One of the biggest sources of stress for the DM team is when players spread half-truths, lies, whines, complaints, and general bitching amongst themselves after encountering what they perceive to be "DM spice" but often times is just standard monsters. We absolutely welcome criticism or comments politely directed towards us, but I am quite tired of of the very small minority of players who react to adversity or challenge in such an overwhelmingly negative way and spread this sort of stuff around.

EfU is provided free of charge. Thousands of dollars, thousands of man hours, very considerable sacrifices are being made by quite a few people to provide this resource to the player-base. It is not for everyone. MMORPGs provide an inexpensive way to engage in light RP, probably superior quests than we have, no major set-backs, no risk of PvP-perma-death, and the assurances of never having to deal with DM possessed monsters. If you prefer NWN, there are lots of servers out there with tiny death penalties that may be more to your liking. If that sort of play-style is what you prefer in a video game, I fully encourage you to go ahead and play that way somewhere else with no hard feelings at all.

EfU is a server with an emphasis on developing characterization, IC conflict between characters, telling stories, and generally striving for as many "awesome" moments as possible. Part of that means that the server should be challenging, exciting, and dangerous. It is, as far as I'm concerned, the DM's responsibility to give players a chance to turn their characters into heroic or amazing figures. It is our responsibility to make playing here exciting and dangerous.

Are we perfect? Absolutely not. Do we need player feedback when a mistake is made? Absolutely yes. We will never seek to punish people in an IC way for OOC reasons. None of us enjoy killing characters, or strive to do so. If it seems your death was unfair, asking to discuss the matter with a DM (politely) is wholly fine. It's those players who get hostile that I am losing patience for.

I could go into this more, but I don't think it's necessary. I'd just like to publicly say for the record that I am tired of whining in lieu of polite questions or feedback. I am tired of players who find the idea of death for their character to be something OOC scary and to be avoided at all costs, and whose reaction or impulse is to blame DMs when so often it's their own failures or weaknesses. If you find yourself disliking the DMs on this server, then please remember you are a guest and do everyone a favor and leave.

The vast majority of players out there I have nothing but <3 for. For every malcontent, there are fifty players who I only wish I had more time to help them with their goals and help them have fun. To those players, I salute you for your maturity and good taste as well as the respect you demonstrate for what we're trying to do. I and the rest of the DMs will continue to do our best to make EfU as vibrant and enjoyable as possible, and if you've an idea for how to improve that please do let us know.

I hope I don't come off as angry. I'm really not, it is just exasperating to me to see these occasional issues come up when really they shouldn't be an issue at all.

For every malcontent out there, there are 50 more players who <3 you guys, too. ;)

I think it is important though that there are occasionally people who are unhappy. I don't like it when people start calling the DMs 'gods' or 'perfect', and it ought to be at least a little sobering at times to know there are those folks out there who don't think so. That said, you guys have always been great about that.

So I'm not sure what I'm saying other than <3. <3 the server. <3 the DM team. And <3 the players, and that even the people who dislike the server shouldn't be hated.

I am quite traveled when it comes to servers, and efU is unique in one major matter. In most servers, the DM's commune, decide what plots are going to happen, then they lay down the appropriate hints and such for players and lead them through the story.

In efU the DM's just go "Right. What are the players doing and what can we do to add to that?". And as such it has created a community that actually thinks for itself, is not lead by the hand and doesn't sniff round DM's for a cheap source of XP and gold. I have never seen a more involved or harder working DM team.

I probably sound like a complete brown nose, but I don't care. Much <3 guys, much <3. Except for Lado because he pwns me on Dawn of War.

Yep thats right nobody is perfect, D.m's and players alike we're all just people. Just because a d.m is in a position of power that the player is not doesnt really mean anything. It just enables them to weave a story with more realism than a player can.

Treat others as you'd treat yourself, respect is given when it's due on both sides.

As for death to be avoided, my opinion is that as if you were really there thats exactly what you'd be doing, avoiding death not seeking it knowing you're just going to be reborn. I think playing a a character as if death was something meaningful gives it far more weight. Death should be LESS often and more significant. Other mmorpg's have the idea that death is MORE often and less significant, which isnt my view at all. (WoW for example) And if death is MORE significant IT SHOULD be avoided. I dont think people appreciate losing their story hopes, just to become the niche on somebody else's weapon either. I think conflict is good, but getting to the point where one character dies so that another can live is missing the point of weaving the story. Not only that it trivialises the victim's efforts as a player. All your efforts in vain, I dont think anybody wants that.

