Greetings,

A few nights ago, I noticed a trend emerging, as Victoria made her speech against Kobolds and Goblins. Cries of 'Goblins are people too!' rose up from a large majority. , which seemed quite odd to me, considering in the FR, at least to my understanding, general consensus is that Kobolds and Goblins are sneaky, cowardly, evil ittle creatures, who are nothing better than vermin. In the past FR games, these races have shown up as agitators countless times, and there has been little, if any moral ambiguity shown in regards to these tasks. However, it also occurs to me that Sanctuary would force the races to live together in close proximity, so I can at least understand why someone born in Lower might have a better relationship with Goblins and Kobolds than others. Despite this, it seems odd to me that good characters will be tolerant of these races - in my understanding, at least, good people cannot be without prejudice.

I'd be interested to hear what you all think of this issue.

Cheers

-DD

Relevent Discussion Link

hang draw and quarter them all!

Well my character Jenner is for racial equality (excluding illithids, beholders, ect) because she has faced unfair prejustice for being a half orc. She seems to think she can turn some good.

I think it's silly, but I like to assume that as long as people know that Goblins/Kobolds are evil and cowardly and they -still- support them that they are perfectly alright with my character treating them poorly in return.

I just don't like it when people do unusual things and wonder why people respond in a certain way.

Personally, it irks me to no end.

I don't mind the casual supporter for logical reasons "Defend the canal ward gate, etc". Those make sense.

When 1 or 2 people move for equity, that's fine as well.

But when PC's come en legion to support the rights of a well known, evil, sneaky race, it drives me up the wall.

If you support Goblins, why not Drow? Or tieflings? Or Anything for that matter?

Goblins and Kobolds are renown for their trickery and evil. Much like Drow are known for their malice and evil. Or tieflings and their shadiness and evil.

Defending them on the platform of "Well they are living things too!" doesn't matter. They are 2nd if not 3rd class citizens because of what they are. The 1960's-70's didn't occur in FR. No one has marshaled an army of men to fight for their rights, and in my mind canonically they wouldn't for the fact that things -are- so black and white in this world. Gods -do- exist. Evil and good -does- exist. A good drow occurs once every 3rd blue moon, yes, as does good creatures of other races, but my issue is this:

"A bad apple spoils the entire bunch" does not really apply in FR. One bad aasimar would not make you say "AASIMAR ARE EVIL MONSTERS HELLBENT ON DESTRUCTION!". The converse should apply as well. One good character is not redeeming enough for the entire race. Goblins are evil, and will kill you/lie to you/whatever. Just because a character met one who didn't, or a PC who faced racial injustice thinks they can fix it (A common act in many places), does not mean that you should campaign for equality. Majority of the time, I'd expect a character who -has- face racial injustice to perform even worse against lesser/more hated groups, because that's just human nature.

Faerun and the forgotten realms usually in general has a dirty caste/feudal system. Goblins and Kobolds are at the bottom of the barrel, and the facts are there that it pretty much will never change. On the surface this is well known usually, and in Underdark I expect it would be even moreso known since it is even more cuthroat and "Chaotic" in general. People would worry of their own hides and agendas, rather than some smelly goblin tribe hiding in the back alleys causing trouble.

I also feel that goblin/drow/illithid/whatever sympathizers should and will be met with hatred, and should be expecting that.

I'll put it simply, any kobold or goblin I have seen on the server have either a) Been evil little gits b) Been evil, but hid it from others

If you support them, go right ahead, just don't complain when they backstab you

In the Underdark, races like kobolds/goblins are disgusting and evil but as a fellow "slave" race I can certainly see how many characters can interact with them in a semi-peaceful way. Often times kobolds/goblins/humans were all being put to work in the same pits.

We decided very early on in the creation of the server that we'd be changing duergar somewhat from the canon interpretation of duergar, largely because we wanted some races that were neutral to Sanctuary. This resulted in a local duergar clan that doesn't keep slaves as far as is widely known. Further details should be learned IC. Plenty of duergar do keep slaves, of course, and pretty much all duergar are still evil and unpleasant but we did consciously set out to create a mostly palatable duergar clan.

Any attitude about beholder/illithid tolerance is totally loony, though.

It is definitely important to remember that comparing Forgotten Realms specisiesm to contemporary civil rights/racism is totally inappropriate and not something I want to see on this server. However, goblins or kobolds demanding rights and conning characters into supporting them or even mostly-innocent humanoids that while disgusting have a certain charm to them are all fine. I can easily imagine characters from all ends of the alignment scale either feeling affection, neutrality, contempt, hatred, or amusement towards these other humanoid races.

