I've a few observations about the Council, I'm curious about other players observations. The Council seems like a great faction, a way to make a real impact on the server but few people seem to seriously get involved with it either as candidates, or as allies of candidates. Those that do get involved, occasionally seem to have little impact or feel like they make less impact than they'd like at least.

Some things I've noticed from studying political history a lot this year is that normally in democracies of any kind there is the spoils system. Elected officials get to appoint friends to various positions that earn them gold, power, prestige. This doesn't happen in the Sanctuary Council though.

I've noticed that interest in the elections appears to be waning, and I'm curious what other people think about the Council. I've played two characters on it and noticed that there isn't as much benefit for evil characters to serve as I'd hoped; few bribes, no spoils, little way to make direct immediate profits like you can in real world governments (throughout history).

So I'm just curious, why there isn't more interest in the Council, elections, joining that's readily apparent to myself at least.

Well, nearing the close of my first (and hopefully not last!) term as a Councilor, I have to say I agree and disagree.

It is true, there is very little monetary gain in being a Councilor. You are given a moderate amount, to last you the entire term. This amount is less than could be made in a couple days of questing.

At times, I feel frustrated by the bureacratic, and democratic nature of the Council, but I suspect that is in part what it was designed to be, so it has succeeded. The truth is, Councilors have a fair amount of power, it is merely slow in coming, and not always readily visable. This can cause people to be uncertain as to what exactly Councilors are able to accomplish.

So, all in all, I agree that the Council could use a bit more incentive, but I feel that overall, the faction is working perfectly.

I have never had much contact with the council, but from what I have seen, the people got on the council, then (With the exception of archibald to an extent) proceeded to do very little. But then, what can you expect, these are hero's not politicians. Infact the only councilors I've seen do anything since being voted in, are Frum Highill and Alexander Archibald. Although I may be wrong, of course if I'm correct 2 councilors are dead so they have an excuse. One was dead within what... 2 days of being elected? I also think you guys have yet to realise the power you hold in your hands, you can manipulate sanctuary in ways that no one else can. Of course the two most active councilors also have the biggest distractions, namely being the Archibald estate, and Frum's emporium.

Ok I'm rambling now. Shutting up

Ninja Edited

I think you may be overestimating the power that Councilors hold by a bit, Clucky. Councilors are only 1/9th of the Council. Trying to get these 9 people to agree on something? Impossible.

You need a lobbyist

Um...DC I never got any money.

One thing is the "power of the purse" is the Council's biggest asset. Its the reason the other factions should respect the Council's authority; lots of factions that get their support from the Council show the Councilors little respect, and have no concept of their authority.

I think that is because voting on budgets comes too late in the session; by the time half the PC Councilors have died. I'd suggest moving it up, even through IC means just by having NPCs realize that "Gee, Councilors are rarely around at the end of the session when the budget goes through."

There can be in the "spoils" department the traditional things too--

PC "registrars" who are payed to handle reports, collate information, run the 'information dissemination' aspect of the Councilor they work for. It was pretty traditional for elected officials to get a stipend to appoint their own clerks.

Personally, I think there should be less NPC Councilors and more PC Councilors, keep the 9 person council but have 6 PC Councilors and 3 NPC Councilors. It allows for more plotting and a more dynamic (and fast acting) Council.

The whole system, by and large, should be expanded. Instead of having the Councilor's be the Judges, they should be other PC's elected by the Councilors, as well as the Commander for the Spellguard, Sheriff for the Watch, and other minor offices within the city.

It allows you to appoint friends to certain offices, it allows for political corruption, it allows for bribes and such as well. It also gives the Council more power and makes being a Councilor far more important.

We would also see more public political debates among the councilors if there were more PC Councilors.

The Council is definitely an awesome part of EfU that I agree could be vastly improved. The player-base likely isn't aware of this, but there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes in terms of votes and debate, tragically most of it inevitably on the forums.

Part of the problem, and I offer a sincere apology to the PC Councilor players because of this, is that the only DM who's ever really been able to do the NPCs justice is Arkov who's time these days is extremely limited (and much better spent scripting, since he's absolutely invaluable there). I do my best, but I really don't enjoy forum work and tend to put off long-winded NPC responses to proposed laws and such.

