For those that didn't read it:

https://efupw.com/efu1-forum/topic/13/13250/pvp-killing-people-on-quests/index.html?amp;highlight=

I tend to see the reasoning, but I do disagree on some levels.

1) I'd be okay with subdual if people learned to be afraid after losing. I can't count the number of people I've subdualed to teach a lesson (ie fear me and don't do whatever you're doing that makes me made) only to have them return later with friends to subdual me. Its not OOC fear of retribution that leads to FD, its the IC knowledge that if you leave a foe alive, he's going to come after you--so you better have a reason IC to want him alive.

2) Who is going to kill someone in a place where someone *CAN* walk in and catch you? QA's have the flaw that its scripted so no one can catch you, but the reverse is that they *are* the most logical areas where you can be alone, uninterrupted, and unseen to perform a murder. You *know* that 1) who ever hired you isn't hiring another party to check up on you 2) that guys friends aren't likely to come running to his rescue when they hear he left hired on a job 3) your quarry/victim is going to be in some dangerous situations that you can take advantage of.

Fantasy novels are chuck full of examples where, in the middle of a quest, the villain betrays his allies and either sides with the monsters or leaves them to die.

3) This is what makes me curious; dying for no reason is never fun-but if you have a reason to kill someone-taking them on a quest and betraying them is reasonable.

So I'm a little curious, is this a case of saying:

"Guys, it sucks to go on a quest, and then kill or allow to die a player who previously to this you had no reason or desire to kill and allow to die; so please don't do it."

or a case of saying

"Guys, no matter what just don't engage in PvP in a QA."

Because I entirely am happy with the first but find myself disagreeing with the second.

If you intend on doing PvP within a QA, contact a DM.

We're really talking about the former. It might make sense that a QA is the most desirable place to kill someone, and that you wouldn't want to be caught. But because of mechanics it is absolutely impossible for anyone to stumble upon you doing the deed, and really that's not very fair.

Botched killings can add to the fun as well!

You could argue that if someone who you have an IC reason to kill happens to travel with you, then it's their mistake in the first place agreeing to go kill goblins/kobolds/whatever -

HOWEVER.

Where's the fun in someone who you have no beef with suddenly ICly killing you in the middle of a quest, where nobody can hear you scream, nobody can walk in, nobody can ever get to your body/stuff ever again?

I'm entirely with Oro on this.

Dont get me wrong, I dont kill people for their loot. Right now I have a goal that I submitted an application for that requires that I sacrifice some people.

Firstly, there arent that many dark altars or pentagrams on the ground in non-quest areas. Excuse me for discerning, but usually these sorts of things are done in a spot with a little atmosphere.

Secondly, if those places existed in non-QA spots, they would likely be quite remote anyways, making them effectively as private as a QA -anyways-.

Thirdly, there is a long history of people being allowed to enter said Quest Areas from reasons spanning the gamut from Wanting to kill someone that has been avoiding them, to simply wanting to follow the party on the quest and kill all their trolls so they dont get XP (no shit, its happened!).

The entire rationale behind the Quest Area being opened in those situations is that there is no logical reason why someone couldnt walk into the temple of Hoar crypts, or the Troll Cave, and do what they want to do.

Finally, aside from jumping an entire party en-route to someplace you have heard that they are going, this is the best method for finding a sacrifice, or a slave, or whatever and getting them somewhere remote that you can work your nefarious designs upon them. You're going to tell me now that if I want to sacrifice someone to my dark god, I've got to convince them to walk with me into the Sewers? The Wilds? The Ruins?

I am wholly for some kind of rules regarding killing people in QA's, but there has to be some allowance for those of us who arent doing it for "loot". Even having to find a DM to oversee is going to likely remove the opportunity, as in my recent experience, there is never one on or available when I need some oversight.

Going on a quest with someone who's unaware that you're simply going to murder them arbitrarily at some point for your own gains (and with very little in the way of positives for THEM!) sounds astoundingly uncreative as a method of dispatching your foes.

It SHOULD be harder to do, because then it's more entertaining.

Anyway, as I said, if you get a DM's permission beforehand there's no problem. I feel that it's a fine line between griefing and being IC sometimes though.

