Dear Howland,

As I told you I have seen recently some players being unhappy about how some DM interact with player 's characters.

I will make myself the echo of their critics:

- It seems some dm in events or inside scripted quest they modify by their very presence, have on purpose tried to kill some characters because they did not like how the player was inpersonating his role.Some were even get traped between a suddenly closed exit and an epic monster - Kevven Tagnar Amal and I complained about that explicitely, and it keeps happening again and again still..

- Further more, some question the neutrality of some dm about the characters of the people they know well (friends?) as some characters seems to be able to rob and do shit on others and even while arrested they seem to get free without any problem...This point is very hard to proove I reckon., still as some players suspect it, I haven't ignored it and writen their doubts here.

- As a whole players only ask for more respect and understanding, (would I say dialogue ?) from DM.. as some DM doesn't seem to even listen to players, Right, I know, it is not easy to be a DM, nore it is to be a judge or a cop IRL, still there are good and bad cops.. so may be caring a bit more about players and some understanding will help...

As a conclusion, I think this server is one of the best of the internet, thank to Howland and his team, we enjoy a high quality server, with a great background, interesting quests, great NPC, stilla server quality is a compromise between what I just said and what the players will bring in it, so the fruit of a common work.

I feel sad to hear players saying they prefer to not go on a dm event or not questing if a dm is online, may be they overreact, may be some dm are too harsh.. may be the truth is in the middle ? Still, we all enjoy a challenging and harsh server but no one want his char killed for no good reason or no hope of escaping a certain death, as we aren't kamikaze...

I hope this suggestions will help the staff, it takes me some courage to write it up here, I have done it after hours of chat with others players.

My only hope is to see other players make suggestions to the staff so we could have a better server, some don't even dare to speak as they fear the reaction of the dms..and I guess as me they really enjoy this server so they dont want to be banned, it is a risk I took writing this post.

While I am not Howland, nor a member of the DM Team which this seems to be addressed to, I will comment anyhow, as you have placed it on a public forum, rather than sending it in an Email, which is generally how one should go about privately addressed criticisms. But, I digress.

The points you raise are points which have been raised on nearly every server I have ever played or DMed on. It is human nature to believe that someone must be to blame, for the bad things which happen to us. It's for that reason that it is often asserted that "DM's are trying to kill" our characters. Often times, people firmly believe that a DM wishes them dead. In all of the times I have seen this assertion, very rarely has it held any merit.

As for some players being favoured, I think that what comes into play is this- Players who are more active, and are doing more IG will be getting more attention, because they are creating more opportunities for others. It's only natural that those who are giving back, get a little in return. These people are inevitably in contact with the DMs often, and as such, many people jump to the conclusion that "They're getting stuff done, because the DMs like them". Without the consideration of "The DMs like them, because they get stuff done". Now, thats hardly to say that the DMs favour people who are more in the spotlight than others. It simply means that the people who step up, and create the environment of EfU will invariably require more DM Attention.

As for your last point, I apologize but I find it to be fundamentally flawed. I am 100% positive that you will not find a more receptive DM Team, anywhere, in all of NwN.

I hate to say it, but when I hear that someone is afraid to quest when DMs are on, I can't help but thinking that they are avoiding DM attention because they are "trying to get away with something" that the DMs won't allow because it goes against the rules and philosophy behind them. I've never seen the DM team here treat anyone unfairly, but I have seen them be very quick to crack down on any sort of cheating or griefing. I'm not accusing you or your friends of anything, but I do suggest you take a good look at the rules and guidelines of the server to make sure that you aren't doing anything that is frowned upon.

I was thinking about sending and email but I thought it would be better to debate between players about this topic, after all our ideal is democracy yes or no ?

As I read you it seems there is no problem, still I do think there is a problem in this server seeing a dm hunting down a useless mage , regarless of the powerful fighters around him and crazy things like that... the sort you you can't explain by in game reason..

Also I forgot to mention Merien who also complained to me about this topic.. that makes a bunch of people..no ? I would like to see what the southearts dwarves players have to say about it...And the people who saw the ogres mess quest or the orogs attack in dunwarren..

Plus as a very active player, I am not bitter as you seem to explain about how the dm threats me, I am more than satisfyed about the xp I earned with my Roleplay with my character Fargo; it was probably too much, still I am not the personal friend of any dm I reckon. I will suggest the dm to try to include more players in their plots and not always the same then if it is the central question.. I have seen great roleplayers who are kept out of the plot, I am sure they will give alot if they were allowed to play in dm event without fearing a certain death.

