This topic may have been touched on briefly in the most recent discussion on charisma, but I am hoping this post will create a more specific response.

What is the general opinion of how skills are related to the role-playing of charisma? For example, could a character with a low charisma compensate for a deficiency in grace by earning ranks in the persuade skill? Could this be regarded as a character that has learned to overcome their lack of personal magnetism by using the force of their words to win people to their side?

What of a character with low charisma that has earned ranks in the intimidate skill? Could they still ascend to a position of authority by bullying into submission those that are beneath them?

Could a character with low charisma BS their way to a higher social standing by earning ranks in the bluff skill?

I was just curious as to what the majority thought was as to how skills influence the role-playing of a character beyond the standard dice rolls to which they are related.

Yes.

Oh, well then, that certainly was easy enough.

First of all, by getting skills in persuade you do not gain an effective higher CHA score (I'm sort of getting the impression that this is what you think. Apologies if I'm wrong).

Your skills can be honed so that an introvert may become highly persuasive, or intimidating, yes. This does not confer any advantages to the other areas that CHA might govern e.g. personal appearance (Even though that is not exclusively governed by CHA), general magnetism, oratory and so forth.

It should also be noted that, whilst you may train yourself to overcome your inhibitions e.g. the shy 8 CHA PC puts points in persuade or intimidate, they'll never be as persuasive or intimidating as someone with 18 CHA due to the 18 CHA contributing 4 extra bonus skill points to the aforementioned skills, whereas the 8 CHA PC always has a -1 negative applied to his skill scores.

what about the -6char dwarf or orc?

Dwarves have a charisma penalty because they are more likely to take orders without question from a superior. Half-orcs have the penalty for the same reason.

If it is as low as 6, they should be pushovers, no question.

"Lad, there be gold in the bottom of this 'ere chasm, hop' 'n" "Sir yes sir!"

Nero24200 Dwarves have a charisma penalty because they are more likely to take orders without question from a superior. Half-orcs have the penalty for the same reason.

If it is as low as 6, they should be pushovers, no question.

"Lad, there be gold in the bottom of this 'ere chasm, hop' 'n" "Sir yes sir!"

thats wisdom, and int combined- cha.. is something different and rather controversial.

ya gotta be jokin!

Yeesh. Nero24200 has it extremely wrong.

Charisma is a character's ability to achieve the impact he desires from the people around him.

A Charismatic person achieves the desired impact. Whether he wants to be respected, feared, liked, or hated, if he's got a good charisma score, he can achieve that impression.

An uncharismatic person, when trying to achieve a certain impression, is more likely to achieve the complete opposite. An 8 CHA man trying to console a crying woman is more likely to call her fat and make the problem worse than he is to be her prince charming.

That said, characters with Low CHA scores but high ranks in CHA skills (persuade for example) means they have specialized in that ability, and have great skill in it, but suffer a (-1, -2) penalty to the skill because of some sort of personality fault. Maybe he's hideously ugly, so people have trouble concentrating on the words he's saying, or he stutters or smells bad. Things that will detract from the respective ability score.

A female character who's supposed to be very intimidating but has a really shrill voice or adorable dimples might actually have a low CHA score and high ranks in intimidate. But her voice and face make her significantly less frightening, while they might actually be fairly attractive otherwise.

So: high CHA is not beauty. Being extremely persuasive is not being Charismatic or attractive. It's a skill, and not different at all from any other skill.

Just for the record, having CHA as low as six makes it very difficult for you to function in any kind of society. Maybe you're a paranoid mute that shuns all contact, an argumentative asshole who insults anyone for everything, or hideously ugly and foul, causing people to turn away instinctively.

Six CHA characters have trouble dealing with anything social properly. If your Six CHA PC is not regularly being hated on by -everyone- (even your friends), you're doing something wrong.

8 CHA PCs are similar, but slightly less extreme.

And specializinig in a social skill can indeed overcome some of this, as CHA is a natural reaction of others to your PC, and the skills represent applied, erm, skill, in dealing with others in specific manners.