Also it's human nature to treat people better that treat you well (whether or not it's faked) you have to be careful though not to have favourites and to treat everyone equally. That level 2 character is no different from that level 9 veteran behind the screen, in fact it could even be the same person. It can be a struggle to remain neutral when your emotions are screaming.

I'd just like to say although I havent always agreed with how things have been done every time, I really appreciate the effort that goes into this server from the d.m's and players alike. It makes the experience better for all thats what we're all here for.

If I thought somebody else was doing a job better I would go there, keep up the good work all. And people whoever you are (d.m or player) be decent to your fellow person (player or d.m)

Though a few of my RL friends only went EfU once then said, i mean no offence (they are also bigger nerds then i am...) "it sucks 'cos the minimum level for the underdark should be ten" unfortunatly, they didnt realise what a perfect DM team we have!

As for the "spice" a.k.a "love"... You guys add soooo much to the feeling of the underdark in so many ways just by droping in on a quest, you make otherwise boring i've-done-it-millions-of-times quests a whole new experience! And yu said "we arnt perfect" LIAR! You are the best and the most friendly-towards-players DMs i, and im sure everyone else, has ever encountered.

Howland, you should be a auther. How you came up with Escape from the Underdark is beyond me, its such a awsome idea mixed with a awsome follow through! Man, if you made this into a book you'd be rich... (however if you did the server would become overpopulated...) I am not sure how anyone could possibly complain to you, you are THE...

DMs, i love you guys. As i said in the above "you guys add so much!" By dropping in a few unexpected visitors you make the game so much fun and exciting rather then the same crap over and over, making EfU better then ALL other servers, Amia included and notice Amia is ful 24-7.

Though the XP loss is incredably annoying when you have just leveled who wants to be a high level all the time? Sure if your char is in a faction as a high position then maybe but still, maintaining your level and going back up is just excellent, adding a whole new feeling to the game!

Think i'll ace my english exame?

Just today my char had a nasty encounter on a DM-spiced quest and I have rarely been as satisfied. The enemy just kept coming, circled behind us, and generally interfered with every plan and strategy we came up with. When my char finally limped home to Sanctuary I was actually a little drained in real-life. My heart raced for a good 20 minutes at least (it may have been longer, I didn't dare look away from my screen). I literally used all the healing at my disposal as well as a large portion of my useful "trinkets". The reward and collected loot did not even come close to replacing what I lost, but I was happy all the same. The sense of satisfaction in clawing my way out of incredible odds is the only reward I really care about in the end. The others in my group may disagree (particularly the one that died), but I loved it.

Keep up the good work guys (and gals?). As has been said, most of us <3 you guys and your effort.

*brushes something smelly and brown off of his nose*

Yep one of the most fun times I had on here was running from a d.m possessing a monster a lot stronger than my character (who was left alone after the rest of the party fell).

I ran clear across the underdark with her in tow, when my character eventually made it into town thinking himself finally safe he sat down in the pub. and bam out of nowhere (invisibilty) the persuer burning hands some people sitting peacefully at a table . Needless to say the persuer didnt stay alive long against the group of resting players, but it was a great adrenaline rush that one.

I understand how you feel Howland, and personally I respect and appreacite this server and it's policy, the DM's and players. This is a great server, and yes, it might not be that for everyone, but it's not supposed to be. Our players are here because they like playing in this enviroment, and most of them, for what I know, have nothing but respect towards the server and DM's.

So, I'm just trying to say that you all do a great job of making this fun for the players, and other DM's as well. Keep up the good work.

Its simple, really. Being a DM is hard work. It is a completely different experience then being a Player. It falls on their shoulders to be the most helpful they can be to everyone on the server, every time to they log on. I think the Players have a tendency to expect the EFU DM's to live in a bubble. Everyone Expects them to be Perfect, no flaws or mistakes allowed. I'm personally very impressed at the amount of self-control I've seen in the DM crew here. DMing in RealLife is something that I love doing, but when I look at the challenges I run into in my own games, I can just imagine how that must scale and twist when adding 40 other players with uncontrollable die rolls, lag, and not having the ability to look at the other players emotions. Then people want you to be everywhere at once, and with a story in hand most of the time. -wow-

When I run games, my gratification does not come from having the NPC's win, trying to balance the event, furthering a single character's story at the expense of the others... It comes from the players reactions to all the work and guesswork I just finished doing. I DM to make the others people around my little table enjoy the time they spend there. Nothing makes me happier then when everything goes right, and the players all had a good time. That feeling is what makes the DMing aspect of the game enjoyable.

