I have been having some fun trying to figure out the exact definition of what a paladin is. While I have been doing this, I have noticed that the ingame description for a paladin does not match the one that is posted here:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/28/284/paladin/index.html

Most notably is this phrase:

Code of Conduct: Paladins lose all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, no using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may only hire henchmen or accept followers who are lawful good.

This would seem to imply that a paladin may NEVER associate with an evil character, for any reason. Or an evil NPC, for that matter. I have role played this, and find that the majority of the DM quests are "closed" to a paladin, because the NPC you will be working for (getting instructions, gold, reward) is evil.

In game, I have been instructed by the DMs that there are stipulations to this rule, and that I may associate with evil characters under specific situations. I would like this specific situatations included in the paladin description, so that I do not have to rely on my shoddy memory, or the notes I have written down while playing ingame.

I have also been having some problems figuring out what the basic "mould" that is being used for paladins. I have read histories about holy warriors, and catholic church documents, legends, etc. while I was attending the University. (link to a nice description of what I am talking about is below)

http://www.reference.com/search?q=paladin

Just some small hint--- like-- "Paladins are like the Jedi from Star Wars-- with these few exceptions---"

Or "Paladins are like catholic priest doctors, with swords. They have to get permission from their god to kill something, and even when they do it, they abhor the violence of it."

Any role play tips that can be added to the descriptions where would be great. I did a search on the forums for alignment/paladin iissues-- and got a third of the way thru before I realized that it was just a snipet here and there --- nailing the rules down in one spot would be appriciated.

Thank you.

The Paladin's handbook helped a lot for me. It's hard to find though, but it pretty much details everything a Paladin is/should be.

I've yet to have a problem not associating with evil, I don't know what you're referring to. Not that many of the questgivers are evil. If the DMs say there are stipulations to that rule, I don't know how they mean it, because I think it's pretty straightforward: Don't associate with evil. That generally applies to questing, but doing work for someone who's evil is in the same category.

What a Paladin is would also depend on the deity. Ilmaterian Paladins are fundamentally different from Hoarran Paladins, or Tyrran Paladins. There aren't hard and fast rules, just think of yourself as a paragon of virtue, or the epitome of what the god is espousing. I imagine a Tyrran Paladin, for example, would be the epitome of lawfulness yet mercy.

Spirrowmint I have role played this, and find that the majority of the DM quests are "closed" to a paladin, because the NPC you will be working for (getting instructions, gold, reward) is evil.

Stalking and stealing isn't very Paladiny.

SkillFocuspwn Stalking and stealing isn't very Paladiny.

"While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code."

Basically, that second sentence is the one that is enforced to the letter. If you're travelling with somebody who goes against your moral code, and you don't do something about it, trouble.

As to the first constraint, for a paladin to be justified in hanging with an evil person, there's got to be a damn good reason for it. There are a -lot- of damn good reasons out there, which is why I don't want to list 'em all. There are even more NOT good reasons, which is why I don't want to list THEM all. As usual, leeway is given for awesome.

As for what a paladin is based on, well, they're typically based on romanticized knights/crusaders. But other interpretations are perfectly dandy, so long as they follow the rules. =)

-Cross

((Paladins are a bit more stuffy/law-abiding than Jedi from star wars. The catholic priest with sword thing would be an ok interpretation of a paladin, were you so inclined. However, I would say that most paladins are pretty gun-ho about killing evil people. =) ))

This would seem to imply that a paladin may NEVER associate with an evil character, for any reason. Or an evil NPC, for that matter. I have role played this, and find that the majority of the DM quests are "closed" to a paladin, because the NPC you will be working for (getting instructions, gold, reward) is evil.

Well, first of all it's certainly not true that a "majority" of DM quest gives are evil. And even with those that are evil, there's generally an opportunity for a creative character to work against the evil NPCs and the PCs he hires - sometimes you may not succeed, but I would think of it as an opportunity for roleplaying instead of a limitation.

In game, I have been instructed by the DMs that there are stipulations to this rule, and that I may associate with evil characters under specific situations. I would like this specific situatations included in the paladin description, so that I do not have to rely on my shoddy memory, or the notes I have written down while playing ingame.

As an example -

(1) If an evil PC is helping to defend the gate from attack from a massive raid, you don't have to go hide in the Rock Bottom until he goes away.

(2) Although you shouldn't take evil PCs with you on adventures, you can certainly work to redeem them. I've seen some really great RP out of some paladins who worked very hard to redeem characters, and seen some great redemptions in EfU.

(3) I think most paladins would accept that there's a degree in being evil - you wouldn't be charitable to an overpoweringly evil balor who asked for a cup of water, obviously, but a filthy beggar asking for food wouldn't be turned away and indeed may even be helped.

I have also been having some problems figuring out what the basic "mould" that is being used for paladins. I have read histories about holy warriors, and catholic church documents, legends, etc. while I was attending the University. (link to a nice description of what I am talking about is below)

I'm not sure there is a good basic mould, particularly since FR paladins vary considerably amongst themselves (a stealthy paladin of the Shadowy Cloak ((Baravar Cloakshadow)) would be different than a fanatical Hoaran vs. a peaceful Ilmater, and so on).