A low CHA PC with high persuade and/or intimidate can lead, but it will always be hollow. These type of characters often die with a knife firmly in their backs, whereas a High CHA PC can actually win over hearts and minds, and thus genuine loyalty.

For example, picture an enormous 6 CHA brute with good intimidate. He can keep men in line out of fear, but they will universally loathe him and the first chance to get out from under his heel will be eagerly leapt upon. If this same brute has 18 CHA and good Intimidate, he will rule by bullying in much the same way, but also genuinely inspire people to believe in him, and his goals.

All this being said, social skills are primarily for use with NPC interaction. Still, all players are encouraged and expected to play their abilities/skills appropriately.

Trying to ask something specific that hasn't been asked and beat on before....

Would one expect a 6 cha halforc to "get along with" another 6 cha halforc? What would be more probable? Disagreement, hostility, deceitfulness, disgust, argument --or– comradely, teamwork, plotting, sharing, cooperation?

Also the same with a 6 cha dwarf and another 6 cha dwarf. Or should I not ask this question at all?

If you're paranoid or aggressive towards everyone, why would it be any different to someone who's just as paranoid or aggressive?

Would one expect a 6 cha halforc to "get along with" another 6 cha halforc? What would be more probable? Disagreement, hostility, deceitfulness, disgust, argument --or– comradely, teamwork, plotting, sharing, cooperation?

Also the same with a 6 cha dwarf and another 6 cha dwarf. Or should I not ask this question at all?

No, they'd be even -less- likely to get along.

I always thought having 6 charisma would be like having autism

I use CHA to measure physical appearance and mental personality

Bully=low CHA high STR Paladin= High CHA cos they're wimpy nice guys.

Thats not entirely accurate, namesaretaken. Intimidate is after all a Charisma based skill.

Charisma doesnt really have anything to do with how nice, or mean you are.

A good way to check if you're playing your charisma well is:

How many friends does your character have? What are people's first impressions of your character?

-Cross (It's more difficult to specifically define how to play a particular charisma, but you can know if you're doing it well using the above)

A Bully would have high intimidation skills, not necessarily a low charisma.

A bully can quite easily be very nice to their family and friends but a complete bastard to those they bully, so I dont think any hard and fast rule about stats when it comes to a bully verses a paladin means much. Some of the worst bullies you'll see have the facard of a decent person. and others just cant believe they'd "do" such a thing. You cant tell me THOSE ones have low charisma.

I dont think theres a minimum charisma for a paladin either in 3.0 ( I may be wrong) you just lose a big portion of your abilities for having less than 12 charisma. Making it extremely unattractive to chose.

You have to divorce charisma from alignment here, they are separate things. The chaotic evil bully could be just as charismatic as the righteous paladin.

It comes down to force of personality. How large does someone feel when they walk into a room? Majre, that well known syphalitic - well, yeah. Everyone knew when she was about, she had the charisma to match. Amoth, less charisma but still fairly expansive and could get people's attention. Nichte tends to need to cough before people notice her, and very few actually like her.

I do not enjoy seeing 6cha 8int/wis characters getting along with everyone, forming parties, planning strategies, etc. It is a blatant break from the rp of a character. I will give advance warning, that I do remove xp for not playing stats well. Also know that I give good rp xp bonuses to those players that do rp their stats well.

Str/Dex/Con are taken into account automatically by the game engine, Int/Wis/Cha are not and must be role played for both high and low scores. It is one of my pet peeves watching any character who has low int trying to set a brilliant ambush and solving riddles, a low cha character leading the party keeping control of people rather politely (with no points in intimidate), or reading into peoples behaviors well enough to pick out that they are "evil"/trying to lure them into something with 8Wis. It does not fly.