"Kill 'em all!" should have been there.

/\ /\ U

I stopped playing a half-orc character for this exact reason. I had a concept I thought would be interesting to play, a half-orc paladin suffering prejudice as part of his faith in Ilmater, shrugging off insults and trying to overcome his monstrous heritage. Trouble was, with a couple exceptions, everyone treated him as warmly as they would a human. It took away the complexity I wanted to bring to the personality and made it no fun to play him. Not to mention the fact that most other paladins he met didn't understand why he didn't want to buy weapons and armor from evil merchants.

heh. I am playing a bard. they don't have prejudice. **i am chaotic nuetral**

I love my half orc paladin. Some people don't trust her for being a half orc, others trust her for being a paladin. I agree with Howland's theory that since goblins have been used as slaves and probably were enslaved with other citizens of Santuary. The difference between drow and goblins is that drow are sophisticated evil and goblins are stupid evil. Drow probably have a better understanding of the reasons for doing good (and hate good because of it) while goblins are evil for the same reason a child is selfish. They just know they want what they want.

Generally, now that we're on the subject of racial intolerance in and about Sanctuary, is the whole idea that everyone should be treated as equals. I see Dwarves hanging out with Elves and Halflings with Gnomes like no tomorrow; Whatever happened to the 'What you don't know, you shun' thing? It is just something I feel very, very strongly about, and I have incorperated racial tolerance into all my characters that have ever walked into Sanctuary. It is perfectly alright for Humans to despise Elves, because of their natural grace and beauty, and for the fact that they are nigh-immortal (in Human-eyes). It is not one problem at all to have a deep hatred for Half-Orcs, for the simple fact that their ancestors have (and are still doing) horrible things; Maiming, raping, looting and murdering. Sure Halflings should mistrust Gnomes, for Halflings are hard, methodical workers that aren't too keen on such jolly, justling Gnomes who crave for treasures. Most races have had intense wars with one another over the history of time, and with the enormous age some creatures reach, battles fought millenia ago were only fought by several generations past. Hatred at most, or prejudices at the least, should accompany any character there is.

When someone takes up this tip, however, (which I doubt few shall, since no one will listen to some old man rattling on about things) bear in mind, and I know the following from experience, that you do not want to go to far in racism. Whenever you want to interact with others, you'll find yourself drawing the shortest straw when one of your hated races is in the other's company. When you bar yourself from interacting with certain races, the fun will quickly be diminished, and you'll merely be a spectator when watching the world unfold. There is no way in which you can influence the world around you.

And again, as ever, I forgot what I was talking about, rattling on and on and on. I'll just post this and like another time if the message I tried to convey came across.

Succinct; Roleplay-racism good, roleplay-tolerance bad.

I think drow slavery has influenced it a bit. People were suddenly looked upon for their race (and in some cases, gender) by the dark elves who view everyone else as inferior. People of different races were all thrown into the same pit, figurativly and literally, and in many cases had to work together. I like to think of Sanctuary's citizens as being a little more 'enlightened.'

I would see them less enlighten for the very same reasons you mentionned.

Torture and slavery doesnt make you more open-

Victims of torture and slavery are VERY likely to repeat the act of their holder. ((in RL))

Keep in mnd that a if you were a slave long enough in the underdark, you probably saw goblin and kobold slaves stealing and weaseling what they could from other slaves. You probably saw ogre slaves lording their mass and strength over smaller slaves. You probably saw orc slaves kill halfling slaves for grim pleasure.

Joining the 'Brotherhood of Slavery' as some seem to want to make it out to be, doesn't suddenly make you a decent sort towards all other members of your 'brotherhood'. You are still the person you are, and people are still the people they are. Goblin slaves are malicious, cowardly, and sneaky. Ogre slaves are dumb, brutish, and violent. Orc slaves are lazy, opportunistic, and wicked.

If you, as a human slave formerly Cleric of Ilmater, offered to feel the pain of your fellow slaves among the goblinoids, they wouldn't see it as an act of noble sacrifice and appreciate it, they'd slit your throat and take your shit and hope the masters didn't notice you were missing and if they did, blame it on someone else. Probably that quiet, unassuming young maiden slave that didn't hurt anyone, but now suffers excrutiating torture because she is unable to defend herself against her fellow slaves accusations.