On another server, someone took my character on a tour of the lands around the city, teaching him how to fight, where the other, smaller villages were, etc. I remember getting more and more convinced he was going to kill me with every load screen further out, especially as night was falling. But the character trusted him, so I kept going. In the end, his intentions turned out to be friendly. He led me back to the city and gave me a bunch of healing potions to see me safe. But if he had, I wouldn't have minded. He'd RPed the whole trip, and if he had successfully managed to lure someone out into the wilderness on their own and killed them (or beaten them up, robbed them and left them for dead) then good on him.

My point is, Sanctuary is surrounded by miles and miles of tunnels that rarely have anyone else in once you go a little distance. TELL someone they've been hired, or there's something they have to see - they may well think it's a DM quest. Or just lure them round the corner after the quest to share the loot somewhere private, or because you think you saw something, and kill them there.

Less abuse of the system, equally out of the way/unlikely to be found?

spawnofweevil On another server, someone took my character on a tour of the lands around the city, teaching him how to fight, where the other, smaller villages were, etc. I remember getting more and more convinced he was going to kill me with every load screen further out, especially as night was falling. But the character trusted him, so I kept going. In the end, his intentions turned out to be friendly. He led me back to the city and gave me a bunch of healing potions to see me safe. But if he had, I wouldn't have minded. He'd RPed the whole trip, and if he had successfully managed to lure someone out into the wilderness on their own and killed them (or beaten them up, robbed them and left them for dead) then good on him.

My point is, Sanctuary is surrounded by miles and miles of tunnels that rarely have anyone else in once you go a little distance. TELL someone they've been hired, or there's something they have to see - they may well think it's a DM quest. Or just lure them round the corner after the quest to share the loot somewhere private, or because you think you saw something, and kill them there.

Less abuse of the system, equally out of the way/unlikely to be found?

Exactly. Or you can use other players to 'lure your quarry' out to what they think is a safe location before falling on them.

Leading someone somewhere for the purposes of killing them, when done right, can be swell. I think a good rule of thumb about such issues is that few players would really enjoy being walloped out of nowhere and sacrificed/FD'ed to be particularly fun if they had no real way to prevent it - particularly since sacrifice almost universally represents perma-death for the sacrificed PC.

But if you pepper the process of leading them along with tons of shady RP so they've a sense that what they're doing might be unwise, I think the other player would enjoy it more, since they're participating in a story where their character is a participant as opposed to just someone who's brought along to enhance the story/prestige of the sacrificer. Some examples:

Constant, sinister laughter.

Constant eferences to a dark and evil deity that endorses sacrifice, and maybe that he needs to be appeased.

Slobbering maw, twitchy hands, fondling weapons while gazing at the victim with evil intent.

Bringing along incense, candles, a curved knife of bone, chalk, brimstone, etc.

Bringing along a huge pot, getting the halfling to crawl inside to check it's big enough, and then asking him to chew on some garlic cloves.

The issue with doing it on scripted quests is mostly that there's no way for other people to enter the area, which is largely an OOC restriction. As such, we prefer DMs to be informed so we can at the very least open a transition so other people could conceivably enter (although even that is unlikely to happen). We also like to watch because honestly I wouldn't want to see really new players who just think they're going on a quest with some experienced players, maybe are new to roleplaying, suddenly find themselves in a situation where they're killed and told they can't play their character anymore. That's a tough pill to swallow even for an experienced player, and I don't think it's in anyone's interest to chase off a potentially new player before they've even had a chance to develop rivalries or really immerse themselves in the deeper RP that EfU has to offer by having their PC randomly sacrificed.

Again, if conflict arises during the course of a quest you can resolve it through PvP -- QAs are definitely not no-PvP zones. And we're not outright banning FD sacrifices, although I will say there's a strong preference for non-random victims (target high-profile people instead of some random adventurer who wants to earn some coin).

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Try to make it stylish, try to give your victims options and clues, and do your best to make sure a DM is watching if you're planning on luring your target with the prospect of a scripted quest.

Of course, I'll say with the same breath to all other players out there that the Underdark is a very dangerous sort of place and that if they want to survive it helps to be cautious, careful, and alert both with PCs as with NPCs.

prestonhunt

Firstly, there arent that many dark altars or pentagrams on the ground in non-quest areas. Excuse me for discerning, but usually these sorts of things are done in a spot with a little atmosphere.

Secondly, if those places existed in non-QA spots, they would likely be quite remote anyways, making them effectively as private as a QA -anyways-.