A bigger problem is that PC Councilors tend to disappear, retire, or get killed. Actually very few were assassinated in a way that they couldn't help, what's been more common is for the PCs involved to do really crazy IC things, put themselves at huge risk, or just sort of disappear. And once a handful of PCs go, the moment tends to just go away.

I 100% would like to see as much of a PC Council as possible. I'd probably always want at least one NPC Councilor to handle trials when needed, but even that could be addressed by some kind of Council-appointed judge system.

Part of the solution, I think, for the Council would be having some kind of political party system. Just as in RL, tends get to thing passed easier in a democratic system if people band together to help vote each other's legislation. So I would encourage PCs to consider banding together with like-minded PCs and trying to build political alliances.

I am optimistic about the next term, which is happening soon, and would encourage anyone who'd like to give it a shot to sign up and -start campaigning-. Voting isn't all that far away actually!

Not only do you have an unmatched opportunity to change the nature of the game world as you see fit, but I'll say on the record now that anyone who plays an awesome Councilor will be showered with loot and XP by myself personally.

Council has interested me greatly.

While I doubt my current character can achieve such, my next one I hope to fully.

Terrific concept really, and I would like to see a bit more corruption in the system (Though I'm sure there's ample), I do not believe asking the DMs to make positions more free to appointment is the way to do such, as I can not think of any alternatives though, I suppose I'll leave it at that.

I was only there for one term, but I definitely agree that the more pc councilors there are, the better. By the end, my pc was the only one left alive, with 6 other npc councilors, which of course makes it hard to get stuff done. Of course, I'm sure there's more that -I- could have done to make things happen, but it felt hard to accomplish anything (pass any laws/plans, etc.).

So yeah, just basically echoing everyone else here. The more pc councilors, the better! So run! That loot and xp is only a registration fee away.

Equipping the Sanctuary Council with an ample, cumbersome bureaucracy is an awesome idea that could be pursued in game with a good chance of success, I think. It'd also increase the way the Council acts on the lives of characters that aren't part of it. You could have PCs fill the posts of those blue-dressed city officials. It'd be pretty cool.

- Kia

The player base is not large enough or does not have sufficient interest for a huge bureaucracy.

Allowing PC Councilors to appoint secretaries that would have access to Council forums might be worth doing though.

I personally think the Council was awesome and I was able to do an assload with it. Given the fact my character was a LG Paladin opposed to the evil characters who seem to be the focus of this thread (Though Sanctuary is as easily as geared towards evil as it is good).

I personally feel the limit is all imagination and nothing more.

I don't believe anyone said "limit" though Inquisitor. I said there is occasionally less impact than players involved would want, or could obtain.

Even Ivandur frankly didn't do as much as he could have done. The point of the conversation isn't to raise "what the limits" are but to consider "what more" could be done. I believe voting for the next Council starts in less than a week, and so far no one appears to be running.

That led me to realize that interest in the Council appears to be waning.

As for political parties, I know I've tried to do that several times. Yet with most players unsure of what actions even obtain votes, it doesn't 'feel' effective. If you put up posters on the forum to campaign, there is never an NPC response or way to gauge it--instead you just inevitably get the PC responses. If you make speeches in game, there is never an NPC response (in my experience, and I think I'm one of the more prolific speech makers).

Another issue is that many players don't "play politics". The idea of "I'll support your initiative if you support mine" seems to get lost. This is more a suggestion, but to be a Councilor means you should ideally have an agenda, a set of laws, changes, improvements that you want to get passed into law. To get these things into law, you should be willing and ready to make deals with the other Councilors. Some characters may not do that, but I'd think the majority of those getting into politics would. If you want a law to make wearing the color green impossible, you might write a fellow Councilor to point out that you'll support his law to make unsalted mushrooms illegal to sell in the city but only if he supports your ban on the color green first--and you'ld do that even if you think unsalted mushrooms should be illegal.

NPC Councilors I learned are a lot harder to influence, or to even figure out an opinion from partially since the DMs who do handle the Council are busy. Just keep in mind that most NPC Councilors have a DM faction that they're close allies too, so when you can't influence them-try to influence their allies.

Take it to the limit.