In Faerun, there are several canon 'facts'. Humans do not, as a general rule, have a hatred for elves. Men and women are generally seen as equals. Dwarves and elves rarely get along but usually aren't violent about it. Hin run the gamut from tribal and feral to carefree travellers to hard working folk. Goblins and orcs and all of their ilk, each as a race, are irredeemably evil.

Me? I'm gonna RP with all that in mind.

Well, considering at the moment i am playing a character that would kill a goblin before it even knew she was there, i have re-balanced the entire racal thing singal handedly.

Remember, though, racal grudges are very common, i mean, for the love of god! Pick up a Slavatore book once in a while. In the Icewind Dale Trillogy book 1 we see human on human racisum with the Barbarians of Icewind Dale and the Citizens of Ten-Towns.

Also, when i forgot who was playing their half drow for the 1st time out of all three people (not counting the half drow) in the House of Light, i was the only one to show racisum, in Ewaliz's wierd little way, and as soon as i did i heard crap like "oh, oh its okay, he's not evil." The cleric had no way of knowing that and she welcomed him, arms wide open.

So, in simple terms, WTF. Half orcs, goblins and kobolds should feel like the fingers immediatly pointed at them. Elves have been at war the goblins for centuries, damnit! Dwarves love a fight, and they arnt overly mercyful, they'd be the first to throw a punch at a kobold. Half orcs are feared by small villages and shunned openly by the world.

If the player base cant get some racisum going, then i am just going to make a char that kills half orcs on sight.

If you have seen a hin running away from orcs...named Tom shadow....yea that's me. The reason he ended up here was from an Orog raid.

If the player base cant get some racisum going, then i am just going to make a char that kills half orcs on sight.

I wanna join you Assasins prelude, anyone?

Don't fergit... for the most part, dwarves will attack most goblinoids on sight, no questions asked.

I mean, by the very rules of the game they enjoy a +1 Racial (Racism) Bonus against all orcs (including half orcs) and all goblinoids. They learn to speak their languages just so they can hurl epithets and be understood.

Orcs are stated to "have a hatred of elves and dwarves that began generations ago, and often kill such creatures on sight."

Aye... keel them. Keel them dead.

Heh, Harl that char u mentioned just so happened to be mine.

My excuse to that would be that the cleric and the half drow followed the same god (Eillistraee). It is a known that usually known that drow following that god are good drow.

But you are right in the sense that the cleric had no suspicions to begin with, the minimum amount you can do in racism. It is OOCly easier to be non-racist, but is wrong in nearly every IC way. By being non-racist, it means you don't get into trouble with the law and other things aswell as avoiding angry players as their newly made application character has just been killed before they could do whatsoever with it.

I think a few people are going too far. You can't just go around killing goblins and kobolds because they are app chars, which means the player behind the screen would be pissed off and might leave the server for good, giving a bad impression of it to players interested in joining along the way. Not exactly what Howland wants, right?

But I agree that there should be a minimum of racism around. Killing isn't the only way. Rejecting the char is a a good sign of racism, beating him or her up and looting them a bit. Being suspicious is another sign, and saying nasty things behind their backs is just as good. You can also just do simple things as pushing and shoving them away. Racism isn't only about gutting the said goblin.

So I say racism : +, but try to find ways other than killing.

So I say racism : +, but try to find ways other than killing.

I second that, although Half-orc/Goblin hunters are still an option. They will have problem to continue doing so, if its not in law. That way, you have racism, killing, and yet, not kill on spot.

(Ofcourse, killing the victim in a quest is not an option, and I doubt the victim will come with a person like this. Also, speaking with the player before, making sure he's not new/just came will be good as well)

I got the impresson that people who are brand new aren't likely to get approved in an app for a surace like Goblin?

Anyway, I agree that allowances must be made in a game where the controller of a goblin may be a player on the other end. So don't kill them outright.

However, part of the challenge of playing the goblin character should be dealing with all of the negatives that come with that, IMO.

Yeah, you should know that if you make a goblin or kobold you should realise that you are going to get picked on.

For Goblin/Orc/Kobold/etc.. hunters, you might want to get a DM to make a NPC and possess it, so you can proceed with the lynching without actually offending any players. But you can still make a hit list :wink: . If you want to kill the PC's, though, then I'd suggest following PvP rules and guidelines. Ask the PC before proceeding.

This is starting to get off topic, no?

PS: I know new players probably won't get an app char, but even an experienced player can go stomping off annoyed because all of his chars have just died in the same week. Before he could do anything with them.

