Thought I'd share this with our greatly varied server of personality;

Something not to laugh about : If they know of him at all, many folks think Ben Stein is just a quirky actor/comedian who talks in a monotone. He's also a very intelligent attorney who knows how to put ideas and words together in such a way as to sway juries and make people think clearly. The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary : Herewith at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don't know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise's wife. Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. If this is what it means to be no longer young. It's not so bad. Next confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don' t feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas" to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution, and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to. In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this Happen?" (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about and we said OK. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

Only part of that was actually written by Ben Stein.

Link

...hm...

Cant say I agree completely with him and/or whomever wrote the second half. But I also don't like getting into these kinds of discussions on the forum. People always get angry or insulted. I mean, I'd love to have a very thought out rational conversation... but the chances are a bit too unlikely.

So'll sum up. I have no Religion, I say this because that statement should not make me be seen as an immoral person, or an anti-religious fanatic. So whether your Religious or not, offer other people respect. The post refers to that through the medium of religion. Respecting other people is one of the best things you can do in your life. Thats what it all comes down to.

I'm amazed at how the tone changed between Stein and the anonymous other. Whether I agree with his politics or not, Stein is a skilled speechwriter who knows how to get his point across with finesse and with respect. Not so for the anonymous other.

As for the discussions about religion, I don't mind them, but I do notice that they're easier to have in real time and far easier to have when I'm already comfortable with the other people.

Ben Stein was a speech writer for Richard Nixon. He's a well known conservative; then again he gives financial advise to LA hookers. So I figure he's a pretty liberal on some issues.

The end point though is that there is just so much blindness when you put God into any argument. Its the ability to claim that 1) I do not really know what is going on 2) God knows and can fix it 3) however, we can never know God fully or how he'll fix it 4) So I really still don't know what is going on, but hope God will fix it because a) I know he will based on everything I know about him b) yes, I know I still don't know anything about God except what I think I know...which is horribly horribly fuzzy.

I'd also like to address a really common, and really frustrating belief.

1) America is a Christian Country. or 2) America is a secular nation.

Both are false.

Its a stupid argument generally utilized for political reasons by stupid people who don't look up the facts.

The fact is America is a Diestic nation. It believes in God, always has--almost every Founding Father was a Deist. However, Deists believe God made the world, gave some rules for its running, and then went on vacation. So he's not bowing out of my schools, he'd been gone for centuries before the school got built. He didn't found America on the 10th Day either. For that matter, he didn't pack up in Moscow in 1917.

Humans need to take responsibility for their problems. They can't blame their "rejection of God" for them and thereby claim their problems are duly earned punishments from their all-loving Father. Because that means that if you just start praying hard enough, everything gets fixed.

No where, in any religion is it said that just "praying hard enough" fixes your life. You have to start doing what is right; which is a social issue and not a religious one for all the points of correlation between them. It won't matter if you worship the God of Abraham, Ganesh, or Bing Crosby if you instill some basic rules which all society has always agreed to:

1) Don't kill. 2) Be kind to each other.

For several thousand years, all religions agreed (including secular "religions" if you will) that these are pretty much good rules. For several thousand years, members of all these religions have whined that the world is going to hell; crime is up; marriage is in danger; our enemies are at the gate!!!!

For several thousand years, societies have continued to exist and improve.

When Romans worried the institution of marriage was threatened by allowing Christians to be married---its continued.

When Muslims feared the end of society as Christian bandits raided their holy cities because Allah had turned from them for impiety--they still survived and are now the world's fastest growing religion through the aid of a "Muslim" most considered quite heretical and still do.

When Beijing complained about crime as Western ideals swept their nation--Beijing managed to remain powerful and is now the major player in Asia.

When Detroit lambasted the rise of "secular radical Commies" in the early 20th century and that they'd undermine and destroy capitalism--ultimately Detroit became a major center of the world capitalist economy up until the 1970s and furnished the "capitalist system" with the weapons of war that got it through WWII.

So all in all, people worry to damned much.

If you really believe in God: even a little: you just pray and realize he's not about to punish you if you're following his words and being a good person.

If you don't really believe in God, then you think he's capable of letting you fuck up the world so badly that it'll all go to Hell and destroy all the good and innocent people and God wouldn't have ever had the brains to figure out a contingency plan to help save you pathetic sinners. Which, even for a Diest isn't possible.

If God==Good==Love==Ominiscient then the world, quite frankly will never get so fucked up it can't keep out of hell's grasp as long as one good person is around. To admit otherwise is to discredit the ability of God to love and care for the innocent of the world, or the good people of the world.

Of course, one version of the Christian Bible does mention that one day the world will fall into Hell and on that day God will just magically rescue all the good people during the Rapture. Good on ya' God, but the whiners really still need to relax because obviously the world falling into Hell is now a GOOD thing which will punish all the sinners (Just ask George Bush), and the whiners (assuming they're good) will all go straight up to Heaven as was planned from DAY ONE by God.

In other words, keep true to your own faith if you have one and leave the rest of the world to follow their own path.

*stares at all the long posts*

...yes...

Harlstar *stares at all the long posts*

tl;dr

Fixed.

Stein isn't a "cookie cutter" "neocon" either. I believe he recently published a statement joining the myriad people calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.

Me, I'm more concerned about getting to Nov. 8 ASAP and ending these damnable TV ads.

I hate politics.

[quote="OMGbearisdriving"]I hate politics.

Amen

I am pretty much libertarian left, but like a good slightly libertarian right-wing-economist simply because they appear to care more about the social repercussions of secular capitalism without being too religiously preachy.

The change in tone of the original post is VERY obvious and rather disturbing. What is a relatively light hearted lament at being a Jew at Christmas time turns into a rather frightening diatribe against secularism.

Thank you Howland for posting the urban myth page to clarify this.

As someone born and raised in Belfast, can I just say a big hell yeah to the first half there. Doesn't matter. Fighting over religion sucks. Politics also sucks. If your religion says 'love thy neighbour', then at least try to. I've never heard of any holy book, bible or otherwise, with clauses like 'love thy neighbour, saving that he be different from you, in which case thou shalt insult him and beat him up.' Doesn't matter if it's God, your mother or Bill and Ted, but there's a few basic things people really need to remember. Don't suck. Be nice to people. Help others. Give to charity. Dislike someone cos she's a whiny annoying bitch who just broke your best friend's heart, maybe, but not cos she's the wrong religion. Do what makes you happy, providing it doesn't make others unhappy. If you see a kid crying and clearly lost, try to help it. War is bad. Killing people is bad. Hurting people is bad....

Nothing too complex, but still seems to be forgotton far too often...

I think that Christians who persecute others aren't Christians. They're using it as a pretense, a disguise.

The true purpose of religion isn't categorization. It's to find purpose in one's life, to truly accept others for what they are. To love one another instead of hate. Those who fight or persecute in the name of religion do not represent -my- religion.

I believe that most religions have the same message: to live in harmony with others, love one another, and promote peace throughout the world.

I am a Christian, and I believe that the ways of Christ are not represented in the actions of those who fight in His name. A true Christian knows that one of the most important virtues is Forgiveness, something we've lost in our "blame others before yourself" society.

*rubs eyes at the post wondering where to begin....* and don't say "at the beginning"