it should be achievable. The only limit is your imagination.

These possibilities are indeed attractive, and are one of the reasons I decided to try out this server.

...which may force a decision on whether to start over penniless, or to create a new character. This is a fact of life on Persistent Worlds, and there's no real way around it.

On this point I disagree. A system that forces a player into such an option is, in my opinion, flawed. Furthermore, I've seen a fair share of persistent worlds that did not force such a choice, and maintained an exceedingly high level of both roleplay and realism.

Alright, I'll change the tone of my posts. Input your idea of a way that the death system could be reasonably altered to help newer players, and we'll work from there. Otherwise, I dont really know what to tell you other than "I think the status quo works," which frankly I do. But I'm all ears, because I've also only had one character and my low level experience could have been better than most. So shoot.

My suggestion is simple: Instead of a complete loss of all possessions, a limited loss can be implemented. Instead of all coin and equipment being lost, the basic necessities could be kept: Armour or clothing, some coin (at the very least enough to rent a room to rest in), and a weapon. Considering that most of a character's equipment is in its inventory, the loss of all items not directly equipped (or even all those except the weapon, armour and some few coins), would still be considerable, without leaving the character destitute. My main point of criticism, if I may repeat it, is that the current system has the most effect on the weakest characters, and those least able to rebound. Allowing the first level (i.e. the second character level) some leeway in which to form bonds and contacts with other players, without forcing the problematic experience of begging for coin (which I can't imagine is a pleasant experience for either the begger or the one being begged of). Furthermore, ingraining the concept of begging (which, as far as I can see, is what one has no recourse but to do, without equipment) seems to me a negative thing for the ethos of the server. I'd also like to note, since realism seems to be your goal and since my character respawned in the mausoleum, that interring someone with armour, weapons and some coin is hardly an unknown custom in history.

I'm a big fan of "A Song of Ice and Fire" myself - you aren't the same Dolorous Edd that frequents the Chronicles-network forums by any chance?

I'm afraid not, though I'm an avid fan myself.

*For lack of subscript, I'll forgo a footnote and mention that it took my character an exceedingly long time to actually die, once the battle arrived to its unfortunate conclusion. I can honestly say that waiting for twenty for my character to move from where it fell to the fugue plane did not a scintillating experience make.

Howland Your constructive criticism is in all sincerity very much appreciated, as it is a challenge for us to make a server that is at once welcoming to new players while still retaining its challenging atmosphere.

Respawning at the location of your corpse is generally not recommended in situations of total party-kill (which, afaik, happens extremely rarely, at least I've yet to observe it happening while actively DM'ing) as the monster will continue to attack once you "stumble awake." Respawning at the mausoleum, however, does bring you at full health health with some basic clothing to wear (naked PCs running through the streets isn't something we think is fun to role-play either). A respawned character is then able (if necessary) to request assistance or perform a simple delivery quest or two to get back on his feet.

However, that doesn't address the fundamental issue. Perhaps the solution here is to have level 2 PCs respawn invisible, so that they will be able to better recover from their misfortune and not get too discouraged too early.

Again, your feed-back is appreciated and it's very helpful for us to have the insight of new players. I hope you'll continue playing here.

My "Essay on the Death System in Escape From The Underdark server, and its effects on low level characters, as experienced firsthand by the author" was unfortunately finished before I read your post, so I ask for some additional patience to my posts. My character respawned in the mausoleum, near dead and entirely naked, with not a single item of equipment, aside for the two OoC tools and two "Human Skin" items. Considering your posting, I'm inclined to assume that this is a bug and not a WAD. To add another point to my previous post which I forgot to add, NWN is, in the end, a limited system which will never be able to mimick realism as well as a pen and paper system. Without the ability to persistently store items (though if your server has such an option, my point is of course mostly invalid), a character is forced to, unrealistically for even AD&D, carry his all his possessions on his person at all times, and of course be in the constant risk of losing all, under the rules of such a system.

As for full-party-deaths, that is also far more likely to occur to low level and less prepared (by nature) characters, as it did to my friend and I. Pure misfortune was in play, which is one of NWN's primary drawbacks in an attempt to create a realistic environment. It's a factor that must, in my opinion, be considered, and duly factored into a death system. In the end, on any server where respawning is possible, death does not fully acquire the fear it should justly receive. As with all things, saturation brings with it devaluation, and the ability to respawn is, in the end, an inflation of "life". As for the idea of invisible characters, I'd suggest that a more in character and easily explainable method be used.

While I intend to continue playing on this server, since I have enjoyed the majority of my experience of it, I must confess that the situation I find myself in somewhat has unfortunately removed some of my enthusiasm for it.

I actually agree with most of your post. The only question, as far as what you suggested about keeping armor and weapon, is whether or not it makes sense on a larger scope, and only the DMs can answer that. I certainly have no problem with making it slightly easier for new characters to get a leg up in the world.