In regards to playing racism, I would just like to say that the racist character should indeed manifest their prejudices to a reasonable extent. However, the enjoyment of the experience for the player of the character toward which that racism is directed should be the first priority.

Being the player of a half-orc, I have experienced racism enacted against my character that was entertaining and engaging for me as a player, and I fully appreciated it. The character spoke openly before my character about his opinions of savage half-orcs being allowed in Upper Sanctuary, and then remained there for my character to respond to his accusations. That is what I wanted to experience when making a half-orc character.

On the converse, however, I have experienced racism enacted toward my character that was totally one-sided. I am speaking of instances on other servers where players took a particularly hamfisted and substanceless approach to racism, like, for example, spitting on my character and running away before I could even type a response.

I suppose my primary point is that I support the playing of racial tension in this setting, but only when used as a means of providing a more involved role-playing experience for all players - both the haters and the hated.

Harlstar

If the player base cant get some racisum going, then i am just going to make a char that kills half orcs on sight.

Good luck, my half orc has friends to defend her! Non-halforc friends! :D

You don't have to kill them... just abuse them a bit, smack them upside the head, pull their hair, stamp on their feet. You know, usual stuff.

Yeah, racism is not about killing, :)

Go to 1900's U.S.A. K.K.K. or Klu Klux Klan. Would hang blacks simply because they were black. Burn crosses in there yards and when the black population defended themselves they were jailed for assualting a white person.

So yea. Rasism COULD be an excuse for killing.

Yeah, but unfortunately we're not living in The Confederacy in the eighteen hundreds. We're on a PW fantasy server that is trying to promote fun for everyone.

Killing someone solely because the race they've picked for their PC offends your character doesn't much seem to promote fun (unless you've made a conscious decision to apply for a race whose whole "thing" is that they're killed in virtue of being what they are).

Drow and such races provide an extra challenge for people who want to play a character that could potentially be killed at any moment. New players who haven't apped for their races and just picked a Half Orc because they wanted to play it won't take well to being killed without any explanation. We're assuming here that people that apply for races that will be killed in sight know that they will be killed on sight, which is a reasonable assumption to make.

If we let those characters get killed on sight, I think that no one will take those particular races for PCs because they will be killed on sight. Doesn't that seem a little unrealistic?

If you want to lynch Gobs, Kobs and other races like that, I think ask the player first so that you get his consent, or just try and get a DM to possess an NPC and lynch it :wink:

Jayde Moon Don't fergit... for the most part, dwarves will attack most goblinoids on sight, no questions asked.

I mean, by the very rules of the game they enjoy a +1 Racial (Racism) Bonus against all orcs (including half orcs) and all goblinoids. They learn to speak their languages just so they can hurl epithets and be understood.

Orcs are stated to "have a hatred of elves and dwarves that began generations ago, and often kill such creatures on sight."

Yes, maybe, but we are players, and some don't like their chars dying. Also, elves and dwarves are fairly intelligent to know that it isn't the smartest thing to do in front of everyone and possibly a watchman. And dwarves prefer upfront confrontation than sneaking behind other people's backs.

Concerning the K.K.K, as Lado said we are not in the 1930's society. You can't use examples from this world and apply them to F.R. For many reasons it just doesn't work like that. But it is true that lynching groups are very probably present, although not as big as the K.K.K was. So do make lynching groups, but please don't all go as far as to kill non-stop. Do kill occasionally, no, rarely, but not all the time.

You don't need to be as radical as that. Just generally looking at them with a weary eye and whispering between you is good enough.

Killing is the most radical and it is ultimate form of racism, and few are that radical. The world isn't all black and white, it's grey with a lot of blotches. Keep in mind to roleplay it well though and be consistent.

Arcaia Concerning the K.K.K, as Lado said we are not in the 1930's society. You can't use examples from this world and apply them to F.R. For many reasons it just doesn't work like that. But it is true that lynching groups are very probably present, although not as big as the K.K.K was.

The idea you can't take examples from this world and apply them to the Realms is just silly.

The Realms is inspired by this world. In fact, entire cultures from this world are transplanted into the Realms. The Dales are the cultural equivalent of colonial America. Mulhorand is the cultural mirror of ancient Egypt. Kara-Tur is the cultural reflection of Asia. Zakara the reflection of the Lavant. If you can't recognize the modern capitalist America's in Waterdeep you're not looking.