Again, I dont pretend to hold the truth, I am just telling my feelings, I felt very bad to hear a very good player (Amal) saying he will quit this server because of the reasons I told you.I am sure we are adult enough to understand what is the problem and solve it.

outcrowd1: No, I actively seek to avoid DM interactions and DM quests because I suck at NWN. Thank you very much.

Fargo ...I do think there is a problem in this server seeing a dm hunting down a useless mage , regarless of the powerful fighters around him and crazy things like that... the sort you you can't explain by in game reason..

These topics can be discussed equally well without the names of individuals besides yourself within the message body.

This should have been an email, bottom line.

-UnholyWon

Snoteye

Fargo ...I do think there is a problem in this server seeing a dm hunting down a useless mage , regarless of the powerful fighters around him and crazy things like that... the sort you you can't explain by in game reason..

I'm not exactly sure how you cannot explain this ICly. I could justify an 8 Wis, 8 Int PC going straight for the mage(s), if only because their staying in the back, usually armorless, makes them easier targets. And it's only natural to go for the characters that can turn the tide of battle in a matter of moments.

I have a problem with characters just running past defenders easily, it's a problem in the rules, AOO just arent enough. realistically if you ran past somebody who's attacking you and you didnt turn to face them you'd be dead in one blow. The only way you could do it safely would be to skirt around them facing them till your back is to the mage, then turn and run away.. toward the mage target.

According to the PnP rules, that's not entirely correct. By default, a PC only has 1 AOO/round, so running right past the frontline is definitely possible. I also don't think it's particularly OOC, because it'd be up to the tanksd to defend the spellcaster(s) -- it's just that they often neglect this responsibility as if they fail to realize that their key to winning the battle often shoots a crossbow, wears no armor, and has low HP. Hell, I'd encourage players and DMs alike to go for spellcasters instead of just leaving the tanks on the frontline, waiting for them to chuck through the nearest hostile only to head for the next straight away.

also in regards to certain charecters being targeted you also have to remember that certain races in the game (Drow for example) are actually very intelligent and its simple miltary stratagy to go for either the leader or the one doing all the buffing/healing (I believe the saying cut off the head and the body will die applies here)

Its pretty clever when PCs run past the front line to take out the mage in back. Its just as clever when the NPCs do it. Its not someone "trying" to kill them, its just a tactic used by PCs and NPCs.

For the record, I can tell you've never even *used* the DM client. A DM can't control a monster AND shut doors magically at the same time.

As for "great roleplayers" kept out of plots, that is always malarky. What you've seen is "great roleplayers" who don't get involved in plots. It takes work and effort. I can honestly say that I'm one of the better roleplayers on this server, and plots don't fall into my lap. I have to chase them down, wiggle my way in, and get myself involved.

The fact that I get myself involved makes me look like I'm a DM favorite. I doubt that's actually the case, I am friendly with some DMs and not as friendly with others, and some I don't even know at all.

If your friends want to quit, then they need to be "adult enough" as you say to talk to the DMs who can help them. Not have you post their names, issues, complaints on the forums here. It won't really help, this isn't really a democracy.

The DMs built the server, they pay for the server, and ultimately they do all the "work" of the server with a few players who are happy to volunteer. You just come here and play, and if you don't enjoy playing here you should either discuss your problems with the DMs or find a server you can enjoy.

I know I recently had a situation where I was extremely frustrated with what I felt was unfair behavior from a DM. I discussed it with the DM, and he didn't agree with me. I still felt it wasn't fair so I sent the DMs an e-mail so we can talk it over. That's the proper response, that is the adult response.

If you have a fight with your brother or your boss, you don't post it up in the living room or office for everyone to talk it out. If you do, don't expect a very positive reception except for the other people who may PM their complaints to you, add to your negativity, make you feel justified, and merely increase the overall discontent that you could solve yourself by hopping into IRC to talk to a few DMs about.

Yes, indeed, this should have been an email.

Also, while I can guarantee that none of the DMs deliberately kill certain characters, it's extremely difficult for us to even understand what events you're talking about. Without specifics it's all just noise, and we can't really discuss it when we have no idea what you're talking about.

Thirdly, you talk about player complaints, well, we haven't received any from most of those people you mentioned. So I guess it's not that bad!

Disclaimer : NOTE FOR THE RECORD, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEW OF THE DM STAFF AS A WHOLE, JUST MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION! Do you know what the real problem is, Fargo? The real problem is that players can never accept that some circumstances are outside of their control.

Some players have the opinion that this server should be a simple, easy, neverending treadmill up to the higher levels a'la world of warcraft, albeit with enforced roleplaying and some thought of character. Thusly, it should be about time, and their time spent on the server as an directly correlated graph - the more time spent on the server, the more experience they should have.