Thirdly, there is a long history of people being allowed to enter said Quest Areas from reasons spanning the gamut from Wanting to kill someone that has been avoiding them, to simply wanting to follow the party on the quest and kill all their trolls so they dont get XP (no shit, its happened!).

The entire rationale behind the Quest Area being opened in those situations is that there is no logical reason why someone couldnt walk into the temple of Hoar crypts, or the Troll Cave, and do what they want to do.

Finally, aside from jumping an entire party en-route to someplace you have heard that they are going, this is the best method for finding a sacrifice, or a slave, or whatever and getting them somewhere remote that you can work your nefarious designs upon them. You're going to tell me now that if I want to sacrifice someone to my dark god, I've got to convince them to walk with me into the Sewers? The Wilds? The Ruins?

As others mentioned, it's completely possible to lure people into these areas.

I am wholly for some kind of rules regarding killing people in QA's, but there has to be some allowance for those of us who arent doing it for "loot". Even having to find a DM to oversee is going to likely remove the opportunity, as in my recent experience, there is never one on or available when I need some oversight.

I'm sympathetic about situations where DMs aren't available at all times. But with a quest area, there are definitely issues where a DM overseeing would be preferable if at all possible. Again, though, if something comes up during the course of a quest it's perfectly legitimate to respond in kind. It's mostly issues with planned sacrifice/PvP that we really do think a DM overseeing is best, just like with areas populated by NPCs.

You're going to tell me now that if I want to sacrifice someone to my dark god, I've got to convince them to walk with me into the Sewers? The Wilds? The Ruins?

Some examples: Constant, sinister laughter. Constant eferences to a dark and evil deity that endorses sacrifice, and maybe that he needs to be appeased.

The guy I was with on the other server was the opposite. Very nice. TOO nice.

Really, you've just got here and no-one knows who you are yet? Don't worry, I'm sure you'll meet someone very interesting very soon.

That shield looks very heavy. Would you like me to carry it? There's nothing for miles, so it should be fine.

We need to go through this very tight tunnel. Best take your arnour off, we don't want you getting stuck.

I see you aren't used to using that greatsword. Here, try this dagger. It's enchanted to do almost as much damage!

You look hungry. Would you like some of this lovely-smelling stew?

Etc

A big question to take into account for PvP is how much of a history you have with the character that you want to kill. If you have a consistent rivalry with a character and you find a way to lure them into a QA and weaken them and have a dramatic showdown, that's pretty cool. But if you just met them, and they think you just want to do this quest, and you kill them, it's a pretty meaningless ending for them.

I try to look at it this way: If you have a long history or an excellent plot reason to kill this specific person, and not just some person, feel free to do everything in your power to make sure they haven't the slightest chance to escape you. But if they're just some stranger, try to give them a chance. If they get freaked out and leave because you're overly nice or overly creepy, it won't make a big difference, because you didn't want them dead that badly, you just wanted someone dead.

Just a few thoughts on PvP! The more someone feels like they were involved in the result, the more sense the result will make to them, and the more fun the game will be for them. If they ignore warning signs, they know what they're getting into. If they foster conflict and thwart your plans, they know what the result might be.

Strangers getting killed in QA's where no one could ever, mechanically find them, having done nothing wrong and never having met your character before, with no warning signs whatsoever, probably don't feel very involved in that story line. And, unless they're incredibly good sports, they probably aren't having a very good time.

SongOfOrpheus totally nails it.

Alright, new rule for pvp. You have to get them to size out the dimensions of your cauldron and make them eat garlic.

<3 <3 <3 Howland

Song of Orpheus nails it indeed. I think the important part is to involve the other PC in the story somehow. If you just need some random sacrifice victim that has no clue they're going to be offed in the name of some dark god, maybe a better idea would be to inform a DM that your character is looking for a sacrifice, show them casing several likely NPCs and see if the DM will posess one for you to try luring into a secluded place. Needless to say, you should also be involving other players somehow, so get a cult together. Maybe the ritual requires a certain number of sacrificers as well as victims?

Another idea is a willing victim, someone who is groomed for the purpose of being an offering. Many stone age cultures did it this way. An enemy would be captured, then given treatment worthy of an honored guest, all the while knowing that at a preordained time they would be offered (and often horribly tortured in the process) to their captors' gods.