Ed Greenwood and Realm's developers have constantly pointed out the correlation between the real world and its history with their fantasy world. Entire pantheons of our world's dieties show up in the Realms.

In fact, the KKK shows up in the Realms. Its an elven order dedicated to promoting the elven way of life and eliminating any non-elfs who settle elven land. The cultural mirrors here are really clear.

Now, that's not to say anything is exactly the same-it clearly isn't but even a casual examination of the game world will point out numerous examples of how the Realms is a model, an archetype, and a reflection for the real world that allows players and storytellers to examine and explore real life issues through this game medium.

As I see it, the reason dwarven hatred of goblins, gnome hatred of kobolds haven't led to the destruction of these groups is that there is a massive base of exslaves and rational minds who realize that the city won't last long if it A) drives away potential allies no matter how disagreeable B) these rational minds are more likely to drive out those seeking to kill their enemies.

The Eldreth Veluutra is a classic example of real world groups in F.R., As Oro said.

A militant group of borderline terrorist elves that operate against any humans, in hopes of taking back "Elven land"?

A large number of RL groups could fit that group.

Hell. Just look at the "Crusades". Genocide to take back lands.

Not a strech of a concept.

Hrm. Rasism is Prominent when you are looking. Hells. Some watch members are rasist.

If i see one more dwarf being racist to a human im going to make an uber half orc and #$^^ing slaughter all of you.

Humans are to superpower of the FRs, do not piss off the humans.

Um.

Not exactly sure what "Humans are to superpower of the FRs" means, but you are completely wrong if you think humans are numerous when it comes to underdark.

Sanctuary? Yes.

Underdark Heeeeeell no.

Well, i think i just hate dwarve's guts

In fact, im going to ruin the reputation of the dwarves by making a caward-dwarf.

You crazy, man. You crazy.

Arcaia, I think you should quote something I say and respond with something I allowed for just a few short posts after.

Indeed, it's no fun to play a goblin and just have people kill you because 'Dorfs hates gobbies'.

The wheels of this discussion are pretty much going to spin and spin and spin.

Therefore, I, Jayde Moon, relative newcomer to EfU have taken it upon myself to sum everything up. Here it goes, definitive word, because I am a genius :wink:. Listen up folks:

It's FR. 'Racism' as it is being referred to in this thread is alive and well. Most dwarves would rather shove an axe into a goblins head than stand back to back with one against a common enemy. In many of these cases, it is more than a simple belief that someone is better than someone else because they are A) civilized B) advanced C) have religion D) etc.

A lot of times it is due to the kid tested, mother approved fact that a lot of these other intelligent races are your enemy and will kill or enslave you A) for your stuff B) cause they can C) cause they're hungry D) cause it's fun E) to be their babysitter.

As such, it is realistic to assume that AT THE VERY LEAST there will generally be an atmosphere of distrust between races that are commonly antagonistic to one another.

However, this is a game and there are people on the other side of a lot of these toons, so in the interest of FUN FOR ALL, we can fall back on a variety of reasons why we allow our PCs to set aside the worst of their 'racist' tendencies, whether it's A) because we were all slaves so we have a common ground B) because there are laws that say we can't just kill folks C) because there's enough of them that killing one would likely result in our own death D) when the drow do try to take sanctuary we have lots of fodder troops.

And, it's really a lot more fun (and adds to the depth of the game) when you play out tensions in a more imaginative way than just whipping out your sword and hacking away at someone.

The rock bottom line: We can all agree that IC racism is acceptable in EfU (whether we would individually choose that for our own PCs or not), but steer clear of griefing.

Yup, yup.

You sure you havent played here before Jayde?

I agree with racism Including kill on sight for kobolds goblins drow dureguar half drow Tieflings Asimar etc. Because when a player apps to play a goblin kobold or any other race people will likely frown upon expect to be killed. I mean a drow to walk in here and be treated equally or the same for a dureguar. I mean a slaver race who might have slaved you beat you whipped you made you serve them abused you and treeated you like crap for years. I mean heres a list of prejudices.

Half orcs- They are the sons or daughters of huge hideouse beasts that have raided pillaged and raped lands. They are known to be huge brutes and baby eating monsters.

goblins-slimly creatures who are very dumb dont take bathes. Who are small weak and raid lands.

Kobolds-known for using cowardly tactics and weak cowards. Known for eating things in arms reach and of course using there clan numbers and traitors who stab people in the back to get what they want.