However, I do think you are overly stressing the 'realistic' aspect. The server tries to be immersive and *fun*, but that doesnt mean its trying to mimic real life. A big part of this fun, which I think is part of the mission plan for the server is good communication and interaction between players and DMs, almost in the tradition of PnP. Asking a DM to help you with something that you find to be, as you put it, ruining your play experience is hardly going to detract from the realism. Also, the death system is tough not in order to be realistic, but to present a challenge to the players.

Another thing: starting over penniless when you're level 2 isnt a big deal, period. Frankly, I wouldnt even get upset about it. Doing a few quests will get you back onto your feet in no time, and I'm referring to non-action quests. So I think saying the system is flawed is just misunderstanding the system: creating a new character because your level 2 died is pointless, you'll nearly be at the exact same place as if you did respawn with nothing. I think the possibility that you may have to respawn and lose your characters former possessions at a low level is a fact of life on Persistent Worlds, but having to recreate is not. Later on, when you actually have enough gear for this to matter, theres a very thin chance that you would ever have to respawn and lose all of your gear. If you play your cards right, that possibility is basically null.

Lastly, as far as taking a long time to die...well if you die slowly, then it will take a while. That's just the way it goes, and its never seemed like that big of a deal. There's really no way of speeding up that process, save giving your character an action to take his own life immediately. Otherwise, most people consider taking a long time to die a blessing, as it usually means more time to get healed. Is this what youre referring to?

EDIT: Well, it seems you're at peace now with your last post. Although, in answer to your question, yes there is persistent storage. Its given to certain factions, but considering the maleable nature of this server, I wouldnt be suprised to see it used by others as well.

I'm beginning to understand why your initial experience here may not have been the best. I only regret I wasn't on as a DM to assist at the time of these issues.

Because of our increased hour duration (5 minutes instead of 2), our bleeding/stabilization script could get a bit tedious. Generally it wasn't an issue because either the monster would continue attacking/kill you in one blow, or a party member would heal you, but when you're by yourself it was unfortunate. This was fixed (I think/hope) sometime yesterday in fact, and will be up for the next reset.

Human Skin item dupes (items related to our subrace system) appear when someone logs back onto the server with negative hitpoints (basically logging off while bleeding to death). A DM can strip you of those when they see your PC. This is what we we describe as an unintentional feature -- seeing a high level PC with tons of "skin items" indicates that the PC may have been deliberately logging off to avoid death. In your situation, I assume you quite understandably got bored with the tedium of bleeding to death (which under the old system stabilization could make it drag on forever).

Respawning to the mausoleum ("place of safety" option) should always equip you with burial rags equipped onto your PC's armor slot. However (and this is where it gets confusing), when a PC logs off while dead, the corpse gets moved from the place where you died to the mausoleum in one of the rooms behind Izarious. If you then log back on and choose "respawn to my body" it takes you to the mausoleum, but skips the burial-rag-equipping part.

There's one very simple delivery quest from the Rock Bottom Tavern to the Town Hall that pays 50 gold and shouldn't take more than five minutes to complete, however it may be somewhat difficult to find for a new character.

When I get a chance, I'll add a chest to to the mausoleum room in which you respawn with some very junky equipment to help out new PCs with. This can be rationalized as all the old and useless items that Izarious has stripped off the dead over the years.

You can also expect more low level quests to be added, and the difficulty of the ones we have to constantly be adjusted so fresh PCs can manage on their own. In the meantime, seeking out other PCs with a bit more equipment to take you on quests is encouraged and recommended.

Additionally, I will make a point to add more explanation to the OOC death system explanation placeable in the fugue. I suspect it's in serious need of revision.

Thanks again for your feedback, by all means continue to let us know if anything goes wrong.

Thilodius However, I do think you are overly stressing the 'realistic' aspect.

The emphasis I placed on realism was derived from the perceived attempt at realism the points you (the collective you) were eluding to (to my eyes, at least).

The server tries to be immersive and *fun*, but that doesnt mean its trying to mimic real life.

From the perspective of fun, I believe the rationale for lightening the so called load for new characters should be even more obvious.

A big part of this fun, which I think is part of the mission plan for the server is good communication and interaction between players and DMs, almost in the tradition of PnP. Asking a DM to help you with something that you find to be, as you put it, ruining your play experience is hardly going to detract from the realism.

My personal point of view on such matters is that a system that doesn't requires manual (i.e. DM) intervention is preferable to one that does, from several perspectives.

Also, the death system is tough not in order to be realistic, but to present a challenge to the players.

But challenge must be balanced appropriately to the one challenged, and as I've pointed out, the ones most vulnerable are the ones most likely to face the challenge.

Another thing: starting over penniless when you're level 2 isnt a big deal, period. Frankly, I wouldnt even get upset about it. Doing a few quests will get you back onto your feet in no time, and I'm referring to non-action quests.