I would agree that killing a character for justifiable reasons on a quest if perfectly okay, but there are things to take into account

a) The quest giver is going to notice when one or more party members don't return and there is no body being carried (though this would not apply for some quests, such as hooked horrors, since it would be easy to bluff droping the body off at the mausolium whilst heading back from the dungeon)

b) It -is- meaningless to simply kill a character because you do not like them, it even states in the rules that a character needs a good reason rather than somthing along the lines of "Hey, he took an item I wanted on our last quest, I'll kill him and take it off him". Generally, if you -do- have a legit reason, then said victum would likely not want to go on a quest (unless you keep your hatred secret, but from my experience, few characters do, though that may just be for me <_<). In my personal opinion, I would deem it okay if a dm was contacted and the player "snuck in" the quest area so to speak. If the player simply joined the party and turned traitor mid-way, it does have a lesser effect when compared to someone sneaking in so well that no one even notcies until its too late.

c) Only very, very arrogent characters would attack someone whilst they have a horde of allies still going alongside, hence why I beleive it's always better to simply sneak into their room whilst they rest (again, since all inns are NPC areas, a dm will be needed). From someone who has fought off alot of asssasins, I can say that only has ever come close to actully killing my character, and that was when he snuck into my characters room, all other ones which were usally "Wait till he gets outwidth an NPC area then jump him" rarely works, since you'll never know who would walk in.

Edited to remove spoilers. Don't post specific information on the forums. Contact a DM or the players involved to hash out all issues.

Song of Orpheus

I always forget about that :) - Ruza

Don't forget that you don't -need- to kill them. A player is far more likely to "let you use" some of his blood for a ritual than he is to hang up a character totally. You always have options. If it is IC to kill, do it; otherwise consider creative alternatives as well. Sometimes a live witness to what has happened does more for your infamy than just killing him/ her would have done.

I was once privy to a rogue named Cyprus PPing a paladin to death. After thoroughly annoying the paladin, a merry chase ensued. Details differ as to what happened next, but it seems a mage/ Sorc may have held several of the people giving chase to single out the paladin. My speed as a monk and brief pause to switch from FD to subdual made me the only one to keep up with the paladin in the chase.

The chase went underground, into the sewers. The rogue knew her way and moved swiftly. His mind now fully on his quarry, the paladin continued with a single minded resolve, with me in hot pursuit. Into the next chamber we ran...and there he was; Howland the necromancer, and one of his right hand men. Not even my will save held against Howlands hold spell. Howlands right hand man dispatched the paladin effortlessly. Afterward he strode over to me and held his blade to my neck....

Had it ended right there, I would have been alright with it, but what transpired was even better: After the hold lapsed or was released, the necromancer, speaking not a single word pointed toward the door I had come in. "Why?" I asked, wanting to know what would posses him to let me live. The answer came as a second motion for me to exit, again without a single word.

There, helpless and outmatched, I remebered why I love RP servers. A true villain is one who creates memories like that and brings a little smile to your face even after all this time.

I think it is also important for people to react properly OOC to being beaten in PvP. If you are randomly killed by the other player for no reason, or full-looted, or are the victim of any of the above-mentioned unfair/unfun situations, then by all means complain. But if you are just beaten down, robbed of some gold or an item, or anything else that is just an inconvenience, don't bitch about it. It's just another interesting thing that happened to your character.

Example: I had a rather nasty character (*picks a sore on his face*) who happened upon another that mine hated. More to the point, my character had vowed to put his short sword through the other's liver. My character watched as the other finished his battle with a beast, then appeared next to him and sneak attacked him into submission. I didn't kill him, didn't rob him (not one gp), and even left him the remains of his recently killed enemy. I just wanted him to know that I could appear at any time I wished and take his life. The other player proceeded with a barrage of whining tells, asking me why, bitching, bitching some more, then telling me to "Just leave me alone!"

So as important as it is to initiate PvP properly, please remember to react to it appropriately as well.

One of my dearest memory of my own evil character was the plotting between my own character and another character who publicly acted as friends. Both wanted to surpass each other, but both needed each other's skills to achieve their goals.

My conjurer 'hired' a certain priest to beat her 'friend' and cut out her tongue. The priest could've killed her easily, but instead it led to more interesting interactions, such as getting a powerful thing to put a snake in place of her tongue.