Tieflings -evil coniving creatures who are the spawns of vile creatures and are just as vile as there fiendish ancestory.

Drow- Slaving cowardly bastards who show no mercy or remorse for others and betray others and often do things for theselves. Also the reason for many people brought to the underdark.

For those who know mythology Drow are the people exiled from the surface for betraying the elves in general and there vile queen lolth was banished with her dreaded race down to the underdark,

Dureguar- BAstard evil grey dwarves who slave people and of course backstabbing rip people off for there own selfish goals also known for slavery and killing innocents,

TO those that know mythology There god was banished for injustice against the dwarves and was banished down here by the dwarf father mordain himself.

Racism for Asimars-HAVING THE special Holy celestial blood and of course acting all valorouse and being so rightcheouse with there shinyness and galiant ness. -and for evil players death to the holy bloody Asimars calling me evil for my actions that goody tooshews.

All this racism just makes it more fun for my half-orc paladin to fight for equal rights :) As hopeless as it is.

I need to make this comment:

Dwarves are weary (suspicious) of the other races. They arnt arseholes to them, unlike virtualy every dwarf Ayame's met so far, and she's met her fair share, i tell you.

Read her journal, check out her impression of them. All the racisum you'll ever need.

acting all valorouse and being so rightcheouse

death to the holy bloody Asimars calling me evil for my actions that goody tooshews.

Dear Pot I an writing to complain regarding recent changes to your appearence, more specificly, your colour, which I disaprove of. Sincerly, The Kettle

Reading through the posts on this thread, I have to just add my bit in. If your character would act racist towards goblins and koblods, ect..: Then be racist. If they wouldn't, don't. A character who was enslaved by a race isn't likely to start treating them as friends; but that doesn't mean to say that they cannot tolerate them for the purpose of survival.

Likewise, a character may hate a race purely because of prejudice. This same prejudice may also encourage some characters to learn more about that race and understand it - you never know. In essence, -do what your character would do-. Thats really all there is to it.

[reads the funeral rites to the mass of dead equines piled around this topic]

Oroborous The Realms is inspired by this world. In fact, entire cultures from this world are transplanted into the Realms. The Dales are the cultural equivalent of colonial America. Mulhorand is the cultural mirror of ancient Egypt. Kara-Tur is the cultural reflection of Asia. Zakara the reflection of the Lavant. If you can't recognize the modern capitalist America's in Waterdeep you're not looking.

Ed Greenwood and Realm's developers have constantly pointed out the correlation between the real world and its history with their fantasy world. Entire pantheons of our world's dieties show up in the Realms.

Ok, I stand corrected. I didn't know that (about Waterdeep, well I never really looked, neither about the rest actually). I don't have the book and info at hand.

Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim have always reminded me a tiny bit of Nazi Germany. A facist regime with ambitions of conquest with a network of spies and agents and armies at their disposal. All that stands between them and total conquest are a handful of democracies and monarchies! It's always sort of seemed as though Damaran was sort of Germanic, too.

I've got to echo an earlier point, though. Orcs, goblins, and kobolds are generally going to maintain their orcish behavior in the same way that an opportunist or an altruist will in a desperate situation. Yes, of course there are going to be exceptions, but by and large, monstrous races are going to try and put themselves first at the expense of other slaves, and its likely that the suffering involved with slavery would sharpen the dislike if others are cravenlt trying to get an easy way out or beat you to the punch in the same way that you'd get more angry by seeing someone cheat on a test you spent the last week studying for than you would if you weren't invested in it at all.

On the other hand, a rational person would look at the situation and realize that things really weren't going too well in Sanctuary. There are only a handful of defenders in an extremely hostile environment, and the debate about how far we should go in the name of survival should be raging constantly.

Because of this, I've always seen orcs and other races as being a tollerated evil. Sure, they're usually nasty, but they're decent cannon fodder.

For reason of realism, I wouldn't mind seeing their evilness brought out more. With a few exceptions (Mustachio, Redclaw, and the other evil monstrous races), they just sort of seem to be neutral parties in Sanctuary. I wouldn't mind seeing occasional strife - stories of kobolds running off with the occasional baby, goblins robbing and killing people, and orcs sacrificing people to Gruumsh/Bane/Cyric/Whatever would really give them better representation.

Most importantly, however, remember that there's a person behind the monster across from you and you're here to tell a story, not 'win.' What would be more fun in the long-run, antagonizing that goblin and trying to turn the public against him before framing him for murder or cutting him down in the streets?