Oh, good! That is mainly why I asked about the relationship between charisma and skills. My half-orc has a charisma of 8, and I certainly do not intend to start playing him as an awesome and inspiring leader. I was just wondering if, should I find myself in a position where I am in a group and forced to take charge, would it be an accurate reflection of his personality and charisma to assume that position through bullying, barking orders, and berating everyone for their idiocy? Do I have to continue relegating my half-orc to a subordinate position due to his low charisma, or can I use the tools of intimidation at his disposal in order to threaten and terrorize people into reluctantly following him? I think I like what Metro Pack said best:

"For example, picture an enormous 6 CHA brute with good intimidate. He can keep men in line out of fear, but they will universally loathe him and the first chance to get out from under his heel will be eagerly leapt upon. If this same brute has 18 CHA and good Intimidate, he will rule by bullying in much the same way, but also genuinely inspire people to believe in him, and his goals."

Is that an acceptable interpretation of the relationship?

Oh, good! That is mainly why I asked about the relationship between charisma and skills. My half-orc has a charisma of 8, and I certainly do not intend to start playing him as an awesome and inspiring leader.

That could prove to be a problem. Low Charisma characters aren't meant to be well-liked leaders (correct me if I'm wrong, but I also beleive that is one of the examples listed in the "RP your stats" rule) Hence why the classes noted in the players handbook as making good leaders eg Paladins, bards etc have charaisma as an ability for which some of their skills are dependent.

Though the image of a large half-orc barking orders sounds right, but he shouldn't be well liked.

Nero24200

Oh, good! That is mainly why I asked about the relationship between charisma and skills. My half-orc has a charisma of 8, and I certainly do not intend to start playing him as an awesome and inspiring leader.

That could prove to be a problem. Low Charisma characters aren't meant to be well-liked leaders (correct me if I'm wrong, but I also beleive that is one of the examples listed in the "RP your stats" rule) Hence why the classes noted in the players handbook as making good leaders eg Paladins, bards etc have charaisma as an ability for which some of their skills are dependent.

Though the image of a large half-orc barking orders sounds right, but he shouldn't be well liked.

But...but...I said I don't intend on making him well-liked. That would just be silly.

my dwarf with six Charisma already is having problems with the helmite Watch faction...and he isn't a leader.

Eddie Sedative. Yes, it is.

Eddie has got it down pat. He'll go far, what what!

Anyways, I hate people with a negative charisma score. Each and every character with 9 charisma or less is absolutely lame and has no redeeming characteristics whatsoever.

The most decayed flagellated equine that ever was.

Charisma is a measure of how good your character is at garnering the sort of social reactions he wants to receive or inspire in people, be they positive or negative.

A link to a previous similar thread probably would have sufficed.

Charisma is a measure of how many points you had left over on the point buy system that you couldn't use to raise a real stat.

Touche, salesman.

Question, though.

Shy wallflower character, sweet natured, quiet, nervous, but will help people as best she can selflessly, very low self esteem, etc etc. She has no confidence, no ability to lead, and I'd say that all probably translates to about Cha 10.

Next the brash, confident, cocky, arrogant character. Head so far between his own buttocks it's a wonder he hasn't suffocated. Shouts orders, expects them to be obeyed, bosses everyone around. Believes himself to be right about just about everything. Probably a paladin or something. A forceful character, everyone knows when he walks in the room. So Cha 16 or so, right?

But the first character is a lot more likely to be liked. If she is being attacked, people will stick up for her, if she asks someone for help, she won't be able to persuade them by force of argument or will, just explain and say 'I need this badly, can you help.' And if they're a good-aligned character chance is they'll take pity on her.

Whereas, from a personal opinion at least, the second will bluster and shout and people might do what he says but chance is most people will privately think he's a bit of a word I won't use on a public board. Like most people think about most paladins, actually.

So while 1 won't go out looking for friends, she is probably more likely to genuinely have them than 2, who is more self-obsessed.

How does this work? Obviously I know that there are a million different ways to play it, but in the case of these two, say - are their stats being RPed right? If 1 ends up with a wide circle of friends just from being nice to them, is that a bad thing?

The shy wallflower is being like in spite of her actions though, whilst the other is being potentially disliked because of his actions and aims.

Ten charisma is entirely average. The wallflower is neither particularly positive or negative with her personality, so it's entirely down to others to decide.