Thusly, any interruption in this neverending grind is seen as an affront. 'I have done this quest 1000 times before and nobody has ever died!' they say. 'How dare the DM alter it slightly, to stop me on my neverending treadmill! We are clearly excellent players, after all, we have done the same quests over and over again day after day, without any trouble. Clearly the reason we died was because this quest was altered to make it overpowering to our characters!'. And when the complaint is politely rejected by the DM in question, then it becomes a personal issue. They have to have some validation, to prove to themselves that it was definitely not their fault that they had such trouble. So they start ranting about it to their friends. They start telling everyone how DM X is out to get them, so all of a sudden, DM X gets a reputation. In future, whenever anything happens that is bad, DM X gets the blame.

Later on, the rumors all spread further. People start to believe that they MUST be true (after all, they died on such-and-such while this other character who clearly is a DM pet was allowed to live. The rumors must be true!) so they post on the forums, instead of doing the mature thing and speaking to the DM's in question, then leaving it at that. The poison spreads further. And so on, and so forth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfxAPWi6kA

I love you metro

Why not writing an email ?

I wanted to start a debate in order to have as much opinion as possible, there are some good explanations here especially by the DM that help us all understand how some players can feel targeted and how it might indeed be an illusion.

I wanted to see if people who did complain will write down here their problem and they did not, why ? they must have their own reason, still we had an interesting debate.

Again, I do think EFU is my favorite server and if you permit this little analogy even a faithful christian (or muslim, jew)can have doubts about his own faith, questioning it help you improve your reasoning.Doubt is very important in the reasoning process as Descartes said.The limit is getting paranoid and doubt about everything and everyone, my explanation about how players could think they are hunted by some DM is in the very nature of this server setting, characters evolve in a dark and gloomy environment, dangerous with faction struggle where death awaits you at the next street corner...So your character have the right to become paranoid, thus players should'nt become paranoid themselves about DM.

After what I seen, I am myself confident in the staff, the DM came here and gave us good ananlysis while the players who were complaining did not even posted their thougts here..

Finally, I want to say a word to other players about how it is difficult to be a fair DM and same with handling other authority function in a society.Dm give their time for us in a benevolent way, I always keep that in mind when I express a critic.

Also, I reckon we have a very high quality server here, I would even dare to say Howland is a genius, as a pen and paper DM, his creation even helped me to figures out my own vision of the underdark, and I say that frankly.

So long live the EFU, my only wish is a better communication between ALL players and the STAFF.

I want to point out, that in situations where some hidden/sneaking/invisible NPC kills a certain character from behind the frontliners, I doubt there is any wish to kill a certain player, but a certain type of character. I mean, wouldn't you try to kill the nasty archer/mage in the back? Much easier to get rid of that punk and then go for the frontliner when he doesn't have any buddies to help him anymore.

Seriously, I know, that I would do it. I've played archer character and faced the assasins and rogues coming after me, but I haven't been angry about it, because I know I would do it also. Hell, I've been angry about dying, sad, but never have I thought that a DM would be after me. And as I had to interact with DM's and many, well with a word, annoying, players, I know for sure that our DMs are the most understanding and forgiving people that you can hope to find in NWN.

My best wishes to all, if you want to give out feedback, send a DM, talk to one in IRC and etc. They won't drop the sky on you.

[is backing dms 100% on every spice, especially metro spice.]

send in the <3 my way.

Dm Spice is the <3, its hard, no shit, but SO rewarding !-!-!, I remember all my dm spices, yet I dont give a crap about all my scripted quests where nothing happened.

Your char will eventually piss off the wrong peoples who will pack the Shazbam on you; dm spice is a very nice "Test" preparation for that

but yeah, mages do get kill easily but they pack the SHAAZBAM! If I pvp, i know I will -always- go for ennemy spellcasters. its just natural, if they dont have an invisibility spell ready, well - thats an essential you should cross on your list before adventuring.

but yeah, live and learn, at least its just a game.

(( <_> ))

[EDIT by DM - Spoilers removed!]

but yeah, mages do get kill easily but they pack the SHAAZBAM! If I pvp, i know I will -always- go for ennemy spellcasters. its just natural, if they dont have an invisibility spell ready, well - thats an essential you should cross on your list before adventuring.

I don't like that mentality, if every wizard knows and preperes the exact same spells, then whats the point of having more than one? I would rather characters prepere a variety of spells, and kept what spells they prepere different from other spellcasters.

its not a "mentality", its a tip. chew on it.