However, everything cant go right all the time. Sometimes the Dm's make a mistake, get distracted, an Npc's unexpected critical hit threw the tide of the battle, another player throws a wrench into the guesswork.... Lots of things can happen. And it hurts when you know something you tried to do, didnt help, or was not enjoyed. I would do what I could to fix it for everyone... The game is about fun, but it is governed by laws that allows a realistic story. You cant fix everything all the time. The Dm's have a hard job. And I respect them for it.

I'm a DM on another server and I can understand how frustrating it can be. I wanted only to say that I personally love DM spice. My biggest regret is that I can only play an hour or so a day and I tend to miss out on most of the DM spice. What I've seen has been simply terrific and I very much appreciate it, as well as the couple mulligans I've been given by DMs.

Be of good cheer. And remember that some wheels are just squeaky all the time.

We all feel angry when we're so close to finishing the damn quest then all of the sudden BOOM we hit a trap and die. But hey you're in the underdark.

But when dm's kill you i find myself bragging that i got sold or and killed in a shark pit. BUt hwo can blame me? IT was FRICKEN AWSOME

I appreciate you fellas.

Hear Hear!

Thomas_Not_very_wise We all feel angry when we're so close to finishing the damn quest then all of the sudden BOOM we hit a trap and die. But hey you're in the underdark.

But when dm's kill you i find myself bragging that i got sold or and killed in a shark pit. BUt hwo can blame me? IT was FRICKEN AWSOME

I've just got to say, this bear's repeating..... :roll:

I would agree with most of the posts above... The times i have given a little feedback i have always had a polite and 'positive' response, even if the DM didn't agree, at least they listened and explained why... Kudos to you all :)

I also think it is worth noting, that relative to a number of servers i have frequented the relationships between the DM's and Players on this server is by far the best i have come across. There seems very little 'cliquey' behaviour and alot of good RP and interaction, so Kudos to all us players as well :)

group hug! :D

I grow tired of hearing people bitching about DM interaction. The DMs here are very supportive, very approachable, and very willing to do a lot for players. The things they do are way above and beyond what you will find on other severs. People get very attached to their characters. This is understandable. But people get way too attached to loot. I dont know how many times I've heard "I had to use X amount of gold in potions...blah blah.....had to use X amount of items....blah blah....and the reward was little." I call Bullshit on that! It's a game people. If you die, you can make another character and that character will have loot too. It's not like its impossible to rebuild your wealth. Tangible items are not always the point. The items dont make the character. They may help and forge your identity to a point, but they are not who your character is. Your character will form relationships with other characters through out their existance. DM quests and DM spice will play a great role, dare I say a more important role than loot, in your character's development as a person as well as relations. For example: I was part of some DM spice lovingly sponsored by Caddies the other night. We were doing the Orog fort quest. He dropped an amazing amount of resistance on us. We were all shocked that we all survived. How did this happen? We worked together. We were a group that had worked with each other before. We knew each other's strengths and weaknesses. We worked as comrades. I honestly wasnt 100% sure it was spice until Caddies piped in at the end with a little description and some EXP reward. There was some fancy loot given out. Did I get it? No. Did my character have a use for it? No. It went to the person who could use it, and stepped up to turn the tide for us at a weak point in our attack. But there was a shit house of loot at the end. I have the screenies to prove it. Just normal junk and some nice interesting things. Did it make up for what I lost? Maybe not. Did it matter? No. Why? Because as characters we formed a bond that will be worth more than any long sword or magic ring. It is because of what the DMs do that we can have unexpected developments as characters. The story is important, not the inventory. And with ECL 2, experience is worth more than gold to me. The experience is more than a number. It's a reflection of good times and heated moments between the digital people we have crafted. This server was made to tell great stories, and you wouldnt have words on the next page of the book that is your character with out the efforts of the DMs.

I read Hooksword's thesis in its entirety. Let's look at a small bit, shall we:

Hookswords And with ECL 2, experience is worth more than gold to me. The experience is more than a number. It's a reflection of good times and heated moments between the digital people we have crafted. This server was made to tell great stories, and you wouldnt have words on the next page of the book that is your character with out the efforts of the DMs.

The first was a tiefling. The second was a drow. Both, for significant portions of their 'lives' on the server, were forced to work in partial or even complete solitude to accomplish their goals.