Had I killed her, I would never have had fun interactions afterwards.

(Just like she plotted in my back, and I believe, spread rumours on my own character)

For me there is an onus on the "victim" of PvP as well as the aggressor. Several times recently I have been on a quest with a group of non-humans from a specific group (avoiding spoilers here). Now these characters are all from a distrusted and generally reviled species. They all worship dark gods. They yell the names of these gods, and the name of their group before charging into combat, doing massive damage. They all wear spiky armour in the uniform classic evil colours....

And I see freaking elves and humans of good aligned gods just join up with them without a second thought!

If your Illmater worshiping half elf gets wtfpwned during a static with them, its crazy to say it came as a surprise. The players of this group have bent over backwards to show how stupid, dangerous, violent and untrustworthy they are. Needing a few good tanks vs. the trolls’ quest isn’t a good enough reason to throw IC self-preservation out the window.

Now I am empathetic toward the fact that bodies cannot be retrieved without DM aid, so maybe on the way to the static or on the way back is better, but you cannot cry foul since you didn’t get enough quality RP.

There are some really, really bad characters on this server. Really unpleasant people you wouldn’t turn your back on if they were dead and buried (and maybe even then you’d keep an eye open to make sure they didn’t rise as undead). I see strangers joining static groups all the time. If you don’t ask around to see what that person’s reputation is, then you deserve every knife that is stuck in your kidney. This is Sanctuary for heavens sake. If Obi-Wan Kenobi walked out of the East Underdark and looked down on our city, I think you can guess what he would say. Not enough people take his advice!

In the greater sense, I also think this is better for the server. If there was more PvP conflict amongst generic, throw together groups on statics, there would be more incentive for players to band together and join/make groups. I am yet to hear a player complaining about being wtfpwned by the Society of the Ordered Mind (for example). Once people are in groups for safety, goals greater than getting to level 7 by next Wednesdays will become more common as they are exposed to the other group members ideas and motives.

scrappayeti For me there is an onus on the "victim" of PvP as well as the aggressor. Several times recently I have been on a quest with a group of non-humans from a specific group (avoiding spoilers here). Now these characters are all from a distrusted and generally reviled species. They all worship dark gods. They yell the names of these gods, and the name of their group before charging into combat, doing massive damage. They all wear spiky armour in the uniform classic evil colours....

I agree here in principle, but I don't think that simply being an elf or good aligned character has ever been justification enough to have ones character destroyed permenantly. It's more of a reflection on the 'good character's' lack of ability to think like their character, and besides, the baddies could just subdual them and teach them a life lesson, no? All the DM's here look very favorably as far as the law goes on subdual-assaults and such like, because they're actually far, far preferable to outright murder for any and all characters involved. They actually improve the quality of play on the server. Killing them leaves them with bad feelings, and sometimes that's enough to make someone stop playing.

Just because some people are stupid, it's no excuse to outright grief them.

There are some really, really bad characters on this server. Really unpleasant people you wouldn’t turn your back on if they were dead and buried (and maybe even then you’d keep an eye open to make sure they didn’t rise as undead). I see strangers joining static groups all the time. If you don’t ask around to see what that person’s reputation is, then you deserve every knife that is stuck in your kidney.

I still believe that murder should take some creative thinking to accomplish, or it cheapens it and becomes a lot less fun for the victim. It doesn't take that much to do.

In the greater sense, I also think this is better for the server. If there was more PvP conflict amongst generic, throw together groups on statics, there would be more incentive for players to band together and join/make groups. I am yet to hear a player complaining about being wtfpwned by the Society of the Ordered Mind (for example). Once people are in groups for safety, goals greater than getting to level 7 by next Wednesdays will become more common as they are exposed to the other group members ideas and motives.

I agree, but do you think the society of the ordered mind should schedule quests with so called 'evil' players with a view to killing them?

Honestly, a lot of what you're saying is absolutely true. But never, in my playing career, have I 'used' quests and quest-areas to accomplish my characters goals, or used them as staging areas for my conflicts.

There is a very good case for a long-time betrayal, a trusted friend who suddenly turns on you after a period of time in which all of a sudden, they start acting strangely before turning on you mid way through what you thought would be a routine hunt for gnolls-

There's no case for a bunch of characters who you think have no reason to permakill your character simply ending your life midway through a scripted quest - or utilising the scripted quest as some MEANS toward that end, which is where my real beef comes in.

