ExileStrife
2006-01-12 22:10:31 UTC
#6072
I'm beginning to notice that Transmutation wizards are getting the shorter end of the wizard stick. Obviously, I'm a little biased because Strife is one, but nevertheless, I'll state my case.
Past the level 2 transmutation spells, it looks like a lot of the important ones have had their durations significantly reduced. Greater magic weapon and keen edge are both turn/level (magic weapon is still hour/level). This has made it difficult to prepare and use the spell at the right time, since you are limited to 6 minutes at level 6.
I think I've been in single large battles that have even outlasted a duration like that, and other times, with all the preparations that the leader makes and the discussion that comes with it, the duration can expire even before a battle.
Stoneskin comes soon, so I was looking forward to having some protection (Mage armor is hour/level, but being conjuration, it's forbidden in the transmutation school, and Shield is again turn/level). However, that has also been turned down to turn/level...and looking way ahead, Blackstaff is nerfed too.
I would love to see these back up at hour/level, so when a spell slot is prepared with one of these, they really do have a good lasting effect.
Howland
2006-01-12 22:34:59 UTC
#6074
As discussed in IRC, this is a bad idea and we're not going to do it.
Oroborous
2006-01-12 23:26:06 UTC
#6079
Transmutation is the most powerful school of magic, nearly hands down. The spell durations can still be increased with the right feats and are still insanely useful.
Consider it in a different way, a turn/level Keen Edge will increase your odds for a critical hit by a margin of 5 to 10%. At sixth level, that means out of an average of 120 attacks (assuming you on average cast it either on a fighter class with two attacks a round at 6th level) you will gain an additional 6 to 12 (average 9) critical hits. If you have a 14 STR fighter (+2 STR bonus) using a longsword (average 5 damage) then you are doing (7 * 9 extra damage) from using this spell. A sixth level fireball does (6 * 6) damage; so Keen Edge is still a better spell. Now this will do even more damage assuming you cast it on say a Barbarian half orc, or your fighter has higher than 14 STR (which honestly I think is far more likely to happen).
Now, all you need to do is demonstrate how a nerf'ed spell is now worse than a "standard" spell of this level. If a specific spell won't do roughly equivalent damage as a fireball of the same level, or won't ultimately prevent more damage than that on average then you have a considerable case.
I didn't do all the math for each spell, but hopefully you can see how it works so if transmutation is overly nerfed; a solid point can be argued.
PanamaLane
2006-01-13 00:48:17 UTC
#6087
I agree with Howland. I think an hour/lvl is way too much. If a turn/lvl seems to short for you, extend spell is your friend.
That said, I'm curious as to where you got the 120 attacks from? Considering that a lot of the time is spent waiting for scouts, healing, etc. I'm not sure you have the oportunity for so many attacks. Additionally, your fireball comparison can't be made. 6*6, yes but against multiple targets. 6*6*5 is a whole new ball game. Also, the dmg is done all at once which is always preferable because you are not busy taking dmg while dealing it.
Oroborous
2006-01-13 01:05:50 UTC
#6089
You want massive damage, a fireball will always do more. My comparison is how WotC balances their spells for these issues. If a spell is more effective than an equivalent level fireball--its too powerful. Fireball is great because it does multiple foe damage, keen edge is better in a specialized situation.
If you're not getting your 120 attacks off, you probably picked the wrong situation and didn't cast the spell just as a major fight was breaking out. You likely ignored the shortened durations and cast the spell, foolishly waited for scouts, foolishly waited for a plan to formulate, and only *then* went to battle rather than doing all of that *first* and then going into the last big fight against the uberfoe you'll need to swing at 120 times to beat anyway.
Realize its 120 swings too, not hits.
Eraamion
2006-01-13 14:24:11 UTC
#6135
I think that abjuration, conjuration, enchantment, illusion, evocation and transmutation all have their strengths and are worthy of playing, even though the degree of usefulness slightly varies. I don't think any modifications in either of them are needed at the moment.
Maybe nerfing the 2nd level ability buffing transmutations' durations to 3 turns/level which still means a 50% increase over the original NWN duration of 2 minutes (essentially going down from 5 minutes/level to 3 minutes/level).
With the slight modifications that have been made, abjuration has become very cool to specialize in.
Conjuration will have a lot of added value due to the variety of monsters you can summon.
Divination needs a boost but they are working on it.
It seems to me that necromancy is a little underpowered in EftU as well but I can't really say since I have not played a necromancer yet.
We will see the need of further balancing as higher level spells start being used more widely. There is IMO none in regards to 1st-level and 2nd-level spells except maybe the one I already mentioned.
Arkov
2006-01-20 09:50:58 UTC
#6666
It seems to me that necromancy is a little underpowered in EftU as well but I can't really say since I have not played a necromancer yet.
I have plans for extensive systems for both ritualistic necromancy and simplistic character-corpse necromancy. Once these are properly balanced, the necromancy spell school should definitely be able to hold its own.