Nero24200

but yeah, mages do get kill easily but they pack the SHAAZBAM! If I pvp, i know I will -always- go for ennemy spellcasters. its just natural, if they dont have an invisibility spell ready, well - thats an essential you should cross on your list before adventuring.

I don't like that mentality, if every wizard knows and preperes the exact same spells, then whats the point of having more than one? I would rather characters prepere a variety of spells, and kept what spells they prepere different from other spellcasters.

Every wizard is different. The trouble is, a clever wizard will always have a way to get out of combat--and invisibility tends to be the best one in a game that lacks Dimension Door, Mirror Image, and similar spells.

The DMs give us much love. The only time i have ever thought the DM was out to get me was when i got Bodak Death rayed. But Bodaks have death ray for a reason, y'know!

So, yeah. DMs kill players when they possess things. It's sort of a DM job. Where would the fun be in the DM possessing the Trolls and making them knit socks?

DM's are people too, they can make mistakes.

And ummm.... i dont think i've even seen a DM target an individual.

Apart from that metropakt guy, always killing people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BGrFku2itk

I know what is feels like to have a dm after you. I'm just mentioning this as a sort of comparison to add to the point that DM's aren't out to kill us all. This is something that happened to me on another server, mentioning no names.

I was playing a character who had become really cocky and really big headed after she had saved the server world because her 'plan', that she stuck to, had worked against all odds and against everyone elses 'plans' that had failed.

So my character was prancing around boasting away saying how she was right and how others were wrong. One of the characters she was 'laughing' at happened to be a DM on as a player. My character supposingly really upset the DM's character.

So what happened later on? I was on a bit of a questing with a small party when suddenly out of no where we are confronted with the fations this DM was in charge of. I had no way out and my character was killed and there was absolutely no explanation or reasonable reason why this faction would be out to get my character (my character did get revived but only due to a fate point system we had on the server).

So I eventually discovered it was out of spite of me playing a cocky character. The worse thing was I had to change my characters personality so it wouldn't happen again and there was no closure and no excuse to as why my character was killed - I had to pretty much had to ignore it ICly.

Now I am not saying this DM was a bad DM - she was actully pretty damn good when it came to events and such. But she also killed off another character randomly because the player was a bit of an idiot (you know, 'one of them').

That is what happens when a DM is after you. I know for a fact that the DM's on this server is nothing like this.

Yeah thats an experience nobody wants.

A d.m is the storyteller, and in all good stories there are trials and tribulations. However nobody likes their story ENDED for the sake of anothers unless it's actually time for that to happen. People dont like to give up on their time investment (and i'm not talking about xp or levels here) Some characters/players DO have the ear of certain d.m's , when they suggest something, like burning down a town house they can get it done. This might sound like favouritism but it's often just because they know the player will run with it well (from past experience) However this doesnt mean that you cant do something of significance like that, you just have to schedule it in advance. Book a d.m if you wish. A GMT -5 7.30pm I have a plot where I want to X. Should take about 40 mins. Can you lay some props for me etc? There isnt time for a d.m to do this for everyone, but these d.ms DO try hard especially when they see a plot involving other players and maximising the fun for the most people.

D.m's are human too and yes they make mistakes with balance sometimes, they overestimate a parties strength, there really isnt time to go through the builds of all characters in a party to see what they can handle. People like a challenge, but not something that will steamroller them, theres no point and it isnt fun. It's a fine line to walk. I've seen way more d.m's do a GOOD job of balance /story/challenge than i've seen do a bad job of it. I've also seen d.m's undo the damage they've mistakenly caused and even more kudos to them for honorable conduct.

As always treating others like you'd treat yourself is the secret, you just have to hope you dont run into many masochists :D

We do our best, we're not for everyone, and people with concerns are more than welcome to send us an e-mail or find a DM privately.

Fargo I was thinking about sending and email but I thought it would be better to debate between players about this topic, after all our ideal is democracy yes or no ?

D&D/PnP/PWs are never democracies. When you set foot in the fictional world that the server supports, you are at the mercy of the elements. And in this case, the elements are the Dungeon Masters. They are fair and humane, yes, but remember, it's their dungeon, not yours. The case is especially true in PWs where you are not always the center of attention and must act in a world changing around you.

So, for now on, consider EfU a belevolent dictatorship. It may save you some trouble whether it is true or not.

chaosprism People like a challenge, but not something that will steamroller them, theres no point and it isnt fun. It's a fine line to walk.

I agree about quests changing, if a d.m does stuff inside a quest , uses it as a hook to do something interesting inside a quest zone, it shouldnt be forgotten, it should remain part of the quest.