I'm talking in general terms about people who don't need to use the QA to achieve their murders. People who use it as a matter of convenience. They know there's no chance for their prey. They know nobody is going to walk in. They know nobody is ever going to recover the body.

So yes, it becomes an OOC matter, and tantamount to griefing.

If they attacked ON THE WAY to the QA, we might be talking about a different matter entirely, but we're not, are we?

Yeah I agree completely, theres also the other type of malicious pvp which is causing the death of other players in your party, so you can then have free reign over their items.

I've also heard of (though only second hand) a person being told they could respawn when it definitely was not safe to do so.

These are extremely hard to prove and mistakes and misinterpretation can go on.

PvP is a way to evolve a story, it's not an excuse to be asshole.

I agree 100% with the beating people up (not killing) for general PvP. Even by the <race> deity worships going after their hated other <race>.

However there is also the question of 'EVIL' facing server based permadeath via stoning while the good characters dont face that risk from their "normal" behaviour.

Maybe there needs to be a change to the laws so that varoius things are better classified. (i.e intiating an attack with somebody, any sort of assault would simply just be assault.) Assault should just be a serious fining, imprisonment and city banning from repeated doses . If death occurs, and the victim chooses not to respawn then yes it's murder. Assault by spells or anything is just assault, assault with a deadly weapon is worse than somebody just punching somebody (if they're gauntlet slot is free and they have no monk levels then it's just basic assault)

'Attempted murder' could possibly be a "death" where the victim respawns then.

Another possibility is to make the game actually TELL the victim what mode the attacker is in, just like you can probably tell when somebody is trying to kill you or just subdue you (with the flat of their blade etc)

Another possibility is to make the game actually TELL the victim what mode the attacker is in, just like you can probably tell when somebody is trying to kill you or just subdue you (with the flat of their blade etc)

I was under the impression that the actual "questy" parts of scripted quests were semi-OOC anyway, wouldn't this affect PVP on them in some way?

I don't see how, killing someone in a quest area doesn't seem much different from killing them normally.

Have you been paying attention?

Killing people in QA's means that without DM oversight, the body will effectively never be found, and that the murder will almost never be found out about because people without the quest can't enter the QA, and nobody can suddenly 'happen by' the quest area.

I think the point of your post was to further say that just because it's a QA area, the same rules still apply, and that all PvP needs to meet certain standards to be legit. This is true; the issue is though, that the standards QAPvP needs to meet take a little more effort to live up to. Effort which apparently, given this entire topic of just under I think 30 posts, hasn't been being made.

Have you been paying attention?

Killing people in QA's means that without DM oversight, the body will effectively never be found, and that the murder will almost never be found out about because people without the quest can't enter the QA, and nobody can suddenly 'happen by' the quest area.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that the question was in regards to a dm being present, since the differences in killing a character in a quest area without one has already been throughly disscussed.

We have read that it shouldnt be done bareing a good reason or a dm present, should there be a dm present, then it isn't actully that different than simply killing in a secluded area, since with a dm present there is still the possibility of NPC's or PC's witnessing it

There -is- the matter of retrieving the body, bu then again, PVP is suppsoed to be fun for both sides, so if the attackers reason if very good, its likely that the player won't want to respawn anyway.

One thing that is encouraged in the rules is sending the player an OOC warning beforehand, which is somthing I agree with completely. If the person says "fair enough, sounds like a good reason" then he/she obviously isn't going to mind being killed in the quest area. If they honestly feel that killing them there would be greiving, then you know full well that a dm will be needed to see if it is okay.

The reason for killing is in my opinion, the most importent factor. I have witnessed pvps which have happened simply because a group did somthing to mildly upset another character. I particulerly hate the "We pvped before, and they won, so we're getting them back" reason. It sounds increadibly childish to me. If you want to start a rivaly with someone, try speaking to them ooc about it, you'd be surprised at the kind of responses you would get, in fact, the majority of assasination attemps on my characters, I have helped set up OOC, and they all started with "Hey scott, would it be okay if I attemped to kill your character for X reason?" and said pvps were the best ones I have ever experience on this server.

Also, as for finding the body, most QA's are more well travelled than most out-of-the-way module areas otherwise used! So that aspect isn't much of an issue in my opinion.