As a player, I've had my fill of people bitching to me about their lost inventory, gold and levels, be it over the forums, in game via tells or IRC. I don't mean the griping of friends. I mean random people with whom I've never interacted.

To this point, I've ignored the bitching, but I've basically let the self-appointed victims rant at me and tried to helpfully suggest *gasp* talking (rationally) to a DM, if that would help with character development.

I now understand that sometimes, being "kind" and being "stupid" can be confused.

You see, my third character is human.

Until this human character, I had absolutely no idea how generous scripted quests were for XP and gold.

This has drastically changed my opinion about the bitching: should you loose XP, gold, alignment points, items or even your character due to PvP or spawns you walked right into, suck it up. This is a game.

If rules were broken, take screenshots if you can and calmly bring it up with a DM. I have never found the DMs here to be anything but approachable. Such cannot be said for many other servers.

See Howland?

LOOOOVE :D

I agree, whiners should leave this server.

This was not supposed to be an easy server, nor was it supposed to be a totally DM-xenophobic world like CoA (IMHO) where DM's hide and try not to do shit with the playerbase.

This is where the DM's try to be hands on, it's a free, hobby driven server. These guys don't get paid, but yet they field technical questions, quest issues, restore bugged equipment, true rez our asses, move monsters away from our bodies and a whole bunch of other shit that no other server in the world does.

Anyone who complains needs to have a reality check.

DM-spice/unique quest scripting is a great thing. Don't ever look badly on it, because almost always if you encounter this, the rewards for suvival (IF you survive that is, which is the point) are great.

Either accept the rules/social structure here, or get the hell out.

[quote="djspectre"]Either accept the rules/social structure here, or get the hell out.

Amen

Either accept the rules/social structure here, or get the hell out.

I don't think this is quite the message that Howland was looking to put out. Never have I heard a DM on EfU say that the rules are unopen to discussion, or that their word is final, and no player should speak their opinion on it.

Personally, one thing I enjoy about Escape from the Underdark, is that people are so able to discuss what they find to be the problems with the server. Pretending things are perfect gets us nowhere towards improving the server; Likewise, simply accepting things as is will only serve to let the Server stagnate.

People shouldnt "accept the rules/social structure, or get the hell out". That's almost tyranical. They should simply voice their objections rationally, and open mindedly, without making up grossly exaggerated, or blatantly false claims and spreading them around.

Edit: Typo.

Howland I'd just like to publicly say for the record that I am tired of whining in lieu of polite questions or feedback.

djspectre Either accept the rules/social structure here, or get the hell out.

This topic is meant to discourage people from whining to other players instead of discussing issues directly with the DMs. We are not trying to tell people that our word is absolute law, just that we prefer that issues with us and our actions be brought up with us. What angers me and other members of the DM team is when people spread negative sentiment amongst the playerbase without ever discussing the issues and complaints with us directly. This is not us against you. We're just trying to have a good time.

In conclusion, we do not want you to just accept the rules or get out. We want you to have fun, and if you have an issue, talk to us about it, instead of whining to everyone but us.

Right. Hope that was clear.

My comment was meant as a 'I'm really sick of bitching too' sorta comment.

People complain because they find it hard or can't get away with foolish playing.

I am sick of hearing it too.

I'm glad we have the teammates (DM's) that we do.

There is only <3 for Howland & Co.

If I have a problem with something I'll voice it, and I have done and will continue to do so, even though I usually get backhanded for stepping out of line. I get backhanded for even making suggestions, which are just that.. suggestions, by the more trollish forum goers here. I'm used to it, I have a thick skin now, you build up callouses after enough trials. I accept it and it doesnt stop me, because I like this place and anywhere I can see an improvement i'll say so. Its when I shut up and not comment, not suggest anything , not try and make the place better to play for people , then i'll either be 100% content or I'd have lost my ability to care for the server and it's population. The first being something not very likely and the second being something I dont want to see happen.

As for bitching, some of it is justified, some of it is not. It's another fact of life, you dont have to read it or take it on board and let it become a tumour. You should just sift through it to remove the emotive rant from the genuine points. It's a difficult task to accept criticism in a neutral way, we're all human and our egos are inextricably linked to our actions, but that doesnt mean it should never be levied.

Metro ate my baby.