With all due respect, I must strenously disagree. Starting without ANY equipment at all, at a point when you also do not have the contacts and in game friends to assist you in returning to strength is precisely when play and enjoyment are damaged the most. Furthermore, since the quests you speak of are NOT available for repeated undertaking, if one has already performed them. one is up the proverbial creek sans paddle. And even were they regenerating, naked (and I do mean naked, as my character respawned entirely without clothes) men running through the town carrying pies can hardly be considered conductive to either fun, realism or immersion in the game, not to mention dire sanitary consequences.

I think the possibility that you may have to respawn and lose your characters former possessions at a low level is a fact of life on Persistent Worlds

Once more, I have to disagree with this point. A persistent world can facilitate roleplay, fun, realism and immersion without resorting to such a condition.

If you play your cards right, that possibility is basically null.

In further disagreement, the possibility of a character dying, even with the best laid plans and preparations, is always in existance, particularly in a system such as NWN, where dumb luck, not to mention the vagaries of internet connections, are constantly at play.

In answer to your question, yes there is persistent storage. Its given to certain factions, but considering the maleable nature of this server, I wouldnt be suprised to see it used by others as well.

Persistent storage is indeed a blessing, for which I'm quite appreciative. However, if it's limited to particular factions, those outside of those factions are obviously left without recourse but to carry all their possessions with them, resulting in the same problem I previously pointed out.

Howland I'm beginning to understand why your initial experience here may not have been the best. I only regret I wasn't on as a DM to assist at the time of these issues.

For your (Howland and the collective you both) patience in answering and in accepting criticism, I'd like to offer my appreciation. I've had previous experiences with new servers where criticism commonly was responded to with the equivalent of "How dare you criticise our perfect system, given to us by Enlil at the dawn of time?". The change is refreshing.

Because of our increased hour duration (5 minutes instead of 2)

The server I've been playing on for the past year had hour durations of 12 minutes, just as a side comment.

This was fixed (I think/hope) sometime yesterday in fact, and will be up for the next reset.

Glad to read that.

Human Skin item dupes (items related to our subrace system) appear when someone logs back onto the server with negative hitpoints (basically logging off while bleeding to death). A DM can strip you of those when they see your PC. This is what we we describe as an unintentional feature -- seeing a high level PC with tons of "skin items" indicates that the PC may have been deliberately logging off to avoid death. In your situation, I assume you quite understandably got bored with the tedium of bleeding to death (which under the old system stabilization could make it drag on forever).

Respawning to the mausoleum ("place of safety" option) should always equip you with burial rags equipped onto your PC's armor slot. However (and this is where it gets confusing), when a PC logs off while dead, the corpse gets moved from the place where you died to the mausoleum in one of the rooms behind Izarious. If you then log back on and choose "respawn to my body" it takes you to the mausoleum, but skips the burial-rag-equipping part.

That is indeed what happened.

There's one very simple delivery quest from the Rock Bottom Tavern to the Town Hall that pays 50 gold and shouldn't take more than five minutes to complete, however it may be somewhat difficult to find for a new character.

As I remarked in my previous post, I completed that quest prior to my series of unfortunate events. As it is not repeatable, I find myself in something of an impasse.

When I get a chance, I'll add a chest to to the mausoleum room in which you respawn with some very junky equipment to help out new PCs with. This can be rationalized as all the old and useless items that Izarious has stripped off the dead over the years.

That seems like an excellent solution to the problem, in my opinion. Some low grade equipment (leather or padded armour, perhaps, shortswords and clubs and such) would make the situation quite acceptable to low level characters, without truly benefiting higher levels, thus maintaining a balance.

You can also expect more low level quests to be added, and the difficulty of the ones we have to constantly be adjusted so fresh PCs can manage on their own. In the meantime, seeking out other PCs with a bit more equipment to take you on quests is encouraged and recommended.

Additionally, I will make a point to add more explanation to the OOC death system explanation placeable in the fugue. I suspect it's in serious need of revision.

Both would be excellent and appreciated.

In passing curiosity, would Howland Reed have any bearing on your choice of nickname, or am I far off the mark?

Well, I get the feeling that simply letting Howland explain what happened to you probably would have been the easiest resolution to this thread, and I'm sorry for any confusion on my part. Not to mention, I think a lot of our disagreements, especially in your last post, are wording issues and not disagreements on the ideals of what we expect of a server. :wink:

And you're right, it is refreshing to see a DM recieve constructive criticism positively!

Enjoy your stay.

I'm extremely receptive to criticism because I'm well aware that this project has much to improve upon. The little things that might drive away a new player are particularly worrying, as then they won't get a chance to see all the cool stuff elsewhere.

The origin of the nickname is indeed from Martin. If you enjoy ASOIAF's particular blend of dark scheming fantasy with themes of redemption and loss (along with plenty of action and combat), you should enjoy EfU.

Howland I'm extremely receptive to criticism because I'm well aware that this project has much to improve upon. The little things that might drive away a new player are particularly worrying, as then they won't get a chance to see all the cool stuff elsewhere.

The origin of the nickname is indeed from Martin. If you enjoy ASOIAF's particular blend of dark scheming fantasy with themes of redemption and loss (along with plenty of action and combat), you should enjoy EfU.