As for your suggestion, I agree it's a good idea and thanks for suggesting it. I'll get around to it eventually, otherwise if someone wants to go through the forums and find some of the particularly useful snippets on role-playing a paladin (I know there's been a lot of threads) and put them together for me so I can paste it into the paladin description thread I'll even give them some XP IG.

This is why I've never made a paladain character. There seems to be such a small amout of room to manuver and give's you little options on how to RP besides "self righteous asshole"

Cluckyx This is why I've never made a paladain character. There seems to be such a small amout of room to manuver and give's you little options on how to RP besides "self righteous asshole"

There is room to maneuver. There's plenty of room for interpretation. Picking the right deity for your purposes is the first step. Second is realising that you don't have to play the perfect Paladin to be a good character. Of course it's the case that it's understandably difficult to play a Paladin, so why can't it be understandably difficult to BE a Paladin? I don't like calling on specific examples, but Shane was a fallen Paladin for a long time before redeeming himself. He is/was also a very good character. This isn't to say you shouldn't try at every opportunity to play the Paladin in a Paladinish way, but mistakes are understandable/explainable/justifiable both IC and OOC.

Also, as I've said before in previous discussions, the self righteous asshole thing is a misconception on the part of other players. Paladins are anointed warriors of a deity. They're heroes of a God. Remember, these are the Gods that govern every part of mortal life (and death). When they preach, people generally listen. It's why their (and clerics') class skills are persuade. It's also why they've got massive CHA.

Playing a Paladin in a rigid, authoritarian manner does not make them assholes, nor should you aim to be an asshole and get people's backs up as a Paladin.

I suggest following Laramie Lathae around a lot, or brooding with him in his cave, if you want to know what being a paladin is all about.

Ladocicea There is room to maneuver. There's plenty of room for interpretation. Picking the right deity for your purposes is the first step. Second is realising that you don't have to play the perfect Paladin to be a good character.

Yes, but the room for interpretation is goverened entirely by the DM watching you who reserves the right to punish you and remove you paladainish powers at will.

Did you read the rest of my post?

It seems like you're trying to say a class is only worth taking for its abilities. Would you quit a Paladin or Cleric if he was marked as fallen, or use it as an RP opportunity and have him find redemption?

Having your powers removed can be positive.

For some ideas as to how radically different paladins can be, here's a link to a (relatively) comprehensive list of canon Forgotten Realms paladin orders that I put together for nwn2wiki:

http://www.nwn2wiki.org/Paladin_orders

While being a member of an official canon order such as these (and qualifying for the multiclassing aspects) requires a DM app, there's nothing to stop you from using the descriptions as ideas for your paladin's behaviour according to deity.

Ladocicea Did you read the rest of my post?

It seems like you're trying to say a class is only worth taking for its abilities. Would you quit a Paladin or Cleric if he was marked as fallen, or use it as an RP opportunity and have him find redemption?

Having your powers removed can be positive.

Statement taken, and understood.

Consider my point of view changed for the better, thankyou Lado.

Cluckyx

Ladocicea There is room to maneuver. There's plenty of room for interpretation. Picking the right deity for your purposes is the first step. Second is realising that you don't have to play the perfect Paladin to be a good character.

Yes, but the room for interpretation is goverened entirely by the DM watching you who reserves the right to punish you and remove you paladainish powers at will.

I think you're vastly overestimating the number of paladins who run afoul of DMs who think they're not using their powers appropriately.

-Cross

There's probably less than six paladins who totally lost their paladin powers in a year of EfU play. And of those we already established that some were great characters, which is more important than being a great paladin.

Had an conversation ingame with a player, and they were chiding me about giving up on an evil character. It got me thinking, and we role played it out.

Went something like this--

"So you don't want to see that evil person redeemed?" "Of course I do! But that's not my job. Clerics and monks are the missionaries, and they concern themselves with the spiritual warfare. The physical threats are handled by the Paladins." "But what if you saw an evil begger dying of hunger on the street? Surely it would be a good thing to give him some bread and tell him to repent. You would be showing kindness and you would probably save his life, and his soul at the same time." "No. I wouldn't even talk to the beggar. I would however tell my cleric brother of the faith that there was a homeless problem, give the cleric my tithe, and tell the cleric to go find someone to feed and comfort. I might even stand near the beggar, so my cleric brother could find him easily. But I would offer no direct aid to someone that was wicked. I am a soldier, a holy warrior. My job is to protect the week and the inocent, and to do the bidding of my god, not to cook food and carry on philisophical debates with the wicked."

Just thought it was insightful. Points out the fact that a paladin may see the need for redemtion of the wicked, but its not really his job. Of course-- this brings up another whole can of worms when you get a cleric/paladin dual classed character.

(ok-- my head is spinning now-- lol)