Interest in the council has really subsided or anything, in fact, I beleive the elections are currently underway if they wern't (and I was swapmed with coursework for the last few weeks) I would have had one of my characters apply for a councilmember

One problem facing councilmembers though, they genearlly have a low life expectency

I am a relatively new player, so I may lack some perspective on this topic, but perhaps the Council would be a more effective role-play hook if it maintained a more prominent public presence in game. I have been playing here for nearly a month now, and this is the first I have ever even heard of any manner of player driven Council. Has there been any campaigning in game? I have not personally witnessed any baby-kissing and hand-shaking. Although, that could just be a result of me not being in the right place at the right time.

Elections begin in a few days, and it looks like most people have more or less post-poned signing up. I'd expect to see campaigning start soon, and occur a lot during the election cycle.

If anyone wants to run, get in touch with a DM ASAP to register.

With all of the campaigning in the Lower, and re-campaigning, it could be that people don't see point in spending so much time when they must do it all over again after half the group dies off. Most of it dealt with hating the Upper anyway.

I haven't been here that long, but voted in the last election. Didn't know all of the groups. And I believe that only 1 or 2 actually campaigned ingame to me or in earshot. Not everyone hangs onto the Forums. In game handing out flyers and giving speeches here and there would be a better way to reach the newer folk and keep things in game to encourage RP.

No one has yet to pay me to vote for them. No one has yet to tell me what 'I' get for voting for them. No one bussed me and my friends to the polling place with donuts and coffee.

For those running for council, remember that people want something from you, either give it or lie behind you teeth and promise it anyway.

Of course my vote is already decided. :wink:

Voting goes on for what seems to be a week after the first day of the FR month? I guess I don't see the point of campaigning so early when it still seems like there are roughly 10 days left to do it.

At any rate, Joe Desu, you are right. Forum spam + IG spam is ideal, but the only way we as players can really let the entire DM team know what we are up to is with the forum spam. That's really why you see more of it, than the IG spam. That, and players campaigning can't be around for all the timezones - which could be why your PC doesn't see much of it in game.

Look forward to publicity stunts in game from my PC at least - complete with dolls of Illithids with knives being gouged into their heads!

I think the council is very good, there are many benefits to be had, as i found later on, the starting weeks i didnt really know, what i could and could not do.

I did find it very confusing to start, the first week or so, i didnt really know where to post and such and after using the irc room for the councilers i found i could not log into again, im not computer friendly, forums and things i've never really used till now, i must say it would have helped me greatly being able to employ or grant postions to those close to me, i do belive that a month in council is not long enough to see anything through, perhaps a longer term.

Don't know if something similar exists already, but in case it doesn't: Perhaps making a new topic under the "In-Character Forums", concerning only elections, like campaign posters and the like, as I have a hard time finding all the different election stuff around the forum. Just a suggestion... :)

Perhaps the opening of a Campaigning forum, where all registered candidates can post their decree. The forum is closed post election, and reopened next council season. That would make life easier for readers looking for who to vote for.

I think thats a really good idea, Fish.

[Stamp O' Approval]

I think that if the NPC Counilors were to hire the 'best and brightest' PCs to work as their agents, it would do a lot. Right now, it seems like Bhast and the other NPCs are just sort of there. If they had PCs working to make their agendas happen, this would do a lot. There's the issue of DMs having more work with this, but I think that letters listing weekly objectives with some occasional interaction would work well.

The second big step that can be taken is increasing their stipend. Give them resources with which to hire agents and actually make their plans happen. Nothing insane, of course, but enough that they can hire two or three acting retainers, an assassin or two, and a couple of scribes. It would really bring the members of the Council who are not active PCs (Archibald and the late Dungal Toboerski being the models of this sort of behavior) out of the shadows as they flesh out their agendas.

As for councilors being short lived, I think this is pretty much the way it works.

a) First of all realistically a place like this , councilors would have body guards especially after the past events, if they dont then they're in trouble against anyone trying to remove them.

b) The bodyguard (and the councilor as a team) NEEDS to be stronger than a whole party of "assassins" trying to kill the councilor otherwise they're always going to lose. Given that the assassins will 99% have suprise on their side as well (which is a huge thing)

c) The councilor and his bodyguard(s) player may not always be on at the same time, which creates problems as well.

d) Politics being the way it is , is ALWAYS going to annoy one group or another whatever gets decided, somebody will be blamed regardless if they're actually at fault or not. The more violent and militant people will decide that removing that councilor permanently is the most prudent (and easiest) course of action.

All these point to a shorter than average life expectancy.