Also I'm for the notion of changing the names of the quest "bosses" if a d.m supervised quest is completed with the previous boss removed. It's hard to do a quest again, and pretend you didnt do it just yesterday, even though you're using a weapon that dropped from the boss of that very quest. It's harder to make a system that can cater for that.

A d.m quest for example killed private schaffer in the rock, theres a new name there now, this is the sort of persistance that makes for enhanced immersion.

People will be people. Some will try and cheat. Others will abid by the rules. Others will abide by the rules, but complain about them. And yet others will abide by the rules and openly praise them.

I've been all of these people at one time or another on this server and the DM's know it. But no matter what experience, good or bad, that I've had with them and this module, in the long run I've enjoyed playing here.

And that's what I consider most important.

If you feel you're not enjoying your stay here, perhaps this isn't the sort of module that makes you feel at home. There are many other servers out there, each with a unique take on the NWN version of the Forgotten Realms. Perhaps on of those will make you feel more comfortable.

Fargo Why not writing an email ?

I wanted to start a debate.

I think there's a difference between a Public Forum Debate and a Public Forum [in terms of a webpage] debate.

While I do know the feeling of having a DM working against you. I can remain hopeful that just one day my radical ideas will be accepted. Most of my ideas are shot down instantly without much conversation on the part of a DM who merely state 'No, think about it more, to much, think about it more and maybe we'll do it'.

I still however, hope, that through my persistance and pateince (yes I know I don't exihibit it, but I'm getting better) I will finally get my ideas to the point in which the entire EFU world is effected. While I am a busy person I stilll try to get my daily EFU in and the hopes that maybe my plots can be seen.

For instance recently the DMs are taking a note about my newest plot, which will remain a secert. But it may shake up all of Sanctuary. I'm still consulting with them before I send in my application for the DM quest. But its the introduction of a new-old charecter, reborn, and very different.

This charecter was one of my favorites and I felt crushed when he was murdered and it felt the DMs were working against my best intereset. Due to the fact I can't respawn after PvP. But hey its all good, nothing is forever, and if you are really bored your persistance can get you what you want. For this PC won't remain dead for long...

The idea that we might find something unexpected and overpowered for us on a mission is one of the things that stops it being a workaday job and keeps it an 'adventure'.

Sometimes, just getting away is feels like a hard earned victory. An actual victory that was far from assured feels like a real achievement, and not something that simply fell into your characters hands.

Most RPGs the PC wins because his stats were suitably better powered than the enemy, or they outsmarted a particularly stupid monster AI. Especially with the established quests here I like them sometimes being set at 'too hard', unpredictably. I like it best when you are given at least a chance to work this out and run.

Perhaps its the same way I cant bother to watch hollywood films, where we know the hero will overcome everything with consumate ease, and no sacrifice at all. A suitably tough server, and I dont know when I log on if my characters life today will be an heroic sage, an inconclusive struggle or a bitter tragedy.

One of my most fond memories of CoA is a characters death. Poor cautious Cal the Lacky. An honest man who thought of himself as a 'servant to adventurers', not a hero. The party was large and averaged nearly twice his lvl.

On this GM mission there was a pile of undead. So the low lvl rogue was hardly likely to play the hero. A runin with a greater mummy had clerics futilely spamming 'turn', the warriors running into the fear aura and running out like little girls. The Paladin trying frantically to hold it off, while the party scattered in two different directions.

Cal began to think about what he could do to 'help his betters', got hold of the mummies treasure and found a strong fire trap. Given that mummies are supposed to burn and nothing else was working he tried to set it around a corner and hoped to lure the mummy into it. Alas, fighting going on meant a dice roll...which set off the trap. Enough fire damage to kill a greater mummy will certainly do in a low lvl rogue. But it was such a nice try.

Sometimes I find it more interesting to play the person who's honestly trying to do what they can, under difficult circumstances, than to play the 'hero' assured of a gloriously easy victory.

Jadelink

From time to time your characters will die. From time to time a dm will be why. The more mature you are in these instances, the better off you will be as a person in RL.

There is nothing like having your heart cut out by a couple uber monks in the first weeks of the server to help you understand that dms -can- kill you, but if you hadn't done the stupid shit that you did, you might not have died. You might have died anyway. The main point is that -your- life goes on. So quit your bitching and instead put that energy into finding a creative solution to your current situation.

The dms are not out to get anyone, they are there to make the world what it is, a place with consequences and dangers. Crosswind aside, they are not bad people. However, they tend to know when they've messed up and when they haven't and you should respect their judgement on these things. After all, many of them have been doing this a long time.