Admittidly when I first joined the server I was skeptical of dm spice. That however, was mostly due to bad experiences (the first few dms spices involving me resulted in death), this was only a first impression though. My advice to help players avoid the mindset of "dm spice, beware" would be to be very careful regarding new players. Now that I've had alot more dm spice I can honestly say some of the best things that have happened to me and my characters happened due to DM intevention on a quest.

Nothing beats killing old bignose and making a comment about it being too easy only to have bignose get right back up and beat you down.

either have constuctive critism or have fun and stop complainging or get out. period.

[quote="Thomas_Not_very_wise"]either have constuctive critism or have fun and stop complainging or get out. period.

Amen

I think personally that too much "behind the back" talking is poisonous and dangerous, because then anyone that starts to believe such gets paranoid - you start seeing DM interactivity where there IS none - such as a random spawn in the wilderness, and when there definitely is, blaming the DM for singling you out if you happen to die, when most of the time (particularly last night in my case, I mean, wow so many lemminglike PC's!) they're doing everything in their power bar the heal tool to save your ass!

Poor Nuke I was on that quest and yes, we were pretty suicidal.

Oh look, umber hulks, Mindflayers, ogres, minotaurs, beholders. PILE IN!!!

Not to mention getting pwned by headless zombies. So yeah, we do make DM's lives hell.

On a side note, nice comeback on the Quest last night, great fun

I can say that in my DM days I never set out to kill someone. I set out to make a story. Occasionally you die, and that's just your big chance to come back stronger. *or weaker if you choose it*

Give these guys a break. DMing is hard work. Even if you think you'd be the perfect DM, it's a whole other world on the other side, believe me.

My largest problem with rumours of 'DMs setting out to kill people' permeating the playerbase, is that DMs may feel that they have to tone down the level of difficulty purely to appease the dissatisfied groups and the naysayers contained therein.

In my experience the majority of deaths that occur during DM quests or standard quests with DM spice, usually occur due to player stupidity and/or lack of foresight. It's a shame that people need to lay the blame of their own pitfalls and shortcomings at the feet of a group of people who, for all intents and purposes, are doing the playerbase a service.

I overflow with less than three.

dm's don't set out to kill you. if ya think they do you belong in an asylum so your crappy ideas don't infect anyone else grrrr.

I was on the quest where a lot of people got 'killed'- I did, but I came back and RPd it like I was hanging from the cliff by my fingernails...which was plausible enough considering where I was standing and that what got me was the Bodak death ray at the absolute limit of how far it shot out of the creature.

Nuclear was really great to each of us (or me anyway) and I have to say that he told us at one point that he needed to go afk for a few minutes and explicitly warned us he wouldnt be able to shepherd us for a while (said "Don't die") but being the impatient souls we are...off we went into some evil temple without any real plan.

If anyone complained about the slaughter that ensued, I just cant' imagine taking them seriously! :shock:

Evil Bodak Death Ray <.<

lazycat_1984 I was on the quest where a lot of people got 'killed'- I did, but I came back and RPd it like I was hanging from the cliff by my fingernails...which was plausible enough considering where I was standing and that what got me was the Bodak death ray at the absolute limit of how far it shot out of the creature.

Nuclear was really great to each of us (or me anyway) and I have to say that he told us at one point that he needed to go afk for a few minutes and explicitly warned us he wouldnt be able to shepherd us for a while (said "Don't die") but being the impatient souls we are...off we went into some evil temple without any real plan.

If anyone complained about the slaughter that ensued, I just cant' imagine taking them seriously! :shock:

I think my Nicki was on this quest too. She was the ONLY person to survive the evil bodak death ray because of her ridiculously high charisma. Too bad she then had to run screaming from it when it resorted to tearing at her with its claws. Not the brightest girl... she coulda just downed an invis potion, but she was far too emotional from all the death.

I would recomend players attempting to DM a game themselves, it allows you to see how hard it can be to maintain control somtimes.

I played a dm for a one-off module for another party, the scripted quests were finished, so I decided to set up a basic "go and find treasure" scenario, where a monster would come, attack the party, then back off, offering to leave the village in peace provided they could hand over a staff south of the area. Unfortunately, the thing got out ogf hand, I had accidently set it to invincible, so the "death" button did not work, and it kinda killed ALL the PC's (and NPC's) before I figured out what was wrong, even then, I had to summon 3 copper dragons and watch them deal 0 damage ach before figuring it out.

Okay, this will be the most religious thing i ever say:

For those who dare to talk badly of the DMs

"JUDAS"

(for those who didnt just get out of a religion test, Judas is a sick bastard who betrayed the christian religious figure.)