If she had, say Eight Charisma, she'd likely be too shy to even help others or ask for help, and thus be largely ignored or overlooked.

how about races with a -2 to thier charisma at start (i.e. half orc and dwarves) do these races include their racial penalties when dealing with others of the same race.... as stated above ..10 is an average joe who neither excells or sucks at making friends, leading people, or making people do what he wants them to do.

now take a dwarf... he has the same points in charisma which ends him off at 8. to other races he's rude , gruff , bothersome and down right annoying... but to the other dwarves..well he's just seen as average right? seeing as how they all have a generally lower charisma it would be seen as the normal behaviour amongst thier own kind and thus not earning them any social backlash.

a dwarf or half-orc with 10 charisma would therefore be seen as somewhat charasmatic amongst others of thier kind ..similar to a human with charisma of 12..

though the key here is that its only amongst their own kind..

thats how i always try to play the low charisma races anyways..

spawnofweevil Shy wallflower character, sweet natured, quiet, nervous, but will help people as best she can selflessly, very low self esteem, etc etc. She has no confidence, no ability to lead, and I'd say that all probably translates to about Cha 10.

spawnofweevil Next the brash, confident, cocky, arrogant character. Head so far between his own buttocks it's a wonder he hasn't suffocated. Shouts orders, expects them to be obeyed, bosses everyone around. Believes himself to be right about just about everything. Probably a paladin or something. A forceful character, everyone knows when he walks in the room. So Cha 16 or so, right?

spawnofweevil How does this work? Obviously I know that there are a million different ways to play it, but in the case of these two, say - are their stats being RPed right?

spawnofweevil If 1 ends up with a wide circle of friends just from being nice to them, is that a bad thing?

Turbospew though the key here is that its only amongst their own kind..

I've never met a paladin I liked. I usually find them self-righteous arrogant goits with a quarterstaff up the backside. Even when I'm not playing a cleric of an opposing faith. But your average paladin is generally at least cha 14. So how does that work? Obviously personal tastes are gonna come into it, but still...

A high CHA bully can be like that; having a high Charisma does not instantly make you instantly lovable. It can represent a forceful personality, in fact should; I think 8 CHA means shy and reclusive, not just someone that's rude and piggish. Lower than average CHA, in my opinion, is often played as this sort of person and it oftens creates an intimidating feel; people with 8 CHA tend not to have points in Intimidate, either (that's a generalization, don't bite my head off if your character does).

You are not mistaken. Low cha is often played as brutish and thuggish and high as lovable. It is a stereotype that needs to be overcome. The more social presence a character has the higher the cha, that social presence including intimidation (which does not have to be bruttish or thuggish by the way) and persuasion.

As stated several times in this thread (and contradicted several times, which is why I feel I must make a "This is law" statement just to extinguish these false beliefs) CHA governs your ability to garner positive and negative reactions from others. In other words, a thug is not a low CHA high STR character when it comes to intimidating people, interrogating people and portraying a scary persona. Thugs can have incredibly high CHA if need be and they'll simply intimidate the pants off of people without ever having to use their STR stat (which will inevitably be lower I guess). This is why CHA governs intimidate. PCs with low CHA won't necessarily be intimidating, but rather loathsome. They may also be too shy to actually stand up to another person and intimidate them.

And as for Spawnofweevil's point, if you see Paladins that preach with a high CHA score as pompous, zealous morons, you're not "getting it". This is what happens in FR. It's called proselytising. It's what faith classes do. It's why their class skill is persuade. You're not meant to see it necessarily as "Oh no, another crazy", since what they're talking about are actual factually living Gods that do definitely have power over their respective domains. It's not conjecture they're preaching, it's truth, and whilst there may be some who find them too intense or crazy, many people will find themselves in agreement (and likely to offer a few gold pieces as lip service to this deity, as is the polytheistic tradition of FR), and some may convert totally to this faith.

Now this is not to say I want people to switch allegiances every time a Cleric opens his gob, but there should be at least a modicum of respect (especially within the non-faith classes) for the words they're saying, unless they're manifestly against your beliefs, e.g. Cleric of Selune preaching to a mass of